KILLINGS OF PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS BY ISRAELI FORCES
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Let me say that I wholly condemn Hamas killing Israelis, I think violence is a silly way to look for solutions. I also recognize the dehumanization of Palestinians for furthering Israeli propaganda. The Israelis say Palestinians are willing to use their own children as bartering tools against the Israelis, which is ridiculous. Civilian Palestinians are people like you and me, human beings, not monsters that are willing to sacrifice their own kids. Why do you think they bring their kids to UN safe zones to begin with? To protect them. What stops NATO deploying troops around these safe zones, stopping Hamas from using them to fire rockets from? Just as America promoted 'liberation and protection' of the Afghanis from the Taliban as part of the Afghan invasion, why do they not do similarly in Palestine? You know, during WW2, the Americans used to say the Japanese ate their own kids. Dehumanization has been a military propaganda tool for decades, centuries even, and Israel and some American media outlets seem to portray such things without making much distinction between Palestine civilians and Hamas. Why the double standard between say Afghanistan, and Palestine?
I recognize Hamas fire rockets towards Israel from near civilian standpoints; it's a desperate tactic. And sometimes they miss, not unlike the Mujahideen against the Russians, but if I imagine myself in that position, I would do such a thing not so much to endanger civilian lives as to try to save my own. Does it excuse the use of heavily overpowered ordinance against them, though? There's no need to drop a rocket capable of levelling several buildings when the target is a rocket launcher a few feet in diameter. It's certainly a problem that Hamas fire from civilian locations, but it's a bigger problem that Israel, with their F16's and precision targeting systems, highly trained infantry and special forces, don't seem to give a damn about levelling civilian buildings to the ground rather than use their training to limit civilian casualties. It's not the Hamas members who directly drop those missiles from F16's, so we can't hold them totally responsible. Certainly they aggravate circumstances, but what causes those deaths directly? Missiles from fighter jets, or the geographic position of the Hamas militants?
I also recognize some things more fundamental to the origin of this conflict; that is the illegal Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territory; the embargo of trade; the rationing of Palestinian water by Israel; the fact that 90% of Palestine's water supply is contaminated with sewage; the extremely dense population of Palestine compared to Israel and the very relevant fact that there were no militants in or around the school that got bombed on Sunday.
Israelis, by Palestinian standards, live cushy lives. They have a low population density, safety, clean water, security for the most part, military protection, lots of land in relation to their population size, a decent economy, various powerful world allies, 1st world education, opportunity, relative freedom of movement, food supplies, constant electricity, warmth, low mortality from conflict in contrast to Palestine etcetera etcetera.
Palestinians have a very high population density, high mortality from conflict, little freedom of movement, little clean water, intermittent electricity, fragile security, no real military protection, no genuine land ownership, a crumbled economy, allies who can do little to help their cause, shortages of food, unsafe schools and live in a very oppressed position.
So desperation comes from desperate situations and it's important that we, as onlookers, can view this conflict through not only the eyes of the Israelis, but also through the eyes of the Palestinian people.
What you're saying, about firing from civilian areas, could be said about any conflict such as this one. The forces with less means resort to more desperate measures. It's true that wherever there is conflict in a place with a very high population density, civilians are more at risk and to me, Israel could do far more to limit civilian casualties, considering their military might and the advanced equipment they have at their disposal.
It perhaps seems as though I am condemning Israel without pointing my fingers at Hamas, but that's not the case. I recognize Hamas as an organization willing to kill, I get that. What I'm saying is not meant to be a statement of my support for Hamas, but a statement of my willingness to look at both sides of the conflict through the eyes of civilians.
If you were a Palestinian civilian, living in conditions that Palestinians live in, how would you feel?
That's what I'm trying to get across.
I would feel greatly disadvantaged, a victim of injustice, knowing that Israel's occupation of Palestine territory since the 1960's is internationally illegal, knowing that Israel with all their military prowess are so willing to kill civilians. I would feel aggrieved at being trapped in what is effectively a walled-off section of land, a kill-box, facing daily struggle, food shortage, unclean water supplies, worrying constantly about whether my children will come home from school.
Of course, Israelis in the occupied territory also face these worries and I can also empathize with them. They are also scared, however as a matter of fact there are considerably less Israeli civilian deaths than Palestinian ones, by a factor of over 500. That's not me using a scoring system, it's me trying to get across the unfairness in condemning Palestinians as a whole, tarring them with the Hamas brush, supporting Israel without question when Palestinians are suffering so many more civilian casualties as a result of Israeli air strikes. I don't want to tally points and ask for even-stevens, I only want to get people to ask 'is my perspective fair?' 'Am I being unduly harsh towards Palestinian civilians?'
