The Fixed Earth

[mercyswolf]

"If the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it: There is one God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Jesus (the Son) is savior of the world.

If the Earth is round and revolves around the Sun: There is one God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), Jesus (the Son) is savior of the world.

Either way, all truths found in the Bible regarding all things necessary for the salvation of your soul, my soul, and the soul of every person is still true! It's a win-win situation! Woo hoo!" (Originally posted by Suaso but for some reason wouldn't quote right)

No matter what my findings are during this study we all have to remember this one eternal truth. Thank you Suaso for putting this like it is. It's very much to the point. It wouldn't matter if the world was square and spun like a cube on a sphere it'd still be the same end result.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Your going round in circles, better you listen to Luther, better still you listen to God's word, I say this for your own benefit.

Are you personally into astrology by any chance?

 

[jcspartan]

Well Cup I do think it's strange that you would appeal to the use of the term astrologer for a man who was basically a scientist. Yet it is well known that true astrologers, use geocentric earth model... so, your view on the earth is already used by the devil. If deceivers such as astrologers use a geocentric model, what does that mean for your claims that geocentricity is the truth? Satan is the father of lies and so I think the astrologers must be lying too when they use geocentric model for their astrology. God's truth is the heliocentric model.

MahogonySnail,
In fairness there was not a lot distinction made for most of history between astrology and astronomy. Certain people like Ptolemy were more focused on study than others. But, Luther likely would not have seen the difference. Copernicus made some observations that fit more with astrology than true science. That does not detract from his scientific approach in other areas.

It does high light what is required of salvation. I cannot think of an early church father who would not have been geocentric.

Not trying to stir the already seething cauldron but

 

[loveschild]

When I was a kid they said Mars was so hot if you got anywhere near it you'd burn up. We get filled with all kinds of lies.

 

[Ancilla]

There are two questions that Cup continually sidesteps. If he's answered them and I've missed them, please quote where he's answered them so I can find his answer.

First of all, if he believes that the verses that he uses to support are meant to be taken in a purely scientific manner, in other word he interprets them to mean that the sun, planets and stars revolve around the earth. But, he can't put those verses in context. What he's saying is that verses are talking about the authority of God or whatever and then the topic suddenly changes to something scientific.

Secondly, in the KJV and Young's Literal Translation uses the word "moved" in reference to a person, such as in Psalm 62:6 "Only -- He [is] my rock and my salvation, My tower, I am not moved." So, does Cup always stay perfectly still or does he concede that the word "moved" was not meant to be taken literally, and he does concede the later then he needs address why he believes that the word "moved" is meant to be taken literally in relation to the world while taken figuratively in other parts of the Bible. Go ahead, look up the word "moved" in the keyword search on Biblegateway.com using Yonge's Literal Translation. It's pretty surprising how many times it's used like it is in Psalm 62.

Then I have another question for him to ignore: 1 Samuel 4:5 says in Young's Literal Translation, "And it cometh to pass, at the coming in of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah unto the camp, that all Israel shout -- a great shout -- and the earth is moved."

I really have to say something here, I find that when someone asks you a question on this forum that you don't want to answer because it would collapse your arguement, it's too easy to just ignore it. In real life debates, to ignore a question and ask a question in return or make comments on what someone else is saying does not fly, but it's easy to do on a internet forum. So, I suggest that if you see that someone is dodging a question, let them know that you're not going to answer their questions or make comments on what their saying until they answer the question they're avoiding.

 

[Ancilla]

When I was a kid they said Mars was so hot if you got anywhere near it you'd burn up. We get filled with all kinds of lies.

Who told you that? Because when I was a kid I was taught that Mars was further from the sun than Earth is. But you're right in that there's a lot of things that I got told when I was a kid that turned out to be bogus. I think the remedy to that is be careful what you repeat. When I was a kid if I heard something I'd accept it as true, but now when I hear something I ask where someone read it and then take that into account or I look into it myself.

 

[greatkraw]

Isaiah 24 (21st Century King James Version)


Isaiah 24

1Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

2And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of interest, so with the giver of interest to him.

3The land shall be utterly emptied and utterly despoiled; for the LORD hath spoken this word.

4The earth mourneth and fadeth away; the world languisheth and fadeth away; the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

7The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.

8The mirth of taborets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.

