Immigration a big issue.

[Atwood]

I think that some have confusion of the USA and Christianity. To attack the USA is not to attack Christianity. The USA is a vile, wicked country. I don't know how we could judge any Hispanic country as more vile or wicked than the USA. Other countries to the south probably have more disorder as we are coasting on the vestiges of Christian influence in the USA. But I don't know of any country more of a leader in the Neo-Nazi murder of babies, than the USA. And right now we are fast establishing Sodomy as a privileged group.

The southern invasion may bring more influence against baby-murder. I think the USA is way more corrupt in baby-murder than the Hispanic countries.

So I am not so sure that we should view Latin American as polluting the USA by invading us.

 

[secularhermit]

Sir! i wish you knew... The hypocrisy here is a political mascarade. However, our economic condition + nominal Catholicism has been a good deterrant. Although the Gay Pride is "on", as I have noticed here.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Baloney. A 10-page July 7, 2014 report was issued by the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC) which is part of the DEA and incorporates Homeland Security that states:

"homicide trends and migrant interviews suggest violence is likely not the principal factor driving the increase in UAC migration. While CBP data from early fiscal year 2011 indicates a steady increase in OTM and UAC migration, United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) statistics— within this same timeframe— show a decline in per capita homicide rates in these three countries; El Salvador saw the sharpest decline, followed by Honduras and Guatemala, respectively.

The story: Leaked Border Crisis Intel Shreds Narrative from Media and Obama Admin

The report: http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site525/2014/0716/20140716_052441_LeakedEPICDocument.pdf

No it is not a good thing to send them off without supervision, but the way I look at it is this:

If my child stays here he will be killed, if I send him to another place at least he will have a chance to live.
Definite death, or a chance at life. I would rather them have the chance at life, and that is how they look at it to.

God does tells us that if some one flees another country do to persecution, we are to accept them in and treat them as one of us. Not send them back to face that violence.

 

[kennethcadwell]

That is old testament you are using, and we are now to use new testament which says we are to follow mans laws unless they contradict His. In our Lords covenant we are to love, and forgive. Not put to death.

Death decisions have been mandated to man; they are ours to make. Apparently the reason why man may judge & execute man is that God made man in His image. So to that extent not only may man "play God," man must perform that function. You may note that judges in the OT were called "gods."

Genesis 9:

"And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it; and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man’s brother, will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

Similarly Rom 13 indicates that the government authorities are the ministers of God in using the sword.

 

[Billyd]

I would suggest do not sent missionaries to Venezuela (it´s too risky and the gov loves to receive bribes). Instead, consider LOCALS to get that good job done. I was reached by US missionaries in Venezuela, now I wish to spare them troubles with the poeple ruling (sorry, ruining! this country).

Thanks, I haven't been to Venezuela, but we still have missionaries there. I hope that it's not like Iraq. They are running the Christians out of the oldest Christian settlement in the Middle East. As bad as Saddam Husein was, he didn't do that. I've got a question, a little off topic, but here goes. What is the difference in the lives of tourist and those who live on the economy? I found night and day difference in several other Central American countries.

 

[Oncefallen]

That is old testament you are using, and we are now to use new testament which says we are to follow mans laws unless they contradict His. In our Lords covenant we are to love, and forgive. Not put to death.

Interesting how you now say that an argument based on the OT is void when in your OP three out of four verses you used to support your stance were from the OT, and the fourth was from Hebrews which was written to the people who followed the OT.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Interesting how you now say that an argument based on the OT is void when in your OP three out of four verses you used to support your stance were from the OT, and the fourth was from Hebrews which was written to the people who followed the OT.

I never said the old testament is void, but one must understand that changes have been made from the old to the new testament.

Old testament : capital punishment was accepted New testament : Lord tells us to love and forgive, and life and death is to be left up to him.

Old testament : refrained from eating certain foods. New testament : we are not refrained, accept if it was offered to idols

Old testament : animal sacrifices, and curses for breaking law New testament : Jesus was our sacrifice, and took the curses for us.

So when I use a scripture from the old testament that is about love, then it still is in effect in the new. For the new is all about love.

When you quote a scripture from the old testament that is not about love and forgiveness, then no it would not apply in our Lord's covenant.