The message of many on this thread is 'Hamas are the responsible party', 'Hamas are to blame', 'Palestine deserve it', but can we honestly say that if Israel wanted to take out small targets they couldn't use more subtle means of doing so? Can we honestly say that Israel can rightly justify using this heavy ordinance and causing mass overkill, then escape all blame for doing so?
I don't want people to take sides at all, and that's not what I intend to do here. I'm not asking everyone to switch sides, I'm asking people to look at this from an empathetic standpoint, taking in mind the grievances and injustices on both sides of the fence. To stop laying blame at the feet of civilians, lumping Palestinian innocents in with Hamas, and to ask questions of Israel who are by far the more dominant entity in this conflict. Because in my eyes, power such as Israel's should be handled with great responsibility.
Certainly, Israel must protect its citizens, but there are far more peaceable means of doing so.
Israel have an extraordinarily low population density, almost five times less that of the UK. So, there is no reason why Israel cannot begin evacuating Israeli citizens out of Israeli occupied 'hot-zones' near the Gaza strip. There is no reason Israel can't counter-attack against Hamas rocket strikes by more precisely and proportionately targeting those rocket launchers, by operating special forces units to retrieve or neutralize specific Hamas targets.
What I am saying is that the extraordinary number of Palestinian civilian deaths is unnecessary, and it inflames this conflict, more and more every day.
What I genuinely would like to see is people on this thread trying to see this with a view to minimizing civilian casualties and with understanding that this conflict can't be solved by conflict itself. It's far from an ideal situation, certainly, but it is undoubtedly made more ugly when such relentless means seem to justify the ends for so many people.
I mean, Israel are occupying Palestinian land and forcing Palestinians to live like slum-dwellers and I don't think any of us would respond well to that. That's not justification for Hamas, they could have approached this politically, but it is an indictment of Israeli policy.
I recognize Hamas fire rockets towards Israel from near civilian standpoints; it's a desperate tactic. And sometimes they miss, not unlike the Mujahideen against the Russians, but if I imagine myself in that position, I would do such a thing not so much to endanger civilian lives as to try to save my own. Does it excuse the use of heavily overpowered ordinance against them, though? There's no need to drop a rocket capable of levelling several buildings when the target is a rocket launcher a few feet in diameter. It's certainly a problem that Hamas fire from civilian locations, but it's a bigger problem that Israel, with their F16's and precision targeting systems, highly trained infantry and special forces, don't seem to give a damn about levelling civilian buildings to the ground rather than use their training to limit civilian casualties. It's not the Hamas members who directly drop those missiles from F16's, so we can't hold them totally responsible. Certainly they aggravate circumstances, but what causes those deaths directly? Missiles from fighter jets, or the geographic position of the Hamas militants?
I also recognize some things more fundamental to the origin of this conflict; that is the illegal Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territory; the embargo of trade; the rationing of Palestinian water by Israel; the fact that 90% of Palestine's water supply is contaminated with sewage; the extremely dense population of Palestine compared to Israel and the very relevant fact that there were no militants in or around the school that got bombed on Sunday.
Israelis, by Palestinian standards, live cushy lives. They have a low population density, safety, clean water, security for the most part, military protection, lots of land in relation to their population size, a decent economy, various powerful world allies, 1st world education, opportunity, relative freedom of movement, food supplies, constant electricity, warmth, low mortality from conflict in contrast to Palestine etcetera etcetera.
Palestinians have a very high population density, high mortality from conflict, little freedom of movement, little clean water, intermittent electricity, fragile security, no real military protection, no genuine land ownership, a crumbled economy, allies who can do little to help their cause, shortages of food, unsafe schools and live in a very oppressed position.
So desperation comes from desperate situations and it's important that we, as onlookers, can view this conflict through not only the eyes of the Israelis, but also through the eyes of the Palestinian people.
What you're saying, about firing from civilian areas, could be said about any conflict such as this one. The forces with less means resort to more desperate measures. It's true that wherever there is conflict in a place with a very high population density, civilians are more at risk and to me, Israel could do far more to limit civilian casualties, considering their military might and the advanced equipment they have at their disposal.
It perhaps seems as though I am condemning Israel without pointing my fingers at Hamas, but that's not the case. I recognize Hamas as an organization willing to kill, I get that. What I'm saying is not meant to be a statement of my support for Hamas, but a statement of my willingness to look at both sides of the conflict through the eyes of civilians.
