It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

2Thewaters · Jul 14, 2014

Most OSAS never studied the bible or read it, they have lists of verses.
I have disproved them dozens of times quite easily and can do it in my sleep and always the same texts come up

o well
I think eventually someone will actully read their Bible from all this

the whole tenor of the bible is

you think you are secure and you fall

nicodemous thought he was in and Jesus told him
Nico
you arent going to heaven that way

blew him out of the water

but

we are your FRINEDS
we WANT YOU TO GO TO HEAVEN

NOW is the time for water blowing out of.

it will be too late later when all those who have been told and told andtold they are going, they hear this

Lord Lord how come we cant come?
well I never knew you and you kept ignoring the admit requirement and kept right on sinning

why
then it wil be too late!

so

carry on

eventually they will actually read their Bibles
Cain, 8 billion prefloodites, Babylon Judas, Saul
samson, aedekiah hezekiah Athilia all the bad guys, haman, name them
everyone thought they were doing right
and they most all got lost.

2Thewaters · Jul 14, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Bible is clear
If you do right wont you be accepted?
salvation comes from Jesus blood and you are justified

but the Commandments are sanctification

and no one goes without both
no one.

here are they which keep the COMMANDMENTS of God AND the faith of Jesus

everyone claims they have the faith of JEsus
but no one cares of the other condition.

soooooo
continue on
maybe this thread will hit 2000 posts but if one person actually READS THEIR BIBLE from all this
it will be worth it

Atwood · Jul 14, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

False teachings are those contrary to scripture. One type of false teaching is based on religious tradition contrary to scripture. Your teaching is an example; call it Sola Cassiana.

Denial that Christ is the Savior and making Him a mere chance-giver is a false teaching not based on scripture.

Any teaching based on the Word of God is orthodox.

Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God said, . . .
And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,

This people honoreth me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.

. . . (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands diligently, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders; and when they come from the marketplace, except they bathe themselves, they eat not; and many other things there are, which they have received to hold, . . . .)
And the Pharisees and the scribes ask him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with defiled hands? And he said unto them, Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
This people honoreth me with their lips,
But their heart is far from me.

But in vain do they worship me,
Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition. For Moses said, . . . ; making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do.

Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:. . . .

knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers; but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:

Dear Cassian, you oppose yourself.
Trust the Lord Jesus as your only & sufficient Savior.

Find your security in the One Who shed His blood to buy you out & set you free.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His children from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 14, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

2Thewaters said:

I think what you are saying Waters, is the Galatian heresy; and one big purpose of Galatians is to refute the notion that once you are saved by faith, then you proceed to live the Christian life by obeying commandments. I am not objecting to obeying the Lord as a way to demonstrate that we love Him; what I object to is the thought that after being saved by faith, then we go on to live the Christian life by this supposed engine of power: Our will exerted to do the commandments. I object to finding the power for the Christian life on such a basis. Moreover, I see Romans 7 as the failed laboratory on that method.

The Bible gives a different approach, Waters:

Romans:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith to faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

It starts with faith & continues by faith.

Galatians:

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.
O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified? This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

Col 2:6

As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith,

We must live the Christian life the same way that we were saved; we must trust the Lord Jesus and thus enjoy the power of the Holy Spirit, not to the Romans 7 route to defeat:

Romans 7:

I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died . . . I am carnal, sold under sin.

Atwood · Jul 14, 2014

2Thewaters said:

Waters, are you bragging on yourself?
What is your proof that those who believe in Eternal Security never read the Bible? I have read it through from Gen-Rev times beyond my counting. One year I read through and marked all passages on salvation, including those which are not about salvation, but used by opponents.

How many times have you read it through? Have you marked all the passages?

Look back at your post and note how you do not quote even one verse to prove anything, though you have a signature passage, with Ezekiel misspelled which suggest 2 possible things:
1) You are not familiar enough with scripture to know how to spell the books' names;
2) You do not have the Bible knowledge to realize that Ezekiel is a theomorphic name that must end in the suffix -el (God's name). The post is all you, Waters. As such it proves nothing.

