When does the rapture occur?

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nathan3

Guest
#81
It is true that none of us are perfect... :eek:

It is also true that my previous post was not directed at you specifically.

Do you see - how that, without using your name - my previous post was aimed "at the crowd" (at large) and not at you specifically - even after having made reference to something you said? - yet, this post is "talking to you" specifically?

all:

Remember: A quote is a quote is a quote... <----- Click

I am not trying to criticize anyone - just trying to get you thinking... ;)

:)
Nah, i did not take it personally., i was just kidding really with the OOOO, part.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#82
It is true that none of us are perfect... :eek:

It is also true that my previous post was not directed at you specifically.

Do you see - how that, without using your name - my previous post was aimed "at the crowd" (at large) and not at you specifically - even after having made reference to something you said? - yet, this post is "talking to you" specifically?

all:

Remember: A quote is a quote is a quote... <----- Click

I am not trying to criticize anyone - just trying to get you thinking... ;)

:)
The above words 'previous post' were actually referring to post #74; however, it also applies to post #76 as well...

:)
 
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nathan3

Guest
#83
The above words 'previous post' were actually referring to post #74; however, it also applies to post #76 as well...

:)

you dont expect me to count every post untill i get to 74 ? i dont think they are even numbered.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#85
Elin said:
nathan3 said:
The scriptures don't show rapture. You need to stretch the scriptures to fit it. and it will not fit, Unless you ignore all the subject matter those verses are used in.
Greek------>Latin--->English

harpazo--->rapio--->rapture

1Th 4:16-17 - "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of he archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first (i.e., before the rapture).
After that, we who are still alive and who are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

The only "stretching to fit" and "ignoring the subject matter those verse are used in" is your own.

It couldn't be any plainer.
your not going to get a subject in that verse. the subject starts in verse 13..... Not 16.....
And?

The subject is the resurrection, which evidently they understood Paul to be saying they would all live to see.
So when some died, they had the question: will those who have died have a part in that great day (of v.15)?

Paul's answer is: the dead would not miss the great day, for they will rise first, and then all believers will be raptured together.

Paul's 2nd Letter has to be listened to also... What people are doing with rapture, is try, to build something from nothing.
If you're indicating that Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians to correct their view that they had missed the rapture, that is nonsense.

That means they thought Paul, Silas and Timothy had missed it too, because Silas and Timothy are the ones who delivered the first letter to answer their question.
Silas and Timoth then reported back to Paul the Thessalonians' thinking that the final days had begun and the rapture was imminent, which occasioned Paul's second letter.

But theThessalonians did not think the rapture had come, and they had missed it, along with Paul, Silas and Timothy.
That is not what Paul was addressing in his second letter.

Rather, having answered in his first letter their question about the dead having no part in the great day, he then in his second letter addresses their misunderstanding that the final days had already begun and the rapture was imminent.

He tells them the final days have not begun, because they will not begin until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

Both letters to the Thessalonians are about the rapture.
They couldn't be any plainer.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#87
short answer: AFTER THE TRIBULATION!
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other .
 
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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#88
Listen for a really, really LOUD TRUMP............look towards the Eastern Sky..........if it SPLITS............

:)

seeya!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#89
You know that I agree with your conclusion for sure as it is the truth.......!

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#90
Short answer to the thread title?

When I tired to lift a rock that was too heavy for me. Had to go get one of those new fangled mesh patches put in. Fixed it right well but left an awful scar.


You may deduce from this that I do not believe in a secret rapture as formulated by Francisco Ribera in the 1500's and popularized by John Nelson Darby around 1830.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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#91
Christ returns after the Tribulation (AND NOT BEFORE); He is pretty clear about this. However, when Christ returns He gathers His ELECT. HE doesn't "rapture" anyone at this point. Please review the passages where we are told specifically that it is Christ coming. You will see no mention of a resurrection or a translation of any living person. All you see is a gathering of a specific group - HIS ELECT!!

Mat 13:

30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "

Mat 24:

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:

27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Luke 3:17:

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.

Luke 11:23:

He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

John 11:

52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Eph 1:

10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.

2 Thes 2:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

Heb 9:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.



GATHERED DOES NOT EQUAL RAPTURED

God Raptures and He does it in 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thes 4:13-17
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,372
6,637
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#92
......oh, did I mention..........not soon enough for me........... :)

YEA GOD!
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#93
Christ returns after the Tribulation (AND NOT BEFORE); He is pretty clear about this. However, when Christ returns He gathers His ELECT. HE doesn't "rapture" anyone at this point. Please review the passages where we are told specifically that it is Christ coming. You will see no mention of a resurrection or a translation of any living person. All you see is a gathering of a specific group - HIS ELECT!!

2 Thes 2:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

GATHERED DOES NOT EQUAL RAPTURED
". . .caught up together. . .in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" does. (1Th 4:17)

The "gathering together to Him" is the "caught up together. . .to meet the Lord" in the air.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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#94
". . .caught up together. . .in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" does. (1Th 4:17)

The "gathering together to Him" is the "caught up together. . .to meet the Lord" in the air.
Nope. They are separate events. Christ returns with a select group called His ELECT. God returns with ALL SAINTS. They return to different places at different times but both with wrath. There are signs which precede the Return of Christ. There is no warning when God comes. Both come by surprise to those not watching and nobody knows the hour.