If you were a Palestinian civilian, living in conditions that Palestinians live in, how would you feel?
That's what I'm trying to get across.
I would feel greatly disadvantaged, a victim of injustice, knowing that Israel's occupation of Palestine territory since the 1960's is internationally illegal, knowing that Israel with all their military prowess are so willing to kill civilians. I would feel aggrieved at being trapped in what is effectively a walled-off section of land, a kill-box, facing daily struggle, food shortage, unclean water supplies, worrying constantly about whether my children will come home from school.
Of course, Israelis in the occupied territory also face these worries and I can also empathize with them. They are also scared, however as a matter of fact there are considerably less Israeli civilian deaths than Palestinian ones, by a factor of over 500. That's not me using a scoring system, it's me trying to get across the unfairness in condemning Palestinians as a whole, tarring them with the Hamas brush, supporting Israel without question when Palestinians are suffering so many more civilian casualties as a result of Israeli air strikes. I don't want to tally points and ask for even-stevens, I only want to get people to ask 'is my perspective fair?' 'Am I being unduly harsh towards Palestinian civilians?'
The message of many on this thread is 'Hamas are the responsible party', 'Hamas are to blame', 'Palestine deserve it', but can we honestly say that if Israel wanted to take out small targets they couldn't use more subtle means of doing so? Can we honestly say that Israel can rightly justify using this heavy ordinance and causing mass overkill, then escape all blame for doing so?
I don't want people to take sides at all, and that's not what I intend to do here. I'm not asking everyone to switch sides, I'm asking people to look at this from an empathetic standpoint, taking in mind the grievances and injustices on both sides of the fence. To stop laying blame at the feet of civilians, lumping Palestinian innocents in with Hamas, and to ask questions of Israel who are by far the more dominant entity in this conflict. Because in my eyes, power such as Israel's should be handled with great responsibility.
Certainly, Israel must protect its citizens, but there are far more peaceable means of doing so.
Israel have an extraordinarily low population density, almost five times less that of the UK. So, there is no reason why Israel cannot begin evacuating Israeli citizens out of Israeli occupied 'hot-zones' near the Gaza strip. There is no reason Israel can't counter-attack against Hamas rocket strikes by more precisely and proportionately targeting those rocket launchers, by operating special forces units to retrieve or neutralize specific Hamas targets.
What I am saying is that the extraordinary number of Palestinian civilian deaths is unnecessary, and it inflames this conflict, more and more every day.
What I genuinely would like to see is people on this thread trying to see this with a view to minimizing civilian casualties and with understanding that this conflict can't be solved by conflict itself. It's far from an ideal situation, certainly, but it is undoubtedly made more ugly when such relentless means seem to justify the ends for so many people.
I mean, Israel are occupying Palestinian land and forcing Palestinians to live like slum-dwellers and I don't think any of us would respond well to that. That's not justification for Hamas, they could have approached this politically, but it is an indictment of Israeli policy.
Maybe you should ask Hamas leaders why the billions of dollars of aid it receives was spent on building tunnels with underground complexes and purchasing weapons, with the rest going into their pockets.
If all the money given to Gaza was spent on what it was given for, then we would not see run down areas, we would see world leading hospitals, schools with every child given free laptops, the sewage system you speak of could be repaired and be the best in the world, new power plants could be built so they do not have to rely on Israel providing power, the list goes on.
HOwever it is better the Palestinian population is kept in rubble and poverty as its worth more in anti-Israeli propaganda and brings more hatred to evil Israel, its all the fault of Israel you know.
your last paragraph just shows how ignorant you are and little you know, or should that be how blinded you are by the anti-Israli propaganda.
WRONG. Gaza is not being occupied by Israel, there have been no Isralies living in Gaza for many years, Gaza is self ruled, its own government and police force and economy. As I stated in the above, Gaza could be wealthy with jobs for all engaged in world trade, with relaxed border crossing with Israel, hey Egypt may even deciede to open its border up with Gaza as well.
But no, the money that could have been used for humanitarian purposes and improving life in Gaza is instead spend on tunnels and weapons.
If all the money given to Gaza was spent on what it was given for, then we would not see run down areas, we would see world leading hospitals, schools with every child given free laptops, the sewage system you speak of could be repaired and be the best in the world, new power plants could be built so they do not have to rely on Israel providing power, the list goes on.
