Predestination Makes Void Personal Responsibility

[eternally-gratefull]

This is also applies to OSAS, too. There is no responsibility in OSAS because you can sin and an ultimately be saved no matter what you do. That is why many believe OSAS to be a spin off of Calvinism.

no different than arminianism, in fact arminianism is even more prone to sin. They have to excuse their sin as ok, I am not as bad as the evil sinner. then the sins they do acknowledge, all we have to do is say I am sorry God I did not mean it, and God says, its ok. you can rejoin my family. welcome back.

Osas has nothing to do with calvanism. It has everything to do with Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]Keep reading to verse 23. He is indeed using examples from Israel's redemptive history, but he is using that to make a point about the wider salvation of God's people, both Jew and Gentile (which is entirely consistent with Paul's comments earlier about not all of Israel being true Israel, and not all the children being Abraham's literal descendants)

Read all of chapters 9 - 11, he is talking about the nation of Israel.

he starts by debunking the fact Israel is saved just because of lineage (they were not born saved) he continues by saying they were not chosen by the will of men, or because the fathers were such righteous people. he answers the question, Did God make a mistake in choosing Israel, and ends with the fact God will restore israel when the time of the gentile is complete, Proving that God keeps his promises.

 

[p_rehbein]

QUOTED:

Read all of chapters 9 - 11, he is talking about the nation of Israel.

he starts by debunking the fact Israel is saved just because of lineage (they were not born saved) he continues by saying they were not chosen by the will of men, or because the fathers were such righteous people. he answers the question, Did God make a mistake in choosing Israel, and ends with the fact God will restore israel when the time of the gentile is complete, Proving that God keeps his promises.

END QUOTATION...........

Point of Clarification needed here..........Must be certain to acknowledge the DISLCAIMER that Paul stated in Chapter 11. That is very important to the totality of this passage of Scriputre.

vs. 3) And they also, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

The Jews who denied Christ/who continue to deny Christ have a problem in that they MUST confess Jesus as Lord in order to be "grafted in" again. Given that, how exactly are those unbelieving Jews who have passed on going to be grafted in again? Seeing as how they died in their unbelief, in their sins, how are they to "ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF?"

Just asking, because this has been the topic of many Studies I have participated in............

 

[p_rehbein]

QUOTED:

Osas has nothing to do with calvanism. It has everything to do with Christ.

END QUOTATION........

That's not 100% accurate is it? Does not both Calvin's teachings and OSAS say there is nothing man can do to lose his salvation?

(just saying.............)

 

[p_rehbein]

QUOTED:

no different than arminianism, in fact arminianism is even more prone to sin. They have to excuse their sin as ok, I am not as bad as the evil sinner. then the sins they do acknowledge, all we have to do is say I am sorry God I did not mean it, and God says, its ok. you can rejoin my family. welcome back.

END QUOTATION........

uh, do you have statistics to back up this assertion? Their theology, as I read it, does not teach this. It teaches personal responsibility, and the NEED for both confession and repentance of sin. Now, while you are word playing here to belittle them a wee bit, do you not believe that one who is saved and then sins should repent and ask forgiveness?

 

[Jason0047]

no different than arminianism, in fact arminianism is even more prone to sin. They have to excuse their sin as ok, I am not as bad as the evil sinner. then the sins they do acknowledge, all we have to do is say I am sorry God I did not mean it, and God says, its ok. you can rejoin my family. welcome back.

Osas has nothing to do with calvanism. It has everything to do with Christ.

No, the difference is that the person who is seeking to please God for real instead of themselves is going to desire to not in wanting to sin against God and they are going to confess their sins and work with God to put their sins behind them. For the true believer or saint knows that if they desire to live an evil life and also love God, then they would realize that they would be a hypocrite. See the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee on who was more justified before God (Luke 18:9-14). For who was more justified? The Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him in being a sinner? Or was it the Pharisee who thought he was a child of God and was better than everyone else? In fact, the OSAS proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved had no real motivation to stop sinning. For most people will always do the wrong thing if there is no ultimate consequence to their actions. For example: If going over the speed limit meant you going to jail for a year and or in you having to be beaten with billy clubs, I doubt many people would break the speed limit like they do today. In other words, there is no real consequence to not being a good person of the Kingdom of God if you believe in OSAS or POTS (Preservance of the Saints).

 

[Jason0047]

No, the difference is that the person who is seeking to please God for real instead of themselves is going to desire to not in wanting to sin against God and they are going to confess their sins and work with God to put their sins behind them. For the true believer or saint knows that if they desire to live an evil life and also love God, then they would realize that they would be a hypocrite. See the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee on who was more justified before God (Luke 18:9-14). For who was more justified? The Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him in being a sinner? Or was it the Pharisee who thought he was a child of God and was better than everyone else? In fact, the OSAS proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved had no real motivation to stop sinning. For most people will always do the wrong thing if there is no ultimate consequence to their actions. For example: If going over the speed limit meant you going to jail for a year and or in you having to be beaten with billy clubs, I doubt many people would break the speed limit like they do today. In other words, there is no real consequence to not being a good person of the Kingdom of God if you believe in OSAS or POTS (Preservance of the Saints).