Christ:

Rev 20:4-5:

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Jude 1:


14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

Mat 24:

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thes 2:1-3
:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...

Rev 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

Rev 6:

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

God, the Father
:


Zech 14:

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

1 Thes 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Rev 16
:

1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."

14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Rev 20:

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.


We all meet together at the end.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-- "The Lord is one," And His name one.

28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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#95
Elin said:
". . .caught up together. . .in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" does. (1Th 4:17)

The "gathering together to Him" is the "caught up together. . .to meet the Lord" in the air.
Nope. They are separate events.
Christ returns with a select group called His ELECT.
God returns with ALL SAINTS.
The ELECT are ALL the SAINTS.

They return to different places at different times but both with wrath. There are signs which precede the Return of Christ. There is no warning when God comes. Both come by surprise to those not watching and nobody knows the hour.

1 Thes 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
"Him" is Jesus.

Your uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles is not in agreement with certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

Your theology drives your erroneous hermeneutic, instead of hermeutics driving theology,
and accounts for all your multiplication of events and things which are the same.

In order for your theology to work with the NT, there must be
two second comings, one of Jesus, and another manufactured one of the Father who is invisible,
two first resurrections,
two last trumpets,
two bodies of Christ,
two temporal Messianic kingdoms,
two final world battles,
two final judgments.

Is your understanding of the NT so paltry as to allow such contra-NT notions?
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#96
Elin, You are not taking seriously and honestly ALL of God's PROGRESSIVE Revelation, "progressive rev," in ALL the Scriptures, nor taking a serious study of the Book of Revelation, which is God's FINAL word on prophecy. You are messed up on Daniel, The four Kingdom are SEParate kingdoms, named by Daniel, and Dan. 9, make it clear the the "little horn, Kingdom will , some how be an extension of the fourth one., at the "end". Rev. mentions the 7th/ 8th king that will be the LAST king before Jesus comes again to RULE this earth. Elim, you have a lot more HoME WORK to do. The symbolism of REv. is very easy to understand, if you follow the outline in REv. ,,the book is easy to follow, with a literal 1,000 yr. rule of Jesus at the end. You read too little into many verses. The early prophecies leave out a lot, you must read "between the lines" to get the whole truth, Rely on Rev to fill in the gaps. LOL In prophecy, the "gap" theory is very important. LOL LOve Doug, Hoffco
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#97
Elin, You are not taking seriously and honestly ALL of God's PROGRESSIVE Revelation, "progressive rev," in ALL the Scriptures, nor taking a serious study of the Book of Revelation, which is God's FINAL word on prophecy. You are messed up on Daniel, The four Kingdom are SEParate kingdoms, named by Daniel, and Dan. 9, make it clear the the "little horn, Kingdom will , some how be an extension of the fourth one., at the "end". Rev. mentions the 7th/ 8th king that will be the LAST king before Jesus comes again to RULE this earth. Elim, you have a lot more HoME WORK to do. The symbolism of REv. is very easy to understand, if you follow the outline in REv. ,,the book is easy to follow, with a literal 1,000 yr. rule of Jesus at the end. You read to little into many verses. The early prophecies leave out a lot, you must read "between the lines" to get the whole truth, Relie on Rev to fil in the gaps. LOL Inprophecy, the "gap" theory is very important. L
OL LOve Doug, Hoffco
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
#98
Elin, you missed the 3rd battle: 1st. is when God destroys the nations coming against the antichrist as Jesus is coming to rapture His Church, Mid. Tri., 2nd. when Jesus comes earth to rule, for 1,000yrs, 3rd battle is at the end of the 1,000yrs. Love Hoffco
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#99
Elin, You are not taking seriously and honestly ALL of God's PROGRESSIVE Revelation, "progressive rev," in ALL the Scriptures, nor taking a serious study of the Book of Revelation, which is God's FINAL word on prophecy. You are messed up on Daniel, The four Kingdom are SEParate kingdoms, named by Daniel, and Dan. 9, make it clear the the "little horn, Kingdom will , some how be an extension of the fourth one., at the "end". Rev. mentions the 7th/ 8th king that will be the LAST king before Jesus comes again to RULE this earth. Elim, you have a lot more HoME WORK to do. The symbolism of REv. is very easy to understand, if you follow the outline in REv. ,,the book is easy to follow, with a literal 1,000 yr. rule of Jesus at the end. You read too little into many verses. The early prophecies leave out a lot, you must read "between the lines" to get the whole truth, Rely on Rev to fill in the gaps. LOL In prophecy, the "gap" theory is very important. LOL LOve Doug, Hoffco
Hey, Doug,

"In the time of those kings (kings of Da 2:37-43, Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome),
the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed,
nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms
and bring them to an end, but it itself will endure forever." (Da 2:44)

That is the kingdom of God set up by Christ Jesus at his first coming,
during the previous Roman empire.
It is a kingdom that endures forever, allowing for no other temporal kingdom to follow.
It is the only kingdom of God and his Christ.
 
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H

Hoffco

Guest
No WAY! Christ's kingdom will replace the physical kingdom of Rome, It will be a physical kingdom for 1,000 yrs. You are destroying the literalness of the prophecies of the end times of Daniel and Revelation. It is clearly a Physical kingdom, where the apostles will rule over the nation of Israel. Love to all, Hoffco