Cassian · Jul 14, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Atwood said:

I think that is what false means. Contrary to what scriptrue means. However, false teachings are based on scirpture but always man's interpretations as you have exhibited abundantly. The fact you are so adamently claiming they are scriptural proves your oconcept is not correct.
Yet, your view has never been the meaning of scripture from the beginning as it has been preserved by the Holy Spirit in time. It has already been amply shown that OSAS is NOT the meaning of scripture, but a man made theory.

Every false teacher, just ask any Jehovah Witness, will claim that their interpretation is scriptural. They sound just like you do with OSAS.
The ONLY tradition that is being referenced here is your tradition. Because it is a tradition, you cannot find any scriptural evidence that the early Church believed and taught OSAS as a doctrine of the Church, nor has it to this day.

Atwood · Jul 14, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Cassian said:

Take a look at your post, Cassian. It is Sola Cassiana. Repeating your party line proves nothing. You need scripture.

As to the JW's, I think they are like most cults and your denomination: they say they believe the Bible, but in fact they only believe it as their organization says what it means.

But the Lord Jesus did not appeal to religious tradition; he proved directly from God's Word: "It is written" for Him settled the argument, and that despite He was God and a prophet.

My POV is OSS = once saved, saved! The outrageous idea that if you are saved, well you are then saved! Rocket Science!

The doctrine of eternal security was taught by the NT. And it is found in the early Church. I would claim those who believed it as likely fellow members with myself in the body of Christ; and I dismiss those who disbelieved it as heretics. Being part of an ecclesiastical organization supported by the Roman Empire is an indication that such men were not in the Church.

Your theory that Eternal Security was not found in the early Church has now been shown to be unprovable. The belief is ancient. So give up on that one. Let us focus on the Word of God.

Here is my latest piece of evidence.

< ps 138
thy right hand will save me.
Jehovah will perfect that which concerns me:
Thy lovingkindness, O Jehovah, endureth forever;

Heb 11:19ff

And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,

Isaiah 26:12
Jehovah, thou wilt ordain peace for us; for thou hast also wrought all our works for us.

Eph 2
but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Philip 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

To all who have written Him off as chance-giver,
Give it up, rest in the Savior; let Him do the saving. Come to Him as a sinner, repenting of dismissing Him as a chance-giver; trust Him to do it!

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Atwood · Jul 14, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

2Thewaters said:

Well waters, take a look at Mat 4 to see how the Lord Jesus argued. Did he state truths & quote the Bible out of context to prove them?

Of course anyone who cares is welcome to check context like the noble Bereans.

Cassian · Jul 15, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Atwood said:

this is a quote from your statement above. Why do you not follow this statement, scriptual and a direct denial of OSAS. You have some misunderstanding that this supports OSAS/ES and it does not. It is as direct a refution of OSAS as there can be in scripture.

OSAS is not based on faith. One time faith, a single affirmation of faith that saves one finitely, thus you claim one is saved, yet scripture NEVER states one is saved finitely by initial faith. It is clearly that we are being saved THROUGH faith.
Thus the death knell of OSAS is that when one loses faith, does not repent, does not confess their sins, they have separated themselves from God and if they remain in that state, they cannot inherit eternal life. That is scriptural Truth, as delievered to the saints in the beginning.

so, far you have yet to find a text that confirms man can guarantee his faith, or that God enforces man's faith. You need one or both of these in order to have OSAS/ES.

ES is scriptural because it is declaring that believers will attain eternal life. But it does not guarantee that a believer will remain faithful, which is the real meaning of OSAS. Many believers have fallen, as scripture proclaims thus they no longer are believes and do not fall under the promise to believers. Very simple to understand and follow thorugh scripture.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Atwood commented on how to live the Christian LIfe:

"It starts with faith & continues by faith."

Cassian said:

False Cassian, I was not discussing how to obtain eternal life. Eternal life is something that is attained the moment one trusts Christ as Savior.
Eternal life is something Christ gives His sheep, and they do not perish. Having a new nature & Eternal Life (security) does not obviate the need to trust the Lord in concrete situations, nor does it ensure that we never sin in this life.

As I posted, neither salvation to being born again, nor living the Christian life, is lived on the power of exerting one's will to do commandments.

