When does the rapture occur?

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watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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In examining the Scriptures to see what is stated regarding the time of the rapture, I cannot find any verse which specifically locates it before a tribulation.
If anyone knows of a verse which specifically locates it then, I would appreciate learning of it.

However, I have found Scriptures, apart from unfulfilled prophecy, that do instruct about the rapture.
But because of the dismal track record of God's people in their private interpretion of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy--that Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom comes to mind--I will not be including unfulfilled prophecies in what I have found.

There is also another reason I do not include symbolic unfulfilled prophecies here, whose private interpretations cannot be certain, and that is: whatever these symbolic unfulfilled prophecies may mean, they will not disagree with what is clear and certain in the Word of God.

So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.
(2) Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be only one more appearing to come, the only one in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7) with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10). There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4) with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6), and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7), which is his coming in judgment (v.8).
(3) Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world at the end of time.

However, there is an interesting situation in this passage. Note where Paul locates himself when Jesus comes in judgment (vv. 7-10).
He does not see himself coming from heaven with Jesus in that coming, as he would be if he had been raptured prior to a tribulation, but sees himself on earth waiting to be relieved with others when Jesus comes in judgment:

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel (Mk 1:15; Ac 17:30) of our Lord Jesus Christ. They will be punished with everlasing destruction, and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (segullah) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."

What is interesting is that Paul seemed to believe Jesus would come in final judgment during Paul's lifetime. Jesus said he would come "soon," and it seems the NT writers thought "soon" was "sooner" than God had planned-- Ro 13:11-12; 1Co 7:26-27, 29; Php 4:5; 1Ti 6:13-14; Heb 10:25-27; Jas 5:8-9; 1Pe 4:7; 1Jn 2:18; 1Co 15:52 ("we"); 1Th 4:15, 17 ("we").

But I digress. So if Paul saw himself on earth waiting for Jesus to come in judgment, that means he did not teach a rapture of the saints prior to Jesus' return in judgment, but rather at Jesus' return at the end of time. And what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

In Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41). However, regarding any actual instruction,
(4) we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8), which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.
(5) So what I find is that the only writer who informs us of the rapture does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time. And then in:

In 1Pe 1:5, 13, along with Ac 3:21, there is an interesting juxtaposition. In the latter, Peter says there will be no appearing of Jesus prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time (presented above), and in the former he says that our coming salvation (of Ro 8:18-23; Heb 9:28; Php 3:20-21; 1Jn 3:2-3; 1Co 15:52) will be given to us when Jesus is revealed at the end of time (cf Lk 17:24-37).
(6) So although Peter's nomenclaure is not exactly the same, he is referring to exactly the same event--final judgment at the end of time.

And then by extension, there is in the Word of God another connection of the rapture to the final restoration at the end of time:

In Ro 8:19-21, the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrection--1Jn 3:1-2), is located with the liberation of creation from decay; i.e., the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:13), where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4). But this liberation from decay can occur only after the ravages of a tribulation.
So, since the saints' resurrection and creation's liberation from decay, in the new heavens and new earth at the end of time, occur together (Ro 8:19-21),
and since the saint's resurrection and the rapture occur together (1Th 4:16-17), then
by extension and the law of logic: "two events (rapt, lib) occuring at the same time as a third event (resur), therefore occur at the same time as each other (rapt=lib)," means rapture = saints' resurrection = liberation at the end of time, which means that
(7) all three events occur together at the end of time, again specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.

So upon examination of the clear and certain Word of God, what I find is that
  • Christ comes again only once (Heb 9:27-28)
  • at the restoration of all things (Ac 3:21), which is the liberation of all creation (Ro 8:19-23), at the end of time,
  • which restoration can only occur after the ravages of a tribulation,
  • which restoration after tribulation occurs at the resurrection (Ro 8:19-23), which locates the saints' resurrection after tribulation,
  • which resurrection after tribulation occurs with the rapture (1Th 4:16-17), and with the restoration/liberation of all things
    (Ac 3:21; Ro 8:19-23) at the end of time,
so that the saints' resurrection, the rapture and the restoration/liberation all occur together, at the end of time.