 

[Billyd]

I think that some have confusion of the USA and Christianity. To attack the USA is not to attack Christianity. The USA is a vile, wicked country. I don't know how we could judge any Hispanic country as more vile or wicked than the USA. Other countries to the south probably have more disorder as we are coasting on the vestiges of Christian influence in the USA. But I don't know of any country more of a leader in the Neo-Nazi murder of babies, than the USA. And right now we are fast establishing Sodomy as a privileged group.

The southern invasion may bring more influence against baby-murder. I think the USA is way more corrupt in baby-murder than the Hispanic countries.

So I am not so sure that we should view Latin American as polluting the USA by invading us.

Atwood, Who do you see as the greatest threat to the church? I believe that it is the church itself. I can walk around almost any church community in the US and ask the children what the name of the church in the community is, and find many children who can't tell you. I can ask anyone who doesn't attend the church if the pastor of the church has visited them, and find few people who will say yes. We sent a young man, to pastor a church in a nearby town. The only family there between 21 and 40 in the church had immigrated from South America. There are more professing Christians at the Friday night football, than you will find in a church on Saturday and Sunday combined. I live in the Bible Belt. The rest of the world doesn't have to do anything. Christians are killing Christianity from the inside out.

I'll return to the OP. God has laid a mission field on our doorsteps (50,000 to 150,000 children). My question is, does anyone honestly think that God expects us to put them on a train and send them back to the place that they have escaped from. I'm not talking about the gangs or drug runners, I'm talking about children. I find it strange that Christians are making the loudest noise in favor of sending them back.

 

[biscuit]

My friend, Jesus doesn't set a limit on how many we are to help. He just tells us to help. If these children do not experience the Gospel through us, they will experience the gang and terrorist culture through their home countries, or through our streets. They are here now, we have an opportunity. The next time they return, and they will, it will probably be with a gang or cartel. Would you rather meet them in Heaven, or condemn them to Hell. That's not a difficult choice for me to make.

I'll add this little fact for you. The aid provided by our country is a drop in the bucket when compared to the amount of money it spends to buy the drugs produced by these counties. If you are really serious about stopping the flow of illegals to the US, dry up the market for the product they are hawking.

Sorry, American Christians are the most generous nation and you wish to abandon the limits of our generosity. Again, those Americans who wants them here should adopt them or simply shut up. Let them put their money where their mouths are. We have more than fulfilled Jesus' call to take care of the poor 4x more than the next country. So, I have absolutely no guilt over it about sending them back. It is unfortunate but it has to be done.

 

[Atwood]

That is old testament you are using, and we are now to use new testament which says we are to follow mans laws unless they contradict His. In our Lords covenant we are to love, and forgive. Not put to death.

Dear Kenneth, look back at your post and notice how now no scripture was given at all. You may as well claim that there is no Lake of Fire because God is love.

I think if you reconsider this issue, you may change your mind.

Where does the NT say not to execute murderers? Last time I looked Romans 13 was NT. (The government minister of God, bears not the sword in vain.) The Lord approves the sword -- and not just to tickle people with.

OT? From Adam to the flood was OT, and apparently there was no capital punishment -- in fact Cain, the murderer, got a special protection being put to death.

At the Flood (OT) almost everyone was executed -- by the Lord.

After the Flood, a new dispensation was instituted: it included captial punishment. Men were not asked to but ordered to execute murderes. This is long before the Law, and ordered by a gracious, loving God.

Every moving thing that liveth shall be food for you; as the green herb have I given you all. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. "And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it; and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man’s brother, will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

"And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that go out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of the flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations. I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud, and I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

There is nothing about the Noahic Covenant & Dispensation that is temporary. It certainly lasts as long as the Rainbow appears. The Rainbow continues with God's promise not the destroy the earth again with a flood. Nowhere is the Noahic Dispensation nullified or ended in the Bible. The rules of it continue over and with the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, and Church Age. We still eat meat & are secure from the Flood.

It is gross disobedience for man to refuse to execute murderers. Being made in the image of God justifies man being an executioner -- judges are called "gods" in the Bible; they act as God's representatives.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood, Who do you see as the greatest threat to the church? I believe that it is the church itself. . . . There are more professing Christians at the Friday night football, than you will find in a church on Saturday and Sunday combined. I live in the Bible Belt.

You have a sour assessment of the Body of Christ. I don't know how I could make such an assessment. I would have to be able to attend & observe millions of people & many congregations. I don't have the knowledge or ability to judge such a thing.

