I Don't Want Another Divorce

[Sirk]

I simply wanted to help Sandi realize that women communicate things to men in the subtlest of ways.....and that she could be triggering something deep in him by a look or a tone and not even know what it is. It's really too bad the guy won't suck it up, go to counseling and dig deep into his own soul and be a leader but by the same token, Sandi could be sabotaging him and not know it. Marriages are complicated messy arrangements. Especially between people wounded by divorce after divorce. No matter if one, both or non of the above have religion.

And if I may be so bold as to add to this comment....if husband feels like the counseling thing is so that HE will change...that's a pretty tough pill to swallow for any guy.

 

[Sirk]

I was almost trying to give some thoughts to what Sirk was trying to say but when he finished saying " Give us some facts, Sands etc…, I knew he was just simply pre-conditionned to downplay whatever Sand had to say.
She has been given facts about the state of the relationship for the beginning..I am not sure what facts Sirk wants. That she shows marks of beatings, and scars? The man is not here to say anything in his defence, that's fair argument, but we all know Men don't like expand on how they feel, let alone be exposed for what they might be doing for all to see if they are true.
I don't want to say it , Sirk, but you might be giving a hard time to your own wife and expect her to give some "facts" before questioning your own attitude?
I am wondering.


This woman wouldn't come to an anonymous forum just for the simple pleasure of bashing her husband.
Common sense. There is something going on.

Of course there is something going on...and from personal experience it's a total communication breakdown. It likely has much to with children. Hubby is angry and he doesn't know why, wife feels like she is the whipping post of his anger and they're both stuck in a marital death spiral.

To answer your question about my wife. Guess what....we argue...sometimes we both need to apologize and we do, sometimes one of us needs to apologize and we do. My wife can be pushy and controlling and I can be distant and cold....,but we were made for each other and divorce is not an option for either one of us. We also have great make up you know what. Lol

 

[sunburn]

Of course there is something going on...and from personal experience it's a total communication breakdown. It likely has much to with children. Hubby is angry and he doesn't know why, wife feels like she is the whipping post of his anger and they're both stuck in a marital death spiral.

To answer your question about my wife. Guess what....we argue...sometimes we both need to apologize and we do, sometimes one of us needs to apologize and we do. My wife can be pushy and controlling and I can be distant and cold....,but we were made for each other and divorce is not an option for either one of us. We also have great make up you know what. Lol

It could be a result of a communication breakdown and it's a fair observation. The consequences is that it is leading to abuse. Might be children,might be her weight gain, might be a lot of random others things…

If you abuse a partner verbally , continually, and don't apologise ,you are being abusive simple.It is not rocket science.If you don't repent and continually choose to hurt and cause offence, demean, calling name,…you are being abusive.
It is not acceptable.

ps: Good to hear about the make up what we know

 

[Sirk]

So with all that I've shared, I'm going to leave this thread with these words to you Sands.

For right or wrong reasons, your husband resents you. You have triggered something deep in him. And because he resents you, he no longer sees you as you really are or your true heart. I don't think he purposely lied to you about who he was. I think he was just being the man that he wanted to be.... for you. It was easy for him because you were also being your best version of you...for him.

Since you are obviously the one who wants to grow thru this....I encourage you to find a way for him to tell you why he resents you and to let him share that with you and to keep a stiff upper lip and receive it. I mean seriously, you're a woman and infinitely smarter than him cuz he is a man. So be smart and do what a wise Godly woman would do and mold him (using your sly as a fox techniques that I know all you women possess) into the club wielding provider for you and your children that you need him to be. Translation: build him up. If he doesn't respond...he doesn't deserve you.

 

[dabodab]

Ok, a good lawyer goes on the evidence what he or she has. The reasonable lawyer knows how to determine issues in view of proportionality and what are superficial inferences. You may know law but do you know psychology. Do you even read legal journals, for instance Grams, M. (2004) relating to children, guardian ad litems, abusive fathers, I put it to you, do you really know a thing or two? Unless you know psychology I don't care if you're the best lawyer in the world, you will not understand what goes on in the mind of dangerous men. Are you also aware of the inter state precedents that manipulative/ dangerous alienated husbands use (even though the ratio is for women to escape dangerous partners) to move their son or daughter to a different state? How about emotional problems, if a woman has emotional issues (you know what some of us would call post trauma and likely anxiety) would this mean that the emotionality extends to the children? No, but the US Court judges seem to think so.