HOwever it is better the Palestinian population is kept in rubble and poverty as its worth more in anti-Israeli propaganda and brings more hatred to evil Israel, its all the fault of Israel you know.
your last paragraph just shows how ignorant you are and little you know, or should that be how blinded you are by the anti-Israli propaganda.
WRONG. Gaza is not being occupied by Israel, there have been no Isralies living in Gaza for many years, Gaza is self ruled, its own government and police force and economy. As I stated in the above, Gaza could be wealthy with jobs for all engaged in world trade, with relaxed border crossing with Israel, hey Egypt may even deciede to open its border up with Gaza as well.
But no, the money that could have been used for humanitarian purposes and improving life in Gaza is instead spend on tunnels and weapons.
Do you genuinely expect that giving money to a militant organization will result in clean water, schools, laptops and fancy handbags? Come on ...
And do you honestly think money makes up for living in a stretch of land walled off from the outside world, having been denied the freedom of movement, wherein there is not enough space for people to actually live comfortably? Do you think money makes up for the massive loss of land through illegal occupations of Palestinian territory since the 1960's? Palestine are the legal owners of much more than the Gaza strip, Agricola, and Israel's occupation of those lands is illegal.
Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And do you honestly think money makes up for living in a stretch of land walled off from the outside world, having been denied the freedom of movement, wherein there is not enough space for people to actually live comfortably? Do you think money makes up for the massive loss of land through illegal occupations of Palestinian territory since the 1960's? Palestine are the legal owners of much more than the Gaza strip, Agricola, and Israel's occupation of those lands is illegal.
Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ah we getting to the truth now, I see you admit that Hamas are stealing money and denying its population a more comforatable lifestyle. I see you are harbouring the same claims as all muslims and Arabs, that ALL OF ISRAEL is stolen land, that is what is meant by Stolen land, not just a few acres here and there.
The whole problem with Israel and what we see today all comes down to the fact that Israel was given the go-ahead in the 1940s, when the Arabs thought it would not happen as they cut thier nose of to spite thier face in rejeting a Palestinian state as they did not want Israel to have its own state.
THe war on day 1 was designed to kill all Jews and take the land back for Arabs, but of course Israel won, and won the other wars. Had there been peace over past 70 years, then Israel would still just be a few strips of land it had in 1948.
The whole problem with Israel and what we see today all comes down to the fact that Israel was given the go-ahead in the 1940s, when the Arabs thought it would not happen as they cut thier nose of to spite thier face in rejeting a Palestinian state as they did not want Israel to have its own state.
THe war on day 1 was designed to kill all Jews and take the land back for Arabs, but of course Israel won, and won the other wars. Had there been peace over past 70 years, then Israel would still just be a few strips of land it had in 1948.
There's this argument about the 'Palestinian Muslims' wanting an unfair share of land, so let's look at that mathematically. Just let me say, for a start, not all Palestinians are Muslims, in fact 93% are Muslim, 6% are Christian, and 1% are Jewish. Palestinians make up only 46% of those living in the Palestinian territories. The rest are Israelis, Jordanians and Egyptians illegally occupying the land.
Now we'll begin. The current Palestinian territories have a population of 4 million, while there are currently 1.6 million living in the Gaza strip, which is 365 sq km space, 1 million of which are UN registered refugees. This means the Gaza strip's population density is 2739 people per sq km.
Israel has a population of 7.908 million, being 27,000 sq km. This means Israel have a population density of 292 people per sq km. That means that Israel have a population density more than 9 times less than that of the Gaza strip.
So lets take this argument 'the Palestinian Muslims want an unfair share', and forget that all Palestinians aren't Muslims, and we'll do the maths.
Israel is the 'Jewish promised land', to you lot, so let's be fair and say Israel's Jews need the land they have. 75% of Israel's people are Jewish, that makes for just over 6 million Jews in Israel. So, if we say that 6 million Jews require the 27000 sq km of Israel, then each Jew requires a land mass of 0.0045 sq km.
The current 1.6 million Palestinian occupants of the Gaza strip alone (only a fraction of the entire Palestinian people) require 7,840 sq km under fair distribution here, if we give them the same as Jews. That is 21 times more than they currently get in the Gaza strip.
The land that the total number of Palestinians are supposed to have is about 43% of the whole of Israel and 'Palestine' combined. The combined land would be 6,220 sq km from the West Bank and Gaza strip, and the 27000 sq km of Israel, which totals to 33,220 sq km, give or take a few hundred.