But I am convinced that the Sheep of His pasture are so wondrously fine. (do you know that song?) In Rev the Bride is adorned with her righteous acts. I am convinced that I could walk into the majority of the cities in the world and in one day find love & fellowship from my brothers in the Lord. Yes, in many things we all stumble. And I think that Rev 2-3 gives 7 kinds of local churches -- 2 of them get no criticism. 1 is so repugnant that the Lord would spew it out of His mouth.

If I didn't think that Christians were wonderful people, I would not be a Christian; for that would mean that God's word was a lie, saying "He shall save them from their sins."

As to professing Christians, I think that over 90 percent are mere professors & not possessors; there are dead denomination, people playing church. Professors are not necessarily possessors.

Bible Belt? I don't know of any "Bible belt." Years ago there was this Christian consensus in large parts of the USA, not that the majority of people were saved, but they had general allegiance to the name of Jesus & to the Bible. In some areas by law the Bible was read in school every day.

The rest of the world doesn't have to do anything. Christians are killing Christianity from the inside out.

Well Christians may do things to harm themselves, yes. But the Church cannot be killed: On this rock I will build my Church, & the gates of Hades shall not prevail vs. it.

I'll return to the OP. God has laid a mission field on our doorsteps (50,000 to 150,000 children). My question is, does anyone honestly think that God expects us to put them on a train and send them back to the place that they have escaped from. I'm not talking about the gangs or drug runners, I'm talking about children. I find it strange that Christians are making the loudest noise in favor of sending them back.

Who is this "us"? The USA for me is not "us." They come from one pagan country to another, the USA. All the lost we contact every day are our mission field; and there are no shortage of unsaved people -- these teenage boys are just a drop in that bucket. The USA is not the Church. The Church exists, for example, in Guatemala and may well have the same proportion of born again Christians that the USA has. This is not persons fleeing the land of satan to come to the land of the Church.

But indeed, it is well to consider how we may spread the gospel in this confusion. And I don't think we should greatly take sides. And I see no reason to accuse the Brethren in this situation.

IMHO:
This is just another typical episode in the history of the world, another mass migration, another invasion, like that of the French who invaded England in 1066, like the British invading the New World & its native "Indian" population. Meanwhile, I doubt that the Church is going to be able to clean up the stinking pond it fishes in, but we need to fish on.

I think we are watching the collapse of the North-European American civilization; just another typical event in the turbulent history of the world. As history continues, we may expect the break up or destruction of the USA, like the Roman Empire, like the British Empire, like the Soviet Union. I won't be surprised if ours comes by nuclear bombs. Who is to say that Mexico won't rise and conquer part of the USA? Who is to say that Spanish won't be the national language where now English is spoken?

But our point of stability is the Savior, not the USA. And as I think you are saying, in this circumstance we had best love neighbor as self. Also pray for wisdom.

Thanks for your comments. They have provoked me to pray about what to do myself in this situation. Is there something I could or should do to take advantage of this. Right now I attend a Spanish speaking church some of the time.

 

[Atwood]

I never said the old testament is void, but one must understand that changes have been made from the old to the new testament.

Old testament : capital punishment was accepted New testament : Lord tells us to love and forgive, and life and death is to be left up to him.

What is your proof that the OT doesn't say to love & forgive? Where is "love your neighbor as yourself found? Could it be Leviticus? Where does "Vengeance is mine" occur. Which testament has Jonah?

Old testament : refrained from eating certain foods. New testament : we are not refrained, accept if it was offered to idols

The Law of Moses is not the OT. What restriction was put on the diet of men before the Law? What about those who are not Israelites? Did they have a restriction?

When you quote a scripture from the old testament that is not about love and forgiveness, then no it would not apply in our Lord's covenant.

Now what is your proof of that? And what is your proof that executing murderers is not loving neighbor as self? How many lives would be saved by executing murderers? They would not kill a 2nd time.

So then the Rainbow doesn't apply today, & we might be destroyed by a flood?
And then Abraham is not our great example of justification by faith?
And then the New Covenant is not valid because it was announced in the OT by Jeremiah.

What needs to be understood that while the Covenant of Moses ended at the cross, the capital punishment mandate was not given as part of that covenant, but along with permission to eat meat & the Rainbow. The Noahic Covenant is in force. And as Rom 13 tells us, the man in authority in the government is a minister of God authorized to use the sword.