Now if Paul had presented us with one easy lesson on the rapture, this puzzle-piecing to see the Biblical relationships among the various events wouldn't be necessary. But then if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Conclusion:
The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

And again, keeping in mind that, although we can't say private interpretations are certain for unfulfilled symbolic prophecies, we can say that whatever the meanings of any symbolic unfulfilled prophecies, those meanings will not disagree with what is certain and clear in the Word of God.
Elin,
when do you think;
1. The saints will judge the world.
*[[1Co 6:2]] KJV* Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
2.the saints will judge the angels?
*[[1Co 6:3]] KJV* Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
3.When will those who follows Jesus will sit on their thrones and judge the twelve tribes f Israel.

*[[Mat 19:28]] KJV* And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
 
H

Hashe

Guest
The rapture occurs in 1988, 40 years after the founding of the nation of Israel.
I know, I heard lots of lectures about this when I was younger.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin,
when do you think;
1. The saints will judge the world.
*[[1Co 6:2]] KJV* Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
2.the saints will judge the angels?
*[[1Co 6:3]] KJV* Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
3.When will those who follows Jesus will sit on their thrones and judge the twelve tribes f Israel.

*[[Mat 19:28]] KJV* And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT, as well as the early church creeds,
present only one return of Christ at the final judgment at the end of time.

Anything else is derived from private (not from the Bible, as is the riddle of Da 2:37-45) and
uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
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Elin,
when do you think;
1. The saints will judge the world.
*[[1Co 6:2]] KJV* Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
2.the saints will judge the angels?
*[[1Co 6:3]] KJV* Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
3.When will those who follows Jesus will sit on their thrones and judge the twelve tribes f Israel.

*[[Mat 19:28]] KJV* And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT, as well as the early church creeds,
present only one return of Christ at the final judgment at the end of time.

Anything else is derived from private (not from the Bible, as is the riddle of Da 2:37-45) and
uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Have I quoted something that isn't in the New Testament?
The above question is so simple,
When will the three occur? Before he comes or after he comes?
 
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I guess you haven't been married then because the wedding supper always comes after the wedding.
Your are confounding uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles with certain NT teaching.

The wedding of the believer to Christ is when one comes to saving faith
and becomes the bride and body of Christ (Eph 5:28-31, 1:22-23).

The banquet is eternity in their glorified bodies with their glorified Savior and Bridegroom.

There is nothing uncertain or private about agreeing with what the Word actually says. It names the Bride of Christ as the new Jerusalem and states when the wedding occurs. Any contrary teaching is actually a private interpretation.
Some basic principles of hermeneutics:

1) Some prophetic riddles are interpreted by the Bible, as in Da 2:37-45; Rev 719-18,
and these interpretations are authoritative and certain,
and govern all meaning related to the riddle.

2) All other interpretations of prophetic riddles are private and uncertain,
because they are subject to more than one valid interpretation.

3) Therefore, all private interpretation of prophetic riddles
must be governed by certain and unequivocal NT teaching
.

And the private and uncertain interpretation of the prophetic riddle of Rev 21
that the Church is not the New Jerusalem and bride/wife of Christ
is contrary to certain and unequivocal NT teaching in
Eph 1:22-23, 5:28-31; Gal 4:26; Heb 12:18, 22,
which uncertain interpretation makes the Bible contradict itself.

What is consistent with certain and unequivocal NT teaching is:

The New Jerusalem = bride and wife of the Lamb (Rev 21:1-2, 9-10).

The Church = wife of Christ (Eph 5:30-32), the Lamb (Jn 1:29), his body
(Eph 1:22-23) in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union (Eph 5:28-31).

The Church is the New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb.

If you had bothered to read what I said, you will notice that I said, "per se." Here is the quote from me again.

