ONCE saved always saved!.

[Jason0047]

It doesn't. Then why does Jesus say to the ones who did not do the works depart from me to everlasting punishment.

They obviously did not get the salvation of eternal life because they did not do the works. ( helping others )

Again, changed believers (i.e. butterfies) are going to naturally do those things that God wants them to do (i.e. to fly). Can a believer resist God? Yes. Believers backslide into sin and they need to renew their faith in God. But a changed believer who confesses and repents and strives to please God is going to be malleable to God and His will. God is going to give them opportuniies to help them and give them the strength to do those things that they might think are hard. But salvation is not in giving to the poor. Salvation (Jesus) transforms a person's life so that they become malleable like clay to allow God to do the "good work" in giving to the poor in His name. Not in my name. I can't save. Jesus' name. For it is Jesus that works within me. In other words, those who are truly born again will be helping the poor and sacrificing themselves for the cause of the faith. For is a person saved by going thru the motions externally? No. We seen Judas do that. Salvation is internal (in the heart by God) which then produces external results.

 

[Skinski7]

Let me put it to you another way. Caterpillars don't fly. It is only when they become transformed into butterflies when they are able to fly. It's the same with a believer. When they are born again for real, they are malleable like clay to God's will and plan for their life so as to allow Him to do the "good work" within them.

No. The malleability comes BEFORE the new birth. One cannot be inwardly transformed without first forsaking ones rejection of God's ways.

Do you believe in birth depravity? It sounds like you may.

 

[Jason0047]

No. The malleability comes BEFORE the new birth. One cannot be inwardly transformed without first forsaking ones rejection of God's ways.

Do you believe in birth depravity? It sounds like you may.

I never said that we don't become malleable before God before receiving of the new birth. I said we have to yield to God in a broken heart so as to be malleable to His will and so that He can do the "good work" within us. Yielding to God and repentance is not a work. It takes no effort on my part to actually repent. From that point. Once we contineue stay broken to God or if we stay humble before Him thru continued repentance (i.e. if we mess up on occasion), then God will continue to do amazing things within our lives. Not me. God.

 

[Skinski7]

A "work" is simply doing something. The opposite of a work is being passive.

Repentance is indeed a work. It is not a work done apart from God on an island so to speak (for it is wrought through GOd's influence on the heart through the light of conscience).

It is a tragedy that "works" is a dirty word when used in conjunction with salvation to many.

There are first works which must be done.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Faith itself is a work because it is the dynamic of yielding to God from the heart. Faith is something we do.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

 

[kennethcadwell]

I never said that we don't become malleable before God before receiving of the new birth. I said we have to yield to God in a broken heart so as to be malleable to His will and so that He can do the "good work" within us. Yielding to God and repentance is not a work. It takes no effort on my part to actually repent. From that point. Once we contineue stay broken to God or if we stay humble before Him thru continued repentance (i.e. if we mess up on occasion), then God will continue to do amazing things within our lives. Not me. God.

You say repentance is not a work because it takes no effort for you to repent. Some will disagree with you though, because some have been walking in their sins so long it has become a natural every day way of life to them.

To change from that is hard for them, and have to through the help of the Holy Spirit work on it day in and day out for awhile tell they can do with out it.

When you repent it is not an immediate transformation for most.

Examples: smoking, and drinking ( A lot of people have to take steps and require help to quite, and this may take days or months for some )

 

[Skinski7]

The issue I see here is that people have been ingrained with theological catch phrases that are triggered when certain concepts are brought forth.

In a sense these theological quips serve as an antidote to the truth. People immediately find comfort in these catch phrases because they have heard them repeated so many times throughout their experience. Say something often enough and it can come to appear as a truth.

 

[Jason0047]

While I agree with you on OSAS, I strongly disagree some other things. You said all one has to do to be saved is to repent and accept Jesus as your personal savior. But I don't remember a single case in the NT where "accepting Jesus as your personal savior " was what anyone did to be saved.

If repentance and confession are not works, ( and I agree) then why is baptism? All three are demands of Christ and we are trusting in Him to save us.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about our own works that we think will help save us. But he is not talking about works of obedience.

i don't understand how these verses on baptism can be ignored. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Matt. 28, Mark 16:-5-16, Gal. 3:26-27, and others.

I disagree there is little or no work in repenting. It can be, because repenting is not just changing your mind, but also involves a commitment to change one's sinful ways.

I want you to ask God for understanding when you read 1 Peter 3:21. Ask Him what He says that passage means and then seek out what other believers say on the subject from both sides of the debate. Read commentaries. Compare Scripture with Scripture. For the word "saved" does not always reference salvation. How so? Well, in context of 1 Peter 3:21, Peter explains that baptism saves us but not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (Which Paul also talks about the filth of the flesh in 2 Corinthians 7:1). Peter says we are saved in having a good conscience toward God. Having a good conscience has nothing to do with the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin).