Also, men in authority continue to be in the image of God, though this began in the OT. You confuse the OT with the Covenant of Moses.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Romans 13 does say that, but that only applies to those in government who are doing justly and using it to repay evil for evil.
If your government does justly laws based on God's will then they are from God, but if they are doing wrong we are not to follow that standard.

If you want an example, the scripture says that those who turn and follow the antichrist when he comes to power will be cut off. The antichrist will be a governmental power with his system installed, and it says we are not to follow him. So this clearly shows that if the law is not based on the Lord our God way then we are not held to follow it.

The death penalty does not show forgiveness, and our Lord said, "Vengeance is mine. "

He is the one to decide the life or death of a person, not us.

Dear Kenneth, look back at your post and notice how now no scripture was given at all. You may as well claim that there is no Lake of Fire because God is love.

I think if you reconsider this issue, you may change your mind.

Where does the NT say not to execute murderers? Last time I looked Romans 13 was NT. (The government minister of God, bears not the sword in vain.) The Lord approves the sword -- and not just to tickle people with.

OT? From Adam to the flood was OT, and apparently there was no capital punishment -- in fact Cain, the murderer, got a special protection being put to death.

At the Flood (OT) almost everyone was executed -- by the Lord.

After the Flood, a new dispensation was instituted: it included captial punishment. Men were not asked to but ordered to execute murderes. This is long before the Law, and ordered by a gracious, loving God.

Every moving thing that liveth shall be food for you; as the green herb have I given you all. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. "And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it; and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man’s brother, will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

"And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you; of all that go out of the ark, even every beast of the earth. And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of the flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations. I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud, and I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

There is nothing about the Noahic Covenant & Dispensation that is temporary. It certainly lasts as long as the Rainbow appears. The Rainbow continues with God's promise not the destroy the earth again with a flood. Nowhere is the Noahic Dispensation nullified or ended in the Bible. The rules of it continue over and with the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, and Church Age. We still eat meat & are secure from the Flood.

It is gross disobedience for man to refuse to execute murderers. Being made in the image of God justifies man being an executioner -- judges are called "gods" in the Bible; they act as God's representatives.

 

[kennethcadwell]

That is not repaying evil for evil.

Romans 13 does say that, but that only applies to those in government who are doing justly and using it to repay evil for evil.
If your government does justly laws based on God's will then they are from God, but if they are doing wrong we are not to follow that standard.

If you want an example, the scripture says that those who turn and follow the antichrist when he comes to power will be cut off. The antichrist will be a governmental power with his system installed, and it says we are not to follow him. So this clearly shows that if the law is not based on the Lord our God way then we are not held to follow it.

The death penalty does not show forgiveness, and our Lord said, "Vengeance is mine. "

He is the one to decide the life or death of a person, not us.

 

[Billyd]

Atwood, I stand properly scolded. I used us to reference Christians.

My post was not meant as a dissing of Christians. It was to scold them for neglect and laziness. I have been a part of the awakening of an almost dead church. I see every day what happens when reach children early. God has given everyone at least one talent to use for His Kingdom. Every body of Christ (church) should put their talents to use.

It is my prayer that Christians wake up, and put some legs on the salvation that God so freely gave them.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You assume and put words in people's mouth that they do not say Atwood.
Assuming is wrong, why don't you try actually just responding to what one says instead of making accusations on some one that did not say what you are saying.

The rainbow does still apply, and once again I did not say the whole old testament was done away.

Yes we are to love our neighbors as our self, but we are told to love our enemies to.

Yes putting to death murders would save a lot of other people from being killed, but so would keeping them in prison for the rest of their life.
By keeping them in prison for life they still get punished, and then the life or death of that person will be left to our Lord to decide as it should be.

When I stand before my Lord, and have to give an account of my life as we all will have to. One of the things I don't want Him to say to me is why I did not have forgiveness for others.

 

[Atwood]

You assume and put words in people's mouth that they do not say Atwood.
Assuming is wrong, why don't you try actually just responding to what one says instead of making accusations on some one that did not say what you are saying.

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy. It is noted that you prove nothing from the Bible. But you go on dogmatically. Which demonstrates that he who is convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. But if you can prove to me that I made a false accusation about you, backquote it so I may apologize.