The Church is the Body of Christ - It is not the Bride of Christ per se.

The Church is part of the Bride of Christ. In reality the Bride is the New Jerusalem/New Heaven which contains ALL BELIEVERS and ALL SAVED to include the OT Saints. The OT Saints ARE NOT part of the CHURCH.
Multiplying things which are the same again.

The NT presents only one olive tree, in which are all the people of God, both OT and NT.
The NT presents the spirits of the OT departed righteous as being in the Church (Heb 12:22-24).
The NT neither presents, nor allows, two people of God.

We are arguing semantics. The important thing is the timing. The timing of the Wedding and Supper happen after we are all in the new heaven after the Old earth passed away. It is not when Christ returns. I have shown that as ABSOLUTE BIBLICAL TRUTH, Like it or not.
Not according to the principles of hermeneutics.

Your private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles contradicts
certain and unequivocal NT teaching.

The Bible does not contradict itself,
so your private interpretation is in error.
 
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Elin said:
The certain and unequivocal teaching of the NT, as well as the early church creeds,
present only one return of Christ at the final judgment at the end of time.

Anything else is derived from private (not from the Bible, as is the riddle of Da 2:37-45) and
uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Have I quoted something that isn't in the New Testament?
The above question is so simple,
When will the three occur? Before he comes or after he comes?
Sorry, I thought I was clear that all judgment occurs at the only time Jesus comes, the end of time.

Eternity in glorified bodies is next.
 
R

Richie_2uk

Guest
Well the Rapture will occur when it occurs, who are well to determine when? Who are well to say when? When Jesus said he will come as a thief in the night, no one knows the day or the hour. So the rapture will occur, when it happens, What you should ask, is? are we ready for the rapture.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Well the Rapture will occur when it occurs, who are well to determine when? Who are well to say when? When Jesus said he will come as a thief in the night, no one knows the day or the hour. So the rapture will occur, when it happens, What you should ask, is? are we ready for the rapture.
Right on both counts.

However, while we do not know the day or the hour when it will happen,
we can know when it will not happen, because certain things must occur before it happens,
and they have not occurred.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
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Sorry, I thought I was clear that all judgment occurs at the only time Jesus comes, the end of time.

Eternity in glorified bodies is next.
how long do you think they will judge the twelve tribes, after Jesus comes?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Guess again. . .there is only one olive tree.
You said:

the CHURCH = the New Jerusalem = the Bride of Christ

This view excludes the OT Saints.

So tell me, who is getting married here? Who is the Groom and who is the Bride and when is the Wedding?

Hosea 2:

16 "And it shall be, in that day," Says the Lord, "That you will call Me 'My Husband,' And no longer call Me 'My Master,'

19 "I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy;

20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, And you shall know the Lord.

21 "It shall come to pass in that day That I will answer," says the Lord; "I will answer the heavens, And they shall answer the earth.

23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!' "

The above is OT so there was no church then. So is there one wedding or two???? I'm asking your view, not telling you mine.
 
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PlainWord said:
PlainWord said:
Elin1618842 said:
The NT presents only one olive tree, which is all the people of God, both OT and NT.

The NT presents the spirits of the OT departed righteous (saints) as being in the
Church (Heb 12:22-24).

The NT neither presents, nor allows, two people of God.
You said:

the CHURCH = the New Jerusalem = the Bride of Christ

This view excludes the OT Saints
.
Are you paying attention?

So tell me, who is getting married here? Who is the Groom and who is the Bride and when is the Wedding?

Hosea 2:

16 "And it shall be, in that day," Says the Lord, "That you will call Me 'My Husband,' And no longer call Me 'My Master,'

19 "I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me In righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy;

20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, And you shall know the Lord.

21 "It shall come to pass in that day That I will answer," says the Lord; "I will answer the heavens, And they shall answer the earth.

23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!'
And they shall say, 'You are my God!'
"

The above is OT so there was no church then. So is there one wedding or two???? I'm asking your view, not telling you mine.
The NT answers your question.