In other words, there is no responsibility in Calvinism or OSAS.

 

[JaumeJ]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to p_rehbein again.

QUOTED:

no different than arminianism, in fact arminianism is even more prone to sin. They have to excuse their sin as ok, I am not as bad as the evil sinner. then the sins they do acknowledge, all we have to do is say I am sorry God I did not mean it, and God says, its ok. you can rejoin my family. welcome back.

END QUOTATION........

uh, do you have statistics to back up this assertion? Their theology, as I read it, does not teach this. It teaches personal responsibility, and the NEED for both confession and repentance of sin. Now, while you are word playing here to belittle them a wee bit, do you not believe that one who is saved and then sins should repent and ask forgiveness?

 

[Butch5]

Matthew 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 .) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33 .) Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 .) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 .) A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 .) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 .) For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If one is predestined from the beginning to either eternal life or eternal damnation........then personal responsibility can not be a factor to be judged........after all, for what reason would man have to "give account?"

The problem is that predestination in the Bible isn't what most Christians claim it to be.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

QUOTED:

Read all of chapters 9 - 11, he is talking about the nation of Israel.

he starts by debunking the fact Israel is saved just because of lineage (they were not born saved) he continues by saying they were not chosen by the will of men, or because the fathers were such righteous people. he answers the question, Did God make a mistake in choosing Israel, and ends with the fact God will restore israel when the time of the gentile is complete, Proving that God keeps his promises.

END QUOTATION...........

Point of Clarification needed here..........Must be certain to acknowledge the DISLCAIMER that Paul stated in Chapter 11. That is very important to the totality of this passage of Scriputre.

vs. 3) And they also, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

The Jews who denied Christ/who continue to deny Christ have a problem in that they MUST confess Jesus as Lord in order to be "grafted in" again. Given that, how exactly are those unbelieving Jews who have passed on going to be grafted in again? Seeing as how they died in their unbelief, in their sins, how are they to "ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF?"

Just asking, because this has been the topic of many Studies I have participated in............

thanks for making that point. Yes, a very important point. God is not going to save any jew or gentile in unbelief!

 

[starfield]

Well put, very simple. We cannot ignore something that's clearly on the Bible just because our human minds cannot reconcile two apparent contradictions. God shows his Sovereignty all over Israel's history, and in today's world. Jesus commanded everyone to ''repent and believe'', yet in the very first chapter of John it says that ''all who believed in him...he gave the right to become children of God, who were born...nor of the will of man, but of God'' and then when talking to Nicodemus Jesus repeats this truth when He says ''You must be born again''. Can anyone force their own birth? I don't think so. Yet, we are responsible for our actions here in our earth.

Absolutely! For instance when God said He will use Assyria to chastise Israel. God's restraining of evil in today's world is how He exercises sovereign control over all things; if He removes His restraining hand, man's heart will harden. Pharaoh and Judas were wicked men God used to fulfill His purpose but they're well accountable for their deeds. Does this mean there is injustice with God? No.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

QUOTED:

Osas has nothing to do with calvanism. It has everything to do with Christ.

END QUOTATION........

That's not 100% accurate is it? Does not both Calvin's teachings and OSAS say there is nothing man can do to lose his salvation?

(just saying.............)

true, that is why I consider all calvinist's my brothers and sisters.

My point was Calvin did not start OSAS, Christ did with his death.. when he said, "it is finished"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, the difference is that the person who is seeking to please God for real instead of themselves is going to desire to not in wanting to sin against God and they are going to confess their sins and work with God to put their sins behind them. For the true believer or saint knows that if they desire to live an evil life and also love God, then they would realize that they would be a hypocrite.

The would be a non believer, and not saved, because they have yet to repent. God is not going to save someone who has mere belief, but no faith. A person who may believe in him, but wants to continue with his sin is saying his sin is not bad, and not worthy of condemnation. He does not trust Christ, he is licentious., who's condemnation has been beforehand pre-determined as Jude says.

See the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee on who was more justified before God (Luke 18:9-14). For who was more justified? The Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on him in being a sinner? Or was it the Pharisee who thought he was a child of God and was better than everyone else? In fact, the OSAS proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved had no real motivation to stop sinning. For most people will always do the wrong thing if there is no ultimate consequence to their actions. For example: If going over the speed limit meant you going to jail for a year and or in you having to be beaten with billy clubs, I doubt many people would break the speed limit like they do today. In other words, there is no real consequence to not being a good person of the Kingdom of God if you believe in OSAS or POTS (Preservance of the Saints).

Well if you do not believe in OSAS. You are the pharisee. For you have to think you are more righteous than the tax collector, or murderer or adulterer. so you have earned your right.