9They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall bebitter to them that drink it.

10The city of confusion is broken down; every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

11There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.

12In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.

13When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning of grapes when the vintage is done.

14They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing; for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.

15Therefore glorify ye the LORD in the valleys, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.

16From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, "My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! The treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously, yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."

17Fear and the pit and the snare are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

18And it shall come to pass that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit, and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare; for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

19The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21And it shall come to pass in that day that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23Then the moon shall be confounded and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders gloriously.


21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Then I have another question for him to ignore: 1 Samuel 4:5 says in Young's Literal Translation, "And it cometh to pass, at the coming in of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah unto the camp, that all Israel shout -- a great shout -- and the earth is moved."

1 Samuel 4:5;

"And when the ark of the covenant of the Lord came into the camp, all Israel shouted with a great shout, so that the earth Rang again." KJV.

You might want to consider what happens when large amount of people all shout at the same time, obviously a loud noise is sounded. Lets have a look at the translation of the word huwm - #1949 Strong's Concordance; 'to make an uproar or agitate greatly'.

Appears to me that there was a great shout, which is an audible sound of maginitude so loud that it reverberated in the earth, so it was felt as a vibration on the ground that one stood upon, due to the uproar of sound, a loud noice causing vibration - rang.

See also 1 Kings 1: 45, this word huwm is used only twice in the Bible; "They came up from thence rejoicing, so that the city rang. This is the noise that ye have heard."

Appears to me that this word is used for the vibrations due to sound.

I really have to say something here, I find that when someone asks you a question on this forum that you don't want to answer because it would collapse your arguement, it's too easy to just ignore it.

I happy to answer question you may have, and correct your errors.

 

[greatkraw]

Cup, I am happy to correct your scientific and doctrinal errors and those of anyone else; especially Snail.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Cup, I am happy to correct your scientific and doctrinal errors and those of anyone else; especially Snail.

I'd like to see you try .

 

[Graybeard]

When I was a kid they said Mars was so hot if you got anywhere near it you'd burn up. We get filled with all kinds of lies.

Who told you that?

Note the age gap my dear

 

[Graybeard]

I happy to answer question you may have, and correct your errors.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

then why have you avoided my question to you?
from what source do you get your information from?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Isaiah 24 (21st Century King James Version)


Isaiah 24

1Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.

2And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of interest, so with the giver of interest to him.

3The land shall be utterly emptied and utterly despoiled; for the LORD hath spoken this word.

4The earth mourneth and fadeth away; the world languisheth and fadeth away; the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

6Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

7The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.

8The mirth of taborets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.

9They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall bebitter to them that drink it.

10The city of confusion is broken down; every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

11There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.

12In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.

13When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning of grapes when the vintage is done.

14They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing; for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.

15Therefore glorify ye the LORD in the valleys, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.

16From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, "My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! The treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously, yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."

17Fear and the pit and the snare are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

18And it shall come to pass that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit, and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare; for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

19The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21And it shall come to pass in that day that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23Then the moon shall be confounded and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem and before His elders gloriously.


21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

KJV - E.W Bullinger Translation Notes - Isaiah 24; Omit. earth = the ground, soil. Heb. ha-adamah

Obviously as E.W. Bullinger confirms 'earth' highlighted by the soil specific ha-adamah, does not refer to the entire earth erets in a cosmolgical sense, God is not contradciting His own word as someone with limited knowledge of the Biblical language may infer, for example one might understand that the earth of a particular area moved greatly during an earthquake, the earth may seem like a drunken sailor, however we know that this is due to the movement of the earth crust, It does not imply that the entire sphere of the Earth literally got drunk of intoxicating liquor and stumbled around causing all the earth to sway to and fro.

 

[Graybeard]

but that is what the Word says...it is THE WORD OF GOD, God does not lie, right?

Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

 

[greatkraw]

I just did a survey, 2 Aussies in every 3 are heretics. (very small sample size)

Are you blokes in Sydney?