For the Scriptures essentially say, if we were justified by works we could glory in this before God (See verse 2 below).

Romans 4:1-7
1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[kennethcadwell]

Again, changed believers (i.e. butterfies) are going to naturally do those things that God wants them to do (i.e. to fly). Can a believer resist God? Yes. Believers backslide into sin and they need to renew their faith in God. But a changed believer who confesses and repents and strives to please God is going to be malleable to God and His will. God is going to give them opportuniies to help them and give them the strength to do those things that they might think are hard. But salvation is not in giving to the poor. Salvation (Jesus) transforms a person's life so that they become malleable like clay to allow God to do the "good work" in giving to the poor in His name. Not in my name. I can't save. Jesus' name. For it is Jesus that works within me. In other words, those who are truly born again will be helping the poor and sacrificing themselves for the cause of the faith. For is a person saved by going thru the motions externally? No. We seen Judas do that. Salvation is internal (in the heart by God) which then produces external results.

Yes but that scripture shows that both groups believed in Jesus as Lord.

It does not say rather or not they repented, were baptized, or confessed Him before men. It just says that they did not help others who were in need, and because of that they were cast out to eternal punishment.

So it shows that you can repent of your sins, be baptized, and even confess Him as Lord, but if you then do not do the works that follows you still will not receive salvation. It is very much a part of salvation.

It is one of many conditions that Jesus says one must do for salvation. Else wise He will say I never knew you, depart from Me.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes but that scripture shows that both groups believed in Jesus as Lord.

It does not say rather or not they repented, were baptized, or confessed Him before men. It just says that they did not help others who were in need, and because of that they were cast out to eternal punishment.

So it shows that you can repent of your sins, be baptized, and even confess Him as Lord, but if you then do not do the works that follows you still will not receive salvation. It is very much a part of salvation.

It is one of many conditions that Jesus says one must do for salvation. Else wise He will say I never knew you, depart from Me.

Actually, Matthew 7 does not say anything about helping the poor. It is other verses that say so. In Mathew 7, it actually says that they did many wonderful things in His name, but Jesus said, I never knew. He said depart from me, ye that work iniquity. In other words, doing something to save yourself when you are already saved is insulting what God did for you. This does not mean we are to ignore the conviction of God's Spirit and give to the poor. But you have to realize, who was more justified before the Lord? Was it the Tax Collector who cried out to have mercy upon him in being a sinner, or was it the Pharisee who thought he was God's child and who was better righteously compared to the Tax Collector? (See Luke 18:9-14). The point that Jesus was making is not that He was condoning the Tax Collector to live a sinful life or in any way that he desired. The point that Jesus was trying to tell us is that God's grace is there for us when we mess up. So if you are not giving to the poor currently because maybe you have to provide for your family, or maybe because you are trapped in a jungle for a few months, you are not condemned by God. For we have God's grace to fall back upon. Not to get away with doing bad. No. No. It is so that we can do good. For His grace transforms us. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Jason0047]

A "work" is simply doing something. The opposite of a work is being passive.

The Jews took this to the extreme concerning the Sabbath. Jesus did not consider some things as servile work. For example: Helping your neighbor pull it's animal out of a ditch was not considered servile work to God.

Repentance is indeed a work. It is not a work done apart from God on an island so to speak (for it is wrought through GOd's influence on the heart through the light of conscience).

Is breathing a work?
Is eating a work?
Is sleeping a work?
Is going to the bathroom a work?

All these things above would be considered one in doing something.
But they are not the types of works that Jesus would have us to do.

It is a tragedy that "works" is a dirty word when used in conjunction with salvation to many.

Works is not a "dirty word." Works must be present in a believer's faith or it is a false faith. But works do not save you in and of themselves. Works is just the by product of having been saved.

There are first works which must be done.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Notice what this passage says.

Repent.

God did not say, do the first works and then repent.

Repentance comes first.

Why?

Because repentance brings Salvation (Jesus Christ).

Like I said, when you repent for real, then God can work in your heart and life.

For you have to understand that a person who backslides into sin cannot do anything for God unless they repent.

For when we are broken before God is when He can move within our lives so that we can do the first works (By allowing Jesus to work within us). For Jesus said in John 15, that we can do nothing without Him. It's not you that is saving you. Your works as a true believer are ultimately the works of God. For Galatians talks about how we are to have the fruit of the Spirit. It does not say that these fruits are of the believer.

Revelation 2:5 is not teaching salvation by works.
It is teaching salvation (by repentance) which will allow us to let the Lord work within us.
Revelation 2:5 is written from an outward or external perspective of what they needed to be like.
Repentance is that first step that would get them there.
Repentance to Jesus (Salvation) = (or results in) Works.
Not Repentance + Works = Salvation.