If the Christian life begins & continues by faith, that says nothing about "losing salvation" or failing to obtain eternal life. There is no refutation of eternal security in that. And no verse in the Bible speaks of losing salvation.

Now you run on making dogmatic assertions without quoting one verse of scripture. This is Sola Cassiana, and falls like a thud.

No verse ever says that a man who believes in the Lord Jesus as His Savior for eternal life ever stops believing in Christ as His Savior for eternal life. And you don't quote one.

Back to Soteriology 101: INSTANT SALVATION

Instant Salvation in Past Tense

“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)

th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)

Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)

Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)

Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.

In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.

[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9

Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.

he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)

The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.

Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.

Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.

he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)

It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.

Soteriology 102
INTRO TO DOCTRINE OF SALVATION (SOTERIOLOGY)

A. IMPORTANCE OF CORRECTNESS

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

B. TOTAL DEPRAVITY OF MAN Rom 1-3

Much of our understanding of salvation is influenced by our understanding the man is totally depraved. There is none who does good, no not one. Even the ploughing of the unsaved farmer expresses his sinfulness because of his selfish motive, not done to glorify God. Total Depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he cud be, but that all of his being is affected by sin & nothing he does is good before God. < Rom 3: "There is none that doeth good, no not one."

C. GOD'S PROVISION IS TOTAL & COMPLETE

On the cross Christ said, "It is finished."

Romans 8 ends with an unbreakable chain:
"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Romans 8: "He who spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things."

Gal: "Grace to you..from God the Father & our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, THAT HE MIGHT DELIVER US OUT OF THIS PRESENT EVIL AGE, according to the will of our God & Father"

D. 3 TENSES OF SALVATION: past, present, future.

1. Past Salvation.
Believers were saved from the guilt & penalty of sin.
The Christian can rightly say after He trusts Christ as savior, "I was saved."
2 Tim 1:8-9 For God did not give us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power & love & discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, not of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who SAVED us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose & grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

Eph 2 "God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead thru our trespasses, made us alive together w/ Christ (by grace you have been saved) & raised us up w/ him & made us to sit w/ him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED thru faith; & that [salvation] not of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not of works that no man should glory.

2. Present Salvation:
We have deliverance from the Power of Sin.
1 Cor 1:18: ""For the word of the cross is to them who perish foolishness; but to us who ARE BEING SAVED it is the power of God."

2 Cor 2:15: " For we are a sweet savor of Christ to God, in them WHO ARE BEING SAVED, and in them who arfe perishing; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God. But as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, we speak in Christ."

While a depraved child of Adam inevitably sins, a born-again Christian does not have to sin. A way of escape is always made for him. 1 Cor 10:13: There has no temptation taken you but such as man can bear; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

3. Future Salvation:
We shall be saved from the presence of indwelling Sin, be glorified, and live in bliss with the Lord forever.

But God commendS his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life;

Rom 8 He Who spared not His Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things.

This, beloved, is eternal security!

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Butch5 · Jul 15, 2014

Atwood, if eternal life is attained the moment one believes, why do Christians die?

konroh · Jul 15, 2014

Butch5, eternal life is spiritual salvation, spiritual life, a quality of life that continues into the next. Don't misunderstand, Jesus said "He who believes has eternal life", this is referring to being saved in the afterlife. Of course we all die physically, body separated from soul, but eternal life means we will never be separated spiritually from God.

Cain--talked with God after killing Abel, hard to say that he wasn't a believer in God, no reason not to see him in heaven
Saul--overcome by evil spirits, kingdom taken away, but clearly showed faith in God, just showed lack of sanctification, no reason not to see him in heaven

Samson--all great acts done by him a part of his relationship and faithfulness to God, failed miserably but also showed faith in God in the last suicidal act of his life, he'll be in heaven

Hezekiah--are you serious? It is said that he's the greatest king since king David, showed a failure in his life but given 15 more years of life through his repentance, he'll definitely be in heaven

Hell is not for those who think they're doing right but are really wrong, hell is for those who refuse to believe in God and accept the free gift of salvation offered freely through the death of Jesus. It has nothing to do with works, either before or after belief. It's by grace through faith, faith is the means, not the continued means, the established means. The Greek is clear.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

Butch5 said:

< 1 John 5

He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in him: he who believes not God has made him a liar; because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who has not the Son of God has not the life. These things have I written to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God

< John 11

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he who believes on me, though he die, yet he shall live; and whosoever lives and believes on me shall never die. Do you believe this?