This means Palestine rightfully own 14,284 sq km of land, and since there are around 10 million Palestinians in total through Israel, the Israeli occupied Palestine territories and the areas under illegal Jordanian or Egyptian control, that means each Palestinian, if given the land they legally own, would have 0.0013 sq km each, which is almost three and a half times less than the Israelis currently have at 0.0045 sq km each.
And if the Israelis were forced to give Palestine their land, and live in the territories legally allotted to them, which total the remaining 57% of all Israel and Palestine, that would mean that each one of the 7.9 million Israelis (6 million of whom are Jewish) would split 17,606 sq km between them, giving each Israeli 0.0022 sq km each, which would still be more than one and a half times what the Palestinians would get.
What the Palestinians ask in terms of land mass is not unfair and the truth of it is, Israel and Egypt, after the partition, occupied land that wasn't theirs.
Now we'll begin. The current Palestinian territories have a population of 4 million, while there are currently 1.6 million living in the Gaza strip, which is 365 sq km space, 1 million of which are UN registered refugees. This means the Gaza strip's population density is 2739 people per sq km.
Israel has a population of 7.908 million, being 27,000 sq km. This means Israel have a population density of 292 people per sq km. That means that Israel have a population density more than 9 times less than that of the Gaza strip.
So lets take this argument 'the Palestinian Muslims want an unfair share', and forget that all Palestinians aren't Muslims, and we'll do the maths.
Israel is the 'Jewish promised land', to you lot, so let's be fair and say Israel's Jews need the land they have. 75% of Israel's people are Jewish, that makes for just over 6 million Jews in Israel. So, if we say that 6 million Jews require the 27000 sq km of Israel, then each Jew requires a land mass of 0.0045 sq km.
The current 1.6 million Palestinian occupants of the Gaza strip alone (only a fraction of the entire Palestinian people) require 7,840 sq km under fair distribution here, if we give them the same as Jews. That is 21 times more than they currently get in the Gaza strip.
The land that the total number of Palestinians are supposed to have is about 43% of the whole of Israel and 'Palestine' combined. The combined land would be 6,220 sq km from the West Bank and Gaza strip, and the 27000 sq km of Israel, which totals to 33,220 sq km, give or take a few hundred.
This means Palestine rightfully own 14,284 sq km of land, and since there are around 10 million Palestinians in total through Israel, the Israeli occupied Palestine territories and the areas under illegal Jordanian or Egyptian control, that means each Palestinian, if given the land they legally own, would have 0.0013 sq km each, which is almost three and a half times less than the Israelis currently have at 0.0045 sq km each.
And if the Israelis were forced to give Palestine their land, and live in the territories legally allotted to them, which total the remaining 57% of all Israel and Palestine, that would mean that each one of the 7.9 million Israelis (6 million of whom are Jewish) would split 17,606 sq km between them, giving each Israeli 0.0022 sq km each, which would still be more than one and a half times what the Palestinians would get.
What the Palestinians ask in terms of land mass is not unfair and the truth of it is, Israel and Egypt, after the partition, occupied land that wasn't theirs.
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If this is true, then they are on Israel's doorstep. Keep your eyes on Turkey...
Breaking: ISIS Expands Territory from Syria-Iraq Into Lebanon – Captures Irsal City | The Gateway Pundit
Breaking: ISIS Expands Territory from Syria-Iraq Into Lebanon – Captures Irsal City | The Gateway Pundit
By international law. As for 'Israel', the ancient lands were far smaller than the partition given to them after the second world war. But that wasn't enough, so they took Palestinian land too. Ancient Israel was tiny. It didn't encompass Moab, Edom, Philistia or Amalec or Amon or Judah or Phoenicia. It went from Joppa to Mt Carmel on the Eastern coast,and the North of the dead sea to the Southern Borders of Bashan.
JERUSALEM WASNT EVEN PART OF ANCIENT ISRAEL! And under David and Solomon, Israel was even smaller!
The fact of the matter is, Israel currently occupy land that has never been Israeli land until after WW2. In fact, Israel came about after Jacob. Before that, there was no 'Israel'. I mean, goodness, Abraham was a Sumerian born in modern day Iraq!
JERUSALEM WASNT EVEN PART OF ANCIENT ISRAEL! And under David and Solomon, Israel was even smaller!
The fact of the matter is, Israel currently occupy land that has never been Israeli land until after WW2. In fact, Israel came about after Jacob. Before that, there was no 'Israel'. I mean, goodness, Abraham was a Sumerian born in modern day Iraq!