Faith itself is a work because it is the dynamic of yielding to God from the heart. Faith is something we do.

Hebrews 11 is the famous Heroes of faith chapter. In this chapter we learn that there is a very close relationship to faith and works. That by faith, such and such person did such and such action or work. What the writers is saying is that works proceed from faith. In James chapter 2, we see James hammer this point home. That a true faith will always have works. A false faith will not have works. For a faith no works is a dead faith. Works justifies or shows true a person's saving faith. It proves that God transformed your heart and proves that you have been allow Him to do the good work within you.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Yes, works proceed out of faith. But this passage does not actually say that works is saving you.

 

[konroh]

The people being written to in the churches of Rev. are believers. They are encouraged to do the first works. This has nothing to do with initial justification salvation and everything to do with continuing sanctification salvation.

And as to James 2, in the illustration of the body and spirit, which one is the faith and which is the works?


Very telling.

 

[Jason0047]

The people being written to in the churches of Rev. are believers. They are encouraged to do the first works. This has nothing to do with initial justification salvation and everything to do with continuing sanctification salvation.

In Revelation 2:5, while these believers might have been walking properly at one time in the Sanctification process it does not seem likely because they needed to do the first works with the Lord. This was their sin that had separated them from Him. Their sin was refusing to abide in the Lord by allowing Him to do the good works within them to begin with (i.e. first works). They needed to repent so as to be brought back to God or the faith and be renewed by God and be empowered by Him again. Their repentance would allow Jesus to cleanse them of their sin and then they would want to please God by allowing Christ to do the first works within them.

For Philippians 2:12-13 reveals to us that our obedience is actually God working in the believer.

Philippians 2:12-13
12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

And Repentance is what actually cleanses you of sin or unrighteousness. Not doing some kind of work.

Luke 24:47
"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Acts 8:22
"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee."

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

For works is just the natural result of having repented of our sins and being transformed spiritually whereby we can allow God to do the good work within us.

 

[Jason0047]

See, before the Fall, Adam had an external fellowship with God and not an internal fellowship. He tried to obey God without God living and moving within His heart and life. That is part of the reason why Jesus Christ had to come to save us. He not only needed to save mankind from their sins, but He also needed live within them and have an internal fellowship. For the first Adam was made a living soul and he represented the natural man. The second Adam was made a quickening Spirit and represented God Almighty in the flesh (i.e. the Word made flesh). For God is our strength. God is our salvation. Without him, we are nothing.

 

[Jason0047]

Without him, we are nothing.

And without Him, we can do nothing (See John chapter 15).

 

[JaumeJ]

He must increase, while we must decrease......amen.

 

[Jason0047]

And without Him, we can do nothing (See John chapter 15).

In other words, after the fall, sin then becomes about refusing to abide with God in an internal fellowship whereby He can move and work within their lives. It is about refusing to be with God.

For Salvation is a relationship; It's not works. For God does the work (For without Him we can do nothing).

 

[Jason0047]

He must increase, while we must decrease......amen.

Thanks my brother. I love that passage.

 

[newbirth]

]I want you to ask God for understanding when you read 1 Peter 3:21. Ask Him what He says that passage means and then seek out what other believers say on the subject from both sides of the debate. Read commentaries. Compare Scripture with Scripture. For the word "saved" does not always reference salvation. How so? Well, in context of 1 Peter 3:21, Peter explains that baptism saves us but not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (Which Paul also talks about the filth of the flesh in 2 Corinthians 7:1). Peter says we are saved in having a good conscience toward God. Having a good conscience has nothing to do with the putting away of the filth of the flesh (i.e. sin).

For the Scriptures essentially say, if we were justified by works we could glory in this before God (See verse 2 below).

First another translation...
[SUP]19 [/SUP]After being made alive,[SUP][d][/SUP] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— [SUP]20 [/SUP]to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[SUP][e][/SUP] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [SUP]22 [/SUP]who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Now Paul...
[SUP]13 [/SUP]He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

[/QUOTE]

For the Scriptures essentially say, if we were justified by works we could glory in this before God

That would be works of the law ....What other works could do that?

 

[newbirth]

In other words, after the fall, sin then becomes about refusing to abide with God in an internal fellowship whereby He can move and work within their lives. It is about refusing to be with God.

For Salvation is a relationship; It's not works. For God does the work (For without Him we can do nothing).

without him we can do nothing...and with him you are still doing nothing...He said you will bear fruit

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

 

[newbirth]

Yes, works proceed out of faith. But this passage does not actually say that works is saving you.

If works proceed out of faith then faith without works would be impossible...thus making James a liar...God gives us faith we have to do the works ...it's a choice if you don't do the works your faith is dead.(ineffective ) and we are saved by grace through faith...but a dead faith will not work