If any have relegated the Savior to being a mere chance-giver, you are urged to repent, and to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

konroh said:

Well, konroh, that's there first time I ever read any such opinion as that. I can't fault you for lack of originality. I recall the Hebrews says that Abel by faith offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. And isn't there something negative about running the way of Cain?

One thing about Saul, it says that YHWH gave him another heart, which might just refer to being brave. And Samuel up from the dead told him that next day Saul would be with Samuel. Some of Saul's sons have idolatrous names, like Ish-baal (Ishbosheth). Maybe we blame that on his wife? Did Saul call her a rebellious woman?

He is in the Hall of Fame in Heb 11. I don't think of his death as suicide, but as sacrificial, like jumping on a grenade would be with a group of soldiers.

Yes, a great man of God, who goofed a time or two. I think the 15 more years may have been a blunder; Manasseh was born in that time. However, Manasseh is a real study, the worst most wicked King of Judah, yet marvelously saved before he died.

Amen! or if you are female,
Awomen!

konroh · Jul 15, 2014

I understand going the way of Cain is wrong. He obviously offered a bad sacrifice and murdered, but then he talked with God saying his punishment was too great, and God responded. Are we to believe that Cain didn't believe in God? All that is required is faith. While Cain certainly presents no great example, he certainly knew God, talked with Him, and believed Him. Whether He trusted God as the source of His salvation is not abundantly clear, yet there is no evidence that he did not, and a surprising amount of evidence that he had a relationship with God, albeit he blundered greatly.

The fascinating study to me is Solomon, it appears he was wise, wrote Song of Solomon, Eccl. Proverbs, and yet was led into idolatry by his wives. Did he stop believing in God? It appeared that he may have before he died, and yet no way is he not in heaven. This is where I think you and I differ. I absolutely believe in ES, because that's God. What I do not believe is that man is always faithful, we are strongly urged to be, but it is not a given. There are those who are shipwrecked in their faith, who "believe for a while", who fall away. They are still justified and glorified, but they lose out on being sanctified. They are saved, but they have fallen. We can't interpret the Bible only one way, clearly man fails many times, but God is faithful. If we deny Him, He will deny us [rewards], if we are faithless, He remains faithful.

Butch5 · Jul 15, 2014

Atwood said:

< 1 John 5

He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in him: he who believes not God has made him a liar; because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who has not the Son of God has not the life. These things have I written to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God

< John 11

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he who believes on me, though he die, yet he shall live; and whosoever lives and believes on me shall never die. Do you believe this?

If any have relegated the Savior to being a mere chance-giver, you are urged to repent, and to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Which of these two passages says a believer cannot stop believing?

Butch5 · Jul 15, 2014

konroh said:

Butch5, eternal life is spiritual salvation, spiritual life, a quality of life that continues into the next. Don't misunderstand, Jesus said "He who believes has eternal life", this is referring to being saved in the afterlife. Of course we all die physically, body separated from soul, but eternal life means we will never be separated spiritually from God.

Cain--talked with God after killing Abel, hard to say that he wasn't a believer in God, no reason not to see him in heaven
Saul--overcome by evil spirits, kingdom taken away, but clearly showed faith in God, just showed lack of sanctification, no reason not to see him in heaven

Samson--all great acts done by him a part of his relationship and faithfulness to God, failed miserably but also showed faith in God in the last suicidal act of his life, he'll be in heaven

Hezekiah--are you serious? It is said that he's the greatest king since king David, showed a failure in his life but given 15 more years of life through his repentance, he'll definitely be in heaven

Hell is not for those who think they're doing right but are really wrong, hell is for those who refuse to believe in God and accept the free gift of salvation offered freely through the death of Jesus. It has nothing to do with works, either before or after belief. It's by grace through faith, faith is the means, not the continued means, the established means. The Greek is clear.