The rainbow does still apply, and once again I did not say the whole old testament was done away.

You lumped the whole OT together. But the Law of Moses is a unique part of it. The rainbow is part of the same dispensation/covenant as is the command to execute murderers. The Law of Moses ended. The Noahic Covenant never ended. You argue merely from loving, but the Lord always wanted people to love, even when He produced the capital punishment command, after a period of violent history ended with the Flood.

Putting person in prison is a punishment on society who is obliged to feed, clothe, house, entertain, and give free medical care to prisoners. Prison is not part of God's punishment plan in the Bible anywhere. Murder happens inside prison, and persons escape from prison. But it is all human reasoning on your part, Kenneth.

As I have quoted from you in the Bible, Genesis 9 and pointed you to Romans 13, capital punishment is not an option, but a command from God. Now what will happen to you if you go on in willful sin & oppose God's word on this?

One of the things I don't want Him to say to me is why I did not have forgiveness for others.

This has nothing to do with forgiving; it has to do with obeying the Lord. If someone murders a Christian, the murderer is probably going to be forgiven by the Christian as the Christian dies (if he can). No Christian is going to take vengeance & kill the murderer. That is the job of government.

Let us obey the word!

And surely your blood, the blood of your lives, will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it; and at the hand of man, even at the hand of every man’s brother, will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Num 35:


Moreover ye shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer, that is guilty of death; but he shall surely be put to death. And ye shall take no ransom for him that is fled to his city of refuge, that he may come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest. So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood, it polluteth the land; and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it. And thou shalt not defile the land which ye inhabit, in the midst of which I dwell: for I, Jehovah, dwell in the midst of the children of Israel.

Innocent blood pollutes the land of the USA -- this is not an Israel-only commandment.

Let us not defile the USA..

 

[Atwood]

Atwood, I stand properly scolded. I used us to reference Christians.

Pardon me, I did not mean to scold.

I have been a part of the awakening of an almost dead church.

That is not hard to find, almost dead churches.

[quote\I see every day what happens when reach children early. God has given everyone at least one talent to use for His Kingdom. Every body of Christ (church) should put their talents to use.

It is my prayer that Christians wake up, and put some legs on the salvation that God so freely gave them.[/QUOTE]

Yes, good points. I think also that there is much indolence. Ye Olde Cares of the World.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The government is to obey God's plan to, and under our Lord and Savior we are to show love and forgiveness.

So if government was ran in the ways of our Lord, capital punishment would not be an acceptable punishment. That is what Romans is all about, only if the law of man is based on the law from our Lord.

If we are to follow mans laws even though they contradict the Lord our God's, then we could follow the antichrist we he comes to power and still be saved. The bible shows that is not true.

Then just like some one who does not want to live by our Lords command to love our enemies to override it with mans principles. ( We would have to feed, clothe, house, and provide free medical to them )

Blame the system for that, do not put the unfairness of it over our Lord's command.

Plus besides that they could easily fix it if they paid them fair wages for the jobs they have in there, and take that money for housing, food, and medical costs. Instead of charging the tax payers.

Plus besides that it is usually the drug users that are the ones escaping from minimum security prisons. The ones kept in maximum security are not the ones who escape, and if they do it is every great once in awhile. Minimum security is where most the escapes you hear of come from. If they would keep them in max, and keep in lock down all the time this would eliminate that.

 

[Atwood]

The death penalty does not show forgiveness, and our Lord said, "Vengeance is mine. "

He is the one to decide the life or death of a person, not us.

The death penalty is a different matter from the victim forgiving the murderer or the victim's friends & relatives forgiving the murderer. The Lord, as Romans 13 tells us, has delegated his vengeance to proper government officials.
He is the one who decided that men shall make the decision on executing the murderer. We may not dream up theories on this, nor sluff off responsibilites he gave us, like : "God told me to dig this hole, but I will sit around & let Him dig it if he so wants it dug."

We have no business telling the Lord what do to about murderers. He has told us, and we must needs obey.

Now what is love? It is love to execute the murderer. That is the best thing we can do for him. He is convicted and knows that he must meet His maker soon. Thus the murderer may turn his attention to repenting & trusting the Lord Jesus as His Savior. The murderer is not tempted to pretend innocence so that he may get out on appeal.

But however we reason it, God's word stands fast. I don't need to quote it again. By this time I hope you know the scripture.