Why yes I do know some psychology but am not familiar with the site you refer to. I do know a thing or toe about family law and many of it's victims. I do not understand what goes on on the mind of dangerous men, no. But I watch a ton of investigative reality shows so I probably understand the dangerous mind of men a little. Plus I know some men. I am aware of the propensity of a parent to abscond with children across state lines, yes. I totally understand issues with post trauma and anxiety, but you seem to have answered that question on your own!

Will there be anything else? Simply respond to any old post of mine and ask unrelated questions again, I live to be of service. <wink>

 

[sunburn]

So with all that I've shared, I'm going to leave this thread with these words to you Sands.

For right or wrong reasons, your husband resents you. You have triggered something deep in him. And because he resents you, he no longer sees you as you really are or your true heart. I don't think he purposely lied to you about who he was. I think he was just being the man that he wanted to be.... for you. It was easy for him because you were also being your best version of you...for him.

Since you are obviously the one who wants to grow thru this....I encourage you to find a way for him to tell you why he resents you and to let him share that with you and to keep a stiff upper lip and receive it. I mean seriously, you're a woman and infinitely smarter than him cuz he is a man. So be smart and do what a wise Godly woman would do and mold him (using your sly as a fox techniques that I know all you women possess) into the club wielding provider for you and your children that you need him to be. Translation: build him up. If he doesn't respond...he doesn't deserve you.

Disagree…there is a possibility that she might not be the one who triggered anything in him.
The issue that husband and wife might use the other as a punching bag doesn't necessarily mean one of them did something to deserve a bad treatment.
The man could have unresolved issues. and using marriage as a cover up, an escape , at the woman expenses... but things is not working out the way he wants so he is trying to push his way in….Could be a way of looking at it.


I agree however that she can build him up…and let God help her, discover what he is angry or resentful about...

 

[ChristianUk13]

Why yes I do know some psychology but am not familiar with the site you refer to. I do know a thing or toe about family law and many of it's victims. I do not understand what goes on on the mind of dangerous men, no. But I watch a ton of investigative reality shows so I probably understand the dangerous mind of men a little. Plus I know some men. I am aware of the propensity of a parent to abscond with children across state lines, yes. I totally understand issues with post trauma and anxiety, but you seem to have answered that question on your own!

Will there be anything else? Simply respond to any old post of mine and ask unrelated questions again, I live to be of service. <wink>

If what I said to you about legal points was not relevant to the question neither was it when you said you were au fait with law. So it was a relevant question to you, in other words don't boast of qualification. It was not a site i made reference to it was a professional legal journal pertaining to family law and its domestic injustices. Do you read academic commentary when making decisions in family law? My point was not that there was a propensity for parents to abscond with children, rather my substantive point was that the inter state law is being manipulated for that purpose when it was intended for genuine emergencies. Will there be anything else, yes, please do not answer with information non-specific to my question. If you try to be sarcastic with me because you felt a little inferior to me challenging you, that's ok I will have to accept that. But don't be too surprised when i may at times return it. I wish people would think things through before guessing what the answer should be.

 

[Sirk]

I wasn't going to come back here but this thread has gotten so derailed and I didn't want the following to slip through for Sands not to see it. Instead of the link I posted earlier I'll just copy and paste the whole thing:

John Gottman’s FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE
1. Criticism:
Attacking your partner’s personality or character, usually with the intent of making someone right and someone wrong:
Generalizations: “you always...” “you never...”“you’re the type of person who ...” “why are you so ...”
2. Contempt:
Attacking your partner’s sense of self with the intention to insult or psychologically abuse him/her:
- Insults and name-calling: “*****, bastard, wimp, fat, stupid, ugly, slob, lazy...” - Hostile humor, sarcasm or mockery - Body language & tone of voice: sneering, rolling your eyes, curling your upper lip
3. Defensiveness:
Seeing self as the victim, warding off a perceived attack:
- Making excuses (e.g., external circumstances beyond your control forced you to act in a certain way) “It’s not my fault...”, “I didn’t...”
- Cross-complaining: meeting your partner’s complaint, or criticism with a complaint of your own, ignoring what your partner said
- Disagreeing and then cross-complaining “That’s not true, you’re the one who ...” “I did this because you did that...”
- Yes-butting: start off agreeing but end up disagreeing - Repeating yourself without paying attention to what the other person is saying - Whining “It’s not fair.”
4. Stonewalling:
Withdrawing from the relationship as a way to avoid conflict. Partners may think they are trying to be “neutral” but stonewalling conveys disapproval, icy distance, separation, disconnection, and/or smugness: - Stony silence - Monosyllabic mutterings - Changing the subject - Removing yourself physically - Silent TreatmentRemedies:
- Learn to make specific complaints & requests (when X happened, I felt Y, I want Z)
- Conscious communication: Speaking the unarguable truth & listening generously
- Validate your partner (let your partner know what makes sense to you about what they are saying; let them know you understand what they are feeling, see through their eyes)
- Shift to appreciation (5 times as much positive feeling & interaction as negative) - Claim responsibility: “What can I learn from this?” & “What can I do about it?”
- Re-write your inner script (replace thoughts of righteous indignation or innocent victimization with thoughts of appreciation, responsibility that are soothing & validating)
- Practice getting undefended (allowing your partner’s utterances to be what they really are: just thoughts and puffs of air) and let go of the stories that you are making up
© Bob & Marlene Neufeld and Mary Ann Carmichael, 2005; Marlene & Bob based on Gottman, John. 1994. Why Marriages Succeed or Fail

 

[dabodab]

If what I said to you about legal points was not relevant to the question neither was it when you said you were au fait with law. So it was a relevant question to you, in other words don't boast of qualification. It was not a site i made reference to it was a professional legal journal pertaining to family law and its domestic injustices. Do you read academic commentary when making decisions in family law? My point was not that there was a propensity for parents to abscond with children, rather my substantive point was that the inter state law is being manipulated for that purpose when it was intended for genuine emergencies. Will there be anything else, yes, please do not answer with information non-specific to my question. If you try to be sarcastic with me because you felt a little inferior to me challenging you, that's ok I will have to accept that. But don't be too surprised when i may at times return it.

I like your sarcasm, and touché.

Try to understand; your challenge was moot, in that I mentioned my relation to 'the law' as an endorsement of my previous comment, not for you or anyone else to suppose anything in particular, ie., there was no intention on my part to boast qualification, but rather qualify the comment. And as has been the theme throughout this thread, you, yourself, make an assumption, based on the vast world of the 'legal field', that I am a lawyer! Had the reference been to the medical field, would you have assumed me a doctor? The evidence proves so.

Unfortunately 'site' was a typo: it should have read 'cite'. I'm not sure how I can continue to sound smart when my smart phone is dumb. Now do you understand? So, with that all said, yes I have read legal journals but do not as a rule. Because I don't make decisions.

I wish people would think things through before guessing what the answer should be

This sentence makes absolutely no sense at all! I could argue it and expound on the twisted use of words, but why? <smile> Not sure how you expect me to continue this pose and answer your specific question, when it is neither specific or relevant.

 

[Sirk]

Disagree…there is a possibility that she might not be the one who triggered anything in him.

If you understand anything about second marriages, which I gather from your profile that you don't have the foggiest idea...that they are quite possibly one of the most prolific interpersonal relationship minefields one can navigate. I could give you an expose on the ins and outs of the struggles concerning children, exes, family friends etc but this isn't the place for that.

The issue that husband and wife might use the other as a punching bag doesn't necessarily mean one of them did something to deserve a bad treatment.

No one said anything about "deserving" to be treated bad...you have made an insinuation that is simply false. When you add up all the stress from the struggles I mentioned and time and a dehumanization of the spouse due to the fostering of bad thoughts about the other it adds up to resentment and bad behavior. It's really as simple as that.

The man could have unresolved issues. and using marriage as a cover up, an escape , at the woman expenses... but things is not working out the way he wants so he is trying to push his way in….Could be a way of looking at it.

Of course he has unresolved issues...everyone does. For the bible says that if you claim to have no sin you are a liar and the truth is not in you. Push his way in?? You have no understanding of men at all. He is in full man shutdown protection mode...which consists of pushing the other away. He feels powerless so he is (albeit in an immature fashion) trying to regain his power.

Based on the number of people I know in this exact same circumstance as well as my wife and I's struggles, this couple are co-conspirators in ignorance. They don't know how to communicate with each other.