I'm sorry but I don't know what spiritual salvation is. According to the Scriptures the Christian hope is the resurrection, that is of the body, that is eternal life. I also don't agree with this idea that we will see someone in heaven, where is that found in Scripture?

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

konroh explained:

Butch5, eternal life is spiritual salvation, spiritual life, a quality of life that continues into the next. Don't misunderstand, Jesus said "He who believes has eternal life", . . . Of course we all die physically, body separated from soul, but eternal life means we will never be separated spiritually from God.

In response, Butch expressed "sorrow" & made a claim, but gave no Bible proof:

Butch5 said:

ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

John 3: "that which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Butch look at your post to see that it is not according to the Scriptures, but according to Butch. Where is any proof?

The salvation of the two (spirit & body) are not mutually exclusive: body & spirit.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Eternal Security: He will do it. In the topic of salvation, the Lord Jesus is the One who does it. Jesus saves. We (if we trust Him as Savior) are the savee, the one saved.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Any who has imagined that the Lord Jesus is a mere chance-giver, any who regards him as a mere chance-giver, is urged to repent and trust Him as Savior.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

Originally Posted by Atwood

< 1 John 5

He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in him: he who believes not God has made him a liar; because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who has not the Son of God has not the life. These things have I written to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God

< John 11

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he who believes on me, though he die, yet he shall live; and whosoever lives and believes on me shall never die. Do you believe this?

If any have relegated the Savior to being a mere chance-giver, you are urged to repent, and to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Butch5 said:

Regarding "he who believes" now, it is said that he has eternal life. Eternal life is eternal. He who believes has eternal life.

(John 10: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.)

Where does the Bible ever say that a man who believes in the Lord Jesus for salvation to eternal life, stops that belief?

One may not invent a category and then affirm it by claiming that the Bible never denies the made-up category. You may as well argue that if the Bible never says that the sun cannot turn green that proves it can turn green.

The scripture is so clear on eternal security that to deny it is tantamont to calling God a liar.

He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in him: he who believes not God has made him a liar; because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave to us eternal life,

Why oppose yourself? Eternal life is yours if only you will trust Christ as your only & sufficient Savior. Cease any delusion that He is a mere chance-giver. Trust Him as Savior, the giver of eternal life who guarantees the believer not to perish.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

konroh said:

Well konroh, you have presented what seems to me to be a novel theory.

Solomon must be the wisest fool that ever lived. There is nothing in the Bible about Solomon stopping believing in YHWH. In fact I know of no place in the Bible where a persons believes in (trusts in) the Lord Jesus for eternal life and then stops believing. This is a made-up category. And I have read the Bible from cover to cover many times, and also marked all the passages on salvation.

As to Solomon, the way to study his relevance to salvation is to read his story and mark any and all passages that are relevant, and keep down the speculation (so far as doctrine is concerned; we can hardly help speculating in fact).

Now konroh,
our opinions are not of much worth unless sustained by scripture.
Saying "clearly" this or that doesn't establish doctrine.

Note that the verse you just referred to does not mention "salvation." Of course man fails. In many things we all stumble. But that does not prove that a man who trusts the Lord Jesus as Savior for eternal life, ever stops that trust.

We have the example of Peter, for whom the Lord Jesus prayed that his faith fail not. The Lord Jesus is the author & perfecter of our faith. He who has been (as it were) bathed spiritually, is "all clean" and remains so. However, his feet need washing.

Apostasy is a fact -- but it is explained in 1 John 2 as proof that someone was never part of the Body of Christ.

Christians can sin in horrible ways, as the guy in 1 Cor did, fornicating with his father's wife. Yet the Lord chastens His children to correct them and guarantee that they stay saved.

The passages that teach eternal security are many and constitute absolute proof. The so-called problem passages generally do not even mention salvation, and never say "lose salvation" nor "lose faith in the Lord Jesus as Savior to eternal life." Part of the misunderstanding comes from people taking passages on judgment (where salvation is not mentioned) and trying to imply something about salvation with them. Judgment is by works; salvation is by grace through faith.

Now for the audience:

If any has downgraded the Lord Jesus to a mere chance-giver, let that person repent & trust the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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