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Kerry
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The only thing contingent is if you have faith in the work of the cross or not. Guess what, and nothing else.
God didn't think it robbery to be equal to Himself
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I have never said anything that stupid in my life. I agree with Cantor. God is comparable to the set of all sets, which is so incomprehensibly infinite that all the rules of logic break down.you think we can just assume the greatness of God is Lebesgue-measurable??
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Kerry
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Ukorin
Guest
The principle in Jeremiah 18:7-10 is not relative to the prophecies in Daniel, which are actually reading out future events, not simply speaking judgement upon a nation.
The 'man of sin' cannot repent. These are not conditional.
This extreme of Conditionalism makes MAN sovereign.
Please define the word used in Scripture as 'PREDESTINATION'. I need to hear what you have going on.
Do you even believe that we have been chosen and called out?
If there is any choosing, then there is determinism.
If God can predict the future, in any facet, then there is determinism.
Remember the word is foreKNOWLEDGE, not foresight, that God uses to choose us.
Knowledge of the future. ABSOLUTISM.
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if Cantor said that, i disagree with him.
Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
(Jeremiah 23:24)
But, is it true? -- God dwelleth on the earth!
lo, the heavens, and the heavens of the heavens do not contain Thee,
how much less this house which I have builded!
(1 Kings 8:27)
He is not contained in the set of all sets.
The book of Daniel is a departure from "Plan A" and forecasts two possible futures, both of which depend significantly on the disobedience of Israel. "Plan A" was an entirely different possibility. There was no room for Greece to be a world power under Plan “A.” Instead, the people of God, if faithful to the covenant, would have conquered Greece. Zech 9:13 clearly tells us this, as R. Lucas paraphrases it: “The sons of Zion will be beating-up the sons of the Greeks.”
All I can do is point you to a Millerite website that integrates conditional principles with specific historical-grammatical exegesis. Start here: The Fundamental Beliefs of the Millerites, Circa 2014.
So you have no definition for yourself. You are just a mouthpiece for this organization.
also, your organization didn't give a definition for predestination, or anything as a suitable match.
yes, i unmuted you. I couldn't resist. I keep seeing people responding to you, and needed to understand how this thread is not shut down yet.
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The fundamental characteristics of prophecy are these:
1. All the promises and threatenings of God are alike — conditional.
2. “God does not destroy free choice by predicting real future events, rather He enhances it by predicting possible future events. God places alternative routes before His people; Possible futures are continually forecast, and God allows man to exercise his free choice by letting him choose one.”
3. “Promises come true because men make choices. They do not come true just because they are predicted” (Roger Lucas, An unpublished manuscript).
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Ukorin
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Solid has a point. Zech wrote awhile after Daniel. This post didn't explain that away.
You are still not explaining how the plan changed back to plan A years later when Zechariah wrote.
Just because you keep saying that all prophecies are conditional doesn't mean it's true.
Roger Lucas is not a source of authority as far as I can tell. I can't even find who he is.
Credibilities please.
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There is no special Millerite definition of the word "predestination." I expect that just about all dictionaries agree what it means. I accept that the Bible teaches that believers are predestined but Millerites like to stress how the Bible emphasizes the importance of free will.
I answered that.
"Possible futures are continually forecast, and God allows man to exercise his free choice by letting him choose one.”
How is that not an answer? The possibility that plan A could still be realized 50 years after Daniel wrote proves that all of Daniel's endtime prophecies were still conditional.
Abundant Biblical support of the thesis was given in the article already cited: Conditionalism: A Cornerstone of Adventist Doctrine.
I appreciate your honesty. You said yes to far more of the questions than I thought you would. But I suspect we still have some major terminology definition differences.
Will you please explain the term "born again" in your own terms?
Will you please explain how GOD saved all people who are SAVED
You answered, "Not as defined by you."; to these two questions:
Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?
Do you believe that Jesus is GOD incarnate?
Why are you so VAGUE when talking about your core beliefs? And so full of words when talking about you unusual beliefs about prophecy?
For example, you almost seem to be white-washing a denial of the Holy Trinity, by saying, "Not as defined by you."; implying that you use the same terminology, but mean something totally different by the term. That is what psuedo-christian cults do, such as the Mormons. YES, we consider those who deny the Deity of Jesus Christ as all being psuedo-christian cults.
Holy Trinity = Three distinct personages within ONE GODhead, with Three distinct functions within that GODhead, YET Co-equally being that ONE GOD, the only real GOD that has ever existed.
NOW please give me your definition of the term "Holy Trinity", every bit as plain and concise as I did.
The DEITY of Jesus Christ = The Second personage within the GODhead, the Holy Trinity, who is fully GOD and fully man at the same time, co-equal as the ONE and ONLY GOD, with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
NOW please give me your definition of the term "the DEITY of Jesus Christ", every bit as plain and concise as I did.
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The page The Fundamental Beliefs of the Millerites, Circa 2014 with its links is very specific about my core beliefs. And on page 1 of this current thread I stated the exact meaning of certain special Greek words and interpreted the phrase "the DEITY of Jesus Christ." I have already said plenty about the Trinity to the point that I can't imagine why more needs to be said.