The one who believes in OSAS looks at God and see's himself just as evil as the tax collector. the adulterer and murderer. And is always on his knees, unable to even look up to God.

As paul said in romans 7. We always see ourselves as wretched men, because we NEVER see ourselves as righteous people. In this, we see the sin in our lives (yes even the little sins the armininons must reject as even worthy of sin or looking at, or their whole doctrine would fall flat) and this keeps us looking forward. and not falling in sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

QUOTED:

no different than arminianism, in fact arminianism is even more prone to sin. They have to excuse their sin as ok, I am not as bad as the evil sinner. then the sins they do acknowledge, all we have to do is say I am sorry God I did not mean it, and God says, its ok. you can rejoin my family. welcome back.

END QUOTATION........

uh, do you have statistics to back up this assertion? Their theology, as I read it, does not teach this. It teaches personal responsibility, and the NEED for both confession and repentance of sin. Now, while you are word playing here to belittle them a wee bit, do you not believe that one who is saved and then sins should repent and ask forgiveness?

Confesion and repentance is just an excuse to sin. I can go and sin all I want as long as I confess and repent.

It is a mockery of God to say one must repent. Repent means to change, If you agree with God that lying is a sin, you have repented, If you then go and lie again, How can you repent? you already repented once? Are you going to agree again that it is a sin? You already KNEW it was a sin and agreed with God. that did not change.

Now coming to God as you would your father to admit you screwed up. Your flesh was weak. And thanking God for forgiving you that sin, and asking for help in the future to see when that temptation comes so you do not fall so easily. This I can see. But an arminian would not see this. they would be begging God to forgive them again. When God said he already has, And making a mockery by repenting again.

Well I guess if you never repented in the first place. I can see it, But then you would not be saved now would you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In other words, there is no responsibility in Calvinism or OSAS.

There is no merit in Osas, It is a grace GIFT. Not a reward.

there is huge responsibility.

Do you want to be a babe in Christ with a miserable life and recieve no reward in heaven?

Or mature in Christ and win great battles for Christ over satan and his cosmos system?

or we could be like the lawyers, so focused on doing good and not messing up. God can not use us to do anything, because we are to focused on self.

 

[crossnote]

No no no, you are all wrong-

Predestined...
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Man is responsible...

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

So the answer of the ages is AAWWWWWWWWW °whew°

 

[p_rehbein]

(hehe......) still going at it eh?

 

[Atwood]

Predestination Makes Valid Personal Irresponsibility?

Since all men are personally irresponsible,
does that mean that gracious predestination was necessary?

On making void, the verse that comes to mind is at the end of Galatians 2:

(approx as follows

I do not make void the grace of God,
for if righteousness is by the Law then Christ died in vain.

 

[Nick01]

Read all of chapters 9 - 11, he is talking about the nation of Israel.

he starts by debunking the fact Israel is saved just because of lineage (they were not born saved) he continues by saying they were not chosen by the will of men, or because the fathers were such righteous people. he answers the question, Did God make a mistake in choosing Israel, and ends with the fact God will restore israel when the time of the gentile is complete, Proving that God keeps his promises.

I feel like you missed the point of my post. Yes, he is talking about Israel, but he is using Israel to make a point about Jewish AND Gentile believers. Again, read verse 23. Read verse 30. Read Romans 10:13-21. Read virtually of chapter 11, but particularly everything past 13. You have to deal with those verses, instead of just brushing them away.

But let me ask you a question. Even if I accepted everything you have said, doesn't that mean that you're essentially arguing for a very Calvin-like predestination of, if not every believer, then certainly every Jew? In other words, your issue isn't so much with the predestination concept itself, but who it is applied to?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I feel like you missed the point of my post. Yes, he is talking about Israel, but he is using Israel to make a point about Jewish AND Gentile believers. Again, read verse 23. Read verse 30. Read Romans 10:13-21. Read virtually of chapter 11, but particularly everything past 13. You have to deal with those verses, instead of just brushing them away.

I have dealt with them.

vs 23 has nothing to do with individuals. so do not see your point. or did you get the verse wrong

vs 30 says that a group of people called gentiles and a group of people called jews.

chapter 10 is talking about they (plural) the nation of Israel)

chapter 11 is talking about two people groups/.

Gentiles. who were grafted in

Israel. partly blind. our enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved according to the promise, nothing there about individual people.

so I am not sure why so you say I am required to deal with those verses, when those verses support what I said.

But let me ask you a question. Even if I accepted everything you have said, doesn't that mean that you're essentially arguing for a very Calvin-like predestination of, if not every believer, then certainly every Jew? In other words, your issue isn't so much with the predestination concept itself, but who it is applied to?

no, my issue is to how it is applied.

Is it applied based on foreknowledge (God knew before hand) or is it applied just because God chose to save me, and reject my brother. so he allowed me to have faith, but did not allow him to (even if he wanted to)