The Jewish writer Paul states that Israel is not the people of God (Hos 1:9), and
both Jewish writers Peter and Paul state that the promise of Hos 2:23 spoken to Israel applies to the Gentiles.
 
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could it be a 1000 years?
Well, the NT teaches that Jesus does not return until the time to restore all things (Ac 3:21)
in the new creation, which is the new heavens and new earth,
which is eternity because there is no death (Rev 21:1, 4).

Jesus teaches that at the renewal of all things in eternity, when the Son of Man
sits on his glorious throne at the judgment, his followers (all God's people) will
be seated with him to judge the world and the angels (Mt 19:28; 1Co 6:2-3; Rev 2:26).

I don't think the NT presents the Final Judgment as lasting 1000 years.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Well, the NT teaches that Jesus does not return until the time to restore all things (Ac 3:21)
in the new creation, which is the new heavens and new earth,
which is eternity because there is no death (Rev 21:1, 4).

Jesus teaches that at the renewal of all things in eternity, when the Son of Man
sits on his glorious throne at the judgment, his followers (all God's people) will
be seated with him to judge the world and the angels (Mt 19:28; 1Co 6:2-3; Rev 2:26).

I don't think the NT presents the Final Judgment as lasting 1000 years.
I see at least two passages that refute your view (not counting Rev 20:1-6 which you spiritualize away).

Rev 14:

1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

We see the above that the Lamb has returned and yet there are still those who die in Jesus and "their works follow them." Then Peter of course tells us in 2 Pet 3:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

So the works in the earth are burned up at the end but yet when Christ returns, faithful are still dying and works are still following them. Please explain.

Then we have this:

Isa 65:

22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

The days of a tree are not eternity nor does the phrase "long enjoy" communicate eternity. Both hint of a finite period of time i.e., a millennium.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
The NT presents only one olive tree, which is all the people of God, both OT and NT.

The NT presents the spirits of the OT departed righteous (saints) as being in the
Church (Heb 12:22-24).

The NT neither presents, nor allows, two people of God.
I didn't say there were two peoples of God. I specifically said this.

I'm asking your view, not telling you mine.
There is one olive tree. We Gentiles are grafted in with them, the Jewish people who are saved. Rom 11. I totally agree. However, my question was are there two weddings or one? But more importantly, when is the wedding or weddings??

I believe there is a millennium, a period where Christ reigns and rules over the nations. I believe a select group of believers return with Christ to live and reign with Him as Priests/Teachers. Those who return with Christ are resurrected into spiritual bodies and they rule over mortals. Satan is released after the 1,000 years to deceive the nations yet again. God then destroys those forces then we have the end.

Hey Elin, I think you are correct on many things, especially that there is no pre-trib rapture nonsense. I hope you are enjoying this spirited debate as I am. God Bless!!
 
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biscuit

Guest
Actually i do not think the rapture is jesus coming back for us but rather us coming back to him. I think the rapture and the second coming are two different events.
Amazing !! In two lines you just debunked the OP thread.
 
B

biscuit

Guest
So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

This is your first of many errors. Who says that Jesus has to leave Heaven to rapture the Church??? Jesus can easily radiates Himself from Heaven through the clouds to meet the Church. Please remember He can be omnipresent.
 
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Jan 19, 2013
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So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

This is your first of many errors. Who says that Jesus has to leave Heaven to rapture the Church??? Jesus can easily radiates Himself from Heaven through the clouds to meet the Church. Please remember He can be omnipresent.
It's not about what Jesus can do, it's about what the NT teaches he will do.
And "radiate" is not it.


"For the Lord
himself (not his "radiation") will come down from heaven (not "radiate"
from heaven) with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
(it will be neither a silent nor secret event),
and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be
caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord
(himself, not his "radiation')
in the air." (1Th 4:16-17)

Biscuit, you likewise need much more study of the NT before you are in a position to
evaluate what is presented regarding it.