Wanna go see 2012?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Nor does it mean that the Earth itself is actually a Sailor, but it is possible that someone may actually argue that the Earth is a drunken sailor. This is actually what Bible Scholars call Anthropomorphism, Do rivers have hands to clap? (Ps. 98:8)

 

[jcspartan]

Nor does it mean that the Earth itself is actually a Sailor, but it is possible that someone may actually argue that the Earth is a drunken sailor. This is actually what Bible Scholars call Anthropomorphism, Do rivers have hands to clap? (Ps. 98:8)

Cup-of-Ruin
I think most of us on the opposite of this debate from you accept metaphor, anthropomorphism, hyperbole and other figurative language. The question is how do you determine the difference? You will hold to a literal translation to the point of being near all but flat earth. So, how is it that you can take some passages that are descriptive of the ancient cosmological view and not others?

You are making the argument for a geocentric earth. Whether it is me asking you what you consider to be a valid source or Ancilla or Greybeard asking you for your source we cannot even debate with common terms because the parameters are not defined.

There are scientific communities that evaluate scientific method through peer review via journals, conferences, etc. Even if you espouse geocentric universe there are some kind of standard within the community like the Association for Biblical Astronomy which at least lays out their views. Do you buy into the Tyco Brahe's ideas or whoever?

Right now we have seen little more than You Tube clips of individuals. If you are coming to this on your own then fine. Say so.

 

[Ancilla]

Note the age gap my dear

Well, I don't know for a fact when we figured out where Mars is inrelation to the earth and the sun. I'd be very surprised if it happened in her lifetime. If it was, please tell me when it was, because I'm no good at astronomy. But I assumed that we've known at least since the time of Copernicus that Venus is closer to the sun and that Mars is further away from the sun since Venus can be seen in the morning light and Mars can only be seen at night. Secondly, in the 1960s they started launching unmanned vessels towards Mars, so it's pretty unlikely that they had only recently figured out where Mars is in relation to everything else. However, since you knew I knew she's not 500 years old, I think what she meant is that what we hear and believe isn't what's always scientifically accurate. Like, there's a real difference between what the experts in different scientific fields and what's common knowledge. We tend to forget that that which we learned in school about science that we take for granted such as gravity, photosynthesis, vitamins are important for nutition, hot air rises, all energy comes from the sun, matter is made of elements, that kind of thing, all at one point was considered cutting edge by scientists.

 

[Ancilla]

1 Samuel 4:5;

"And when the ark of the covenant of the Lord came into the camp, all Israel shouted with a great shout, so that the earth Rang again." KJV.

You might want to consider what happens when large amount of people all shout at the same time, obviously a loud noise is sounded. Lets have a look at the translation of the word huwm - #1949 Strong's Concordance; 'to make an uproar or agitate greatly'.

Appears to me that there was a great shout, which is an audible sound of maginitude so loud that it reverberated in the earth, so it was felt as a vibration on the ground that one stood upon, due to the uproar of sound, a loud noice causing vibration - rang.

See also 1 Kings 1: 45, this word huwm is used only twice in the Bible; "They came up from thence rejoicing, so that the city rang. This is the noise that ye have heard."

Appears to me that this word is used for the vibrations due to sound.


I happy to answer question you may have, and correct your errors.

Ok, so are you acknowledging that "move" in the Bible doesn't always mean "move"? Now please go back through the thread and answer my question about Psalm 62 and my questions about the significance of the verses you quoted.

 

[Ancilla]

Well, I don't know for a fact when we figured out where Mars is inrelation to the earth and the sun. I'd be very surprised if it happened in her lifetime. If it was, please tell me when it was, because I'm no good at astronomy. But I assumed that we've known at least since the time of Copernicus that Venus is closer to the sun and that Mars is further away from the sun since Venus can be seen in the morning light and Mars can only be seen at night. Secondly, in the 1960s they started launching unmanned vessels towards Mars, so it's pretty unlikely that they had only recently figured out where Mars is in relation to everything else. However, since you knew I knew she's not 500 years old, I think what she meant is that what we hear and believe isn't what's always scientifically accurate. Like, there's a real difference between what the experts in different scientific fields and what's common knowledge. We tend to forget that that which we learned in school about science that we take for granted such as gravity, photosynthesis, vitamins are important for nutition, hot air rises, all energy comes from the sun, matter is made of elements, that kind of thing, all at one point was considered cutting edge by scientists.

Nobody respond to that. I don't want to get off topic. This thread is about Cup trying to defend his interpretation of the Bible not at which point in the past 500 years the location of Mars became common knowledge.