 

[sunburn]

If you understand anything about second marriages, which I gather from your profile that you don't have the foggiest idea...that they are quite possibly one of the most prolific interpersonal relationship minefields one can navigate. I could give you an expose on the ins and outs of the struggles concerning children, exes, family friends etc but this isn't the place for that.



No one said anything about "deserving" to be treated bad...you have made an insinuation that is simply false. When you add up all the stress from the struggles I mentioned and time and a dehumanization of the spouse due to the fostering of bad thoughts about the other it adds up to resentment and bad behavior. It's really as simple as that.



Of course he has unresolved issues...everyone does. For the bible says that if you claim to have no sin you are a liar and the truth is not in you. Push his way in?? You have no understanding of men at all. He is in full man shutdown protection mode...which consists of pushing the other away. He feels powerless so he is (albeit in an immature fashion) trying to regain his power.

Based on the number of people I know in this exact same circumstance as well as my wife and I's struggles, this couple are co-conspirators in ignorance. They don't know how to communicate with each other.

These behaviours don't have to emanate from a second marriage.
If you are referring to recomposed families, I could understand the complexities of emotions involved but some Men display these behaviours whether they are in their first to third marriages or any marriage.

I am not totally disagreeing with you but I have a problem when you insist on making her co responsible somehow for his behaviour. The man could be in his second, third marriage and carry behavioural problems and the woman might have nothing to do with his default character. Yet you insist on making it a matter of man protection mode based on the woman's behaviour…or a communication problem between the two when truly, the man somehow doesn't know how to deal with his own emotions.
It's unwise that a husband has to result to resentment to the other partner for not "getting" him when he is carrying within him unresolved issues from who knows where.
But then you would say this is marriage.

I guess you are a man so I appreciate your take on it, and as a woman, who have been married before, experiencing a similar cycle, I can assure you the issues at end can sometimes be deeper than the woman could ever imagine. The man knows he will not allow his woman to discover who he truly is. So he is playing the blame game and making life miserable all around because he himself is unable to face who he truly is let alone let others see it.

Resentment as part of a reason for abuse is never acceptable nor an excuse. An angry man can easily kill a woman regardless of whether he was right to do it or wrong and that's where I had a problem with the tone of your argument against the OP from the beginning. There are signs that this situation is to be dealt with on a urgent level. Yet you seemed to say that she was making mountains out of molehills , thus downplaying her sense of protection as well.

and I think we are talking about the same thing from a different perspective with different reasons.

Marriage is harder as it is, recomposed families are worst and everyone knows that.

 

[Sirk]

These behaviours don't have to emanate from a second marriage.
If you are referring to recomposed families, I could understand the complexities of emotions involved but some Men display these behaviours whether they are in their first to third marriages or any marriage.

I am not totally disagreeing with you but I have a problem when you insist on making her co responsible somehow for his behavior. The man could be in his second, third marriage and carry behavioural problems and the woman might have nothing to do with his default character. Yet you insist on making it a matter of man protection mode based on the woman's behaviour…or a communication problem between the two when truly, the man somehow doesn't know how to deal with his own emotions.
It's unwise that a husband has to result to resentment to the other partner for not "getting" him when he is carrying within him unresolved issues from who knows where.
But then you would say this is marriage.

I guess you are a man so I appreciate your take on it, and as a woman, who have been married before, experiencing a similar cycle, I can assure you the issues at end can sometimes be deeper than the woman could ever imagine. The man knows he will not allow his woman to discover who he truly is. So he is playing the blame game and making life miserable all around because he himself is unable to face who he truly is let alone let others see it.

Resentment as part of a reason for abuse is never acceptable nor an excuse. An angry man can easily kill a woman regardless of whether he was right to do it or wrong and that's where I had a problem with the tone of your argument against the OP from the beginning. There are signs that this situation is to be dealt with on a urgent level. Yet you seemed to say that she was making mountains out of molehills , thus downplaying her sense of protection as well.

and I think we are talking about the same thing from a different perspective with different reasons.

Marriage is harder as it is, recomposed families are worst and everyone knows that.

But yet she chose him...there was an unhealthy attribute that she accepted in the beginning...consciously or unconsciously. Usually people cannot identify it.

 

[sunburn]

But yet she chose him...there was an unhealthy attribute that she accepted in the beginning...consciously or unconsciously. Usually people cannot identify it.

I can now safely say that you've just exposed an absolutely biased and unhealthy mind you have.
Your reason for "advising" the op the way you did was simply based on the fact that you think she herself chose her partner so she should just deal with her problem, because she might have consciously or uncousciously attracted an abuser?!!

I am glad to say that You have issues.Someone said up there that he pitied your wife.
I have to agree now.

What you just demonstrated is that you have absolutely no grounds for arguments apart from trying to justify your own unhealthy behabiours and mind.

 

[Sirk]

Now you're just being mean. Nice job of gas lighting tho.

 

[sunburn]

Sirk…I am serious.

 

[Sirk]

I know you are being serious....and you are making it personal....and you have no idea what you're talking about. Your reaction simply proves you are arguing purely from an emotional viewpoint.

 

[biscuit]

My second marriage is in trouble, and I'm at my breaking point. My first divorce was due to infidelity, and I thought I was being so careful when I married again. My husband claimed to be everything I prayed for. He had all the right answers concerning his faith and what he desired from a Christian marriage, but I soon discovered he had lied. I have always felt I had the gift of discernment, so I feel like such a fool. He is verbally abusive, and his moods control our lives. Though we had premarital counseling focused on second marriage and stepchildren, he loathes my son and finds any excuse to criticize him. I have endured eight years because we have a child together and because I keep believing that my prayers will be answered, but I'm so broken right now. He says he will go to counseling but always backs out. I'm going, and I'm struggling to continue to uplift him. I don't want to talk to my friends because I don't want to harm his reputation. I am hoping for your friendship, prayers, and advice.

There is really very little you or a counselor can do if he won't cooperate. It is really up to you to get him to talk about what is really bothering him. It can be a problem relate to his childhood or a rejection in high school and etc. Most men(and women) will not put all their cards on the table for a spouse or loved one to see out of fear of the info being abused or embarrassment. Most relationships will fail because of their inability to clean up the past history before entering another relationship. Carrying excess baggage into a new relationship rarely ever works out smoothly.

 

[Sirk]

There is really very little you or a counselor can do if he won't cooperate. It is really up to you to get him to talk about what is really bothering him. It can be a problem relate to his childhood or a rejection in high school and etc. Most men(and women) will not put all their cards on the table for a spouse or loved one to see out of fear of the info being abused or embarrassment. Most relationships will fail because of their inability to clean up the past history before entering another relationship. Carrying excess baggage into a new relationship rarely ever works out smoothly.

I agree with this and I disagree. This really isn't about getting Mr Sands into see a counseler. Since Sands says she is a Christian, it is about her learning and obeying what Christ has already established as far as her behavior as a follower of Jesus. You can string Mr Sands up on a pole all day long but he ain't the one here seeking guidance. Remember, God uses ALL things for good...so if Mrs Sands made a bad choice in choosing Mr Sands.....it's up to her to follow and trust Jesus as to what the outcome of her bad choice will be.

 

[tourist]

A brief synopsis of the general findings:


I have been very shocked to find out these types of men are often psychopaths with no conscience.
Abusers rarely, rarely change.
It will always be your fault, in his eyes.
Abusers never change.
No matter what you do he'll find some excuse to be angry at you.
I am sure you are trying everything to make this work.
He is not portraying any of the Christlike attitudes he showed himself to have before the marriage.
It might be best if you did leave.
Matthew 17:21 (translation: husband has a demon).
(He) is a liar.
Your husband knows that you would be devastated if you were to divorce the second time.
Yet [he] does nothing.


And my personal favorite, for the irony ~
... you have NO PROOF AT ALL that this is what's going on. All of this advice is based off of PURE SPECULATION.

****

People! There is no basis for all these accusations. Consider this: The OP has not stated what the suspected verbal abuser has even SAID. Shouldn't we at least hear a comment, a snippet of an example perhaps,by the verbal abuser? Instead, the OP generalized by saying he is demeaning and moody. That's all we know. The OP states that the counselor, with whom they would be having couples counseling, "knows all the details" but has given us not one morsel, and we are ready to throw this man in front of a fast moving moped!

In conclusion, I think we have gone mad.

I like the word snippet. It is one of my favorites.

 

[biscuit]

.....it's up to her to follow and trust Jesus as to what the outcome of her bad choice will be.

It is really a sad situation but Mrs. Sand can mitigate the pain if she can get him to talk about the real source of the problem, and both can try to rectify the dilemma. If not, she has two choices: live with it or seek a divorce. All remedies must & should be applied before initiating a divorce.