ONCE saved always saved!.

[Atwood]

If you "believe works are necessary for a faith to be true", then that means faith only can never save, right?

The only responsibility on man for salvation is reiterated over & over: Believe/have faith. A genuine faith produces works.

Eph. 2:1
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

[Dead Men do not do good works]
2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived

[Before you trust the Lord Jesus as your only & sufficient Savior, before you trust Him to save you from your sins & give you eternal life so that you will never perish, you are a son of disobedience and have no good works -- before new birth, no one has any good works; thus if good works were required for salvation, no one would be saved]

in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses,

[Dead Men do no good works]

made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus

[without being recreated anew, you will have no good works]

for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.



If any reading this has assigned Christ the role of mere "chance-giver," he is urged to trust the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior now.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

How can apart from me you can do nothing mean Christ does the work.. Are you saying Christ is helpless without us? That is what you are saying. The scripture say apart from Christ YOU /WE can do nothing... we are the ones doing...with him we can without him we cannot....

We are helpless without Christ.

I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me.

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, & peace . . .

 

[Atwood]

If one believes Jesus is the Son of the Most High God, this too is works.

On the contrary, scripture makes faith/believe the polar opposite of works. Faith is resting in the Savior, resting from one's works.

Heb. 3:9
Where your fathers tried me by proving me,
And saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was displeased with this generation,
And said, They do always err in their heart:
But they did not know my ways;
11 As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest.

Heb. 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Heb. 4:1
Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works; 5 and in this place again,
They shall not enter into my rest.

Heb. 4:6
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto, and they to whom the good tidings were before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience, 7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice,
Harden not your hearts.

Heb. 4:
9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

 

[SeaBass]

I was water baptized, too. Doesn't mean it saved me, my friend.

Jesus saved me. It was not in the ritual that symbolizes his death and resurrection.

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3).

Cornelius and His Household

In the example of Cornelius and his household (Acts 10), they listened to Peter preach to them about Jesus and that He was who all the prophets spoke of--His life, death and resurrection--and that whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43) The passage recounts how, before Peter could even baptize them, they all received the Holy Spirit after believing. (Acts 10:44) However, there are some who challenge that by saying, "Well, they were 'immediately' baptized." Would God have removed His Spirit from them if the baptism had been performed hours or days later? No. The Holy Spirit is an abiding presence. (John 14:16). The timing was important here for several reasons. The Mosaic Law had been a wall between Jews and Gentiles, but that wall had been broken down at the cross. The "Judaizers" contended that the Gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the Law in order to be accepted by God and come into the church. At the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15), it was brought out that none of these things were required of the Gentile converts; the Gentiles had heard the Gospel from Peter's mouth, they had believed and they were saved by grace through faith, not by the works of the Law, such as circumcision. (Acts. 15:7-9) We see that the giving of the Spirit was not dependent on any physical requirement of the Law, including the physical act of baptism (Note: This does not mean Christians can abide in sin that leads unto death, such as murder, hate, lying, etc.). Anyways, Cornelius and his household did, after all, receive God's Spirit prior to baptism. So this incident shows that it wasn't baptism that saved Cornelius and his household (or what caused them to receive or keep the Holy Spirit). Their baptism that followed only gave evidence that they had already been baptized by the Holy Spirit and were saved.

Samaritans Who Believed

Why did those Samaritans who believed and were baptized in an outward ceremony (Acts 8:12) not receive the Holy Spirit? When the apostles heard that they received the Word of God, they sent Peter and John unto them, to pray for them, "that they might receive the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:14-16). These Samaritans did not receive the Spirit when they were baptized because God wanted the Samaritan believers to be united with the original Jewish church in Jerusalem. It served the purpose of confirming Philip's teaching among the Samaritans and authenticated their work to the apostles in Jerusalem.

Source:
Do We Only Receive the Holy Spirit As a Result of Baptism?

Jesus saves, I think everyone here can agree on that, so the issue becomes who does Jesus save and why?

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation to all them that obey him.

You already said in your last post you "believe works are necessary for a faith to be true", so a faith that includes obedience is necessary to being saved.

In the contest Of Gal 3, the Christians at Galatia had left the NT gospel returning back to the OT law thinking that they could be justified by keeping the OT law of circumcision. For leaving the NT gospel and returning back to the OT law Paul had told them they had left Christ to follow a false gospel, twice Paul tells them they had quit "obeying the truth", and they had fallen from grace. SO the works of the OT law cannot save anyone is what Paul is saying in Gal 3:2-3


=======================================================

In the case of Cornelius, baptism with the HS had nothing to do with his personal salvation.

In the context, God did three things to prove to the Jews that the salvation of the gospel was to go to the Gentiles and was not meant for the Jews only:

1) sent an angel to Cornelius to tell him to send for Peter
2) gave Peter a vision that the Gentiles were not 'unclean'
3) baptized the Gentiles with the HS

The result of God doing these things: When they ()Jews) heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life, Acts 11:18 So God accomplished His purpose by doing these things and it had NOTHING to do with Cornelius personal salvation.

1) "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" Acts 10:47 As I already shown, it was God's intent that salvation go to the Gentiles and the Jews were not to stand in the way of that, so God did three things to prove salvation was to go to the Gentiles. That salvation came in the form of water baptism and any Jew that tried to forbid water baptism to the Gentiles were trying to stand in the way of Goo'ds will in salvation going to the Gentiles.

2) no verse says baptism with the HS saves/remits sins. Water baptism does remit sins, so Cornelius was lost until he was water baptized.

3) Cornelius was commanded water baptism. That command made water baptism essential to Cornelius' salvation if for no other reason. Disobedience to God's commands is dong unrighteousness.

4) In Peter's sermon, Peter said he that feareth God and WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS is accepted with God, verse 35. Working righteousness is obeying God's commands, Psa 119:172. So Cornelius would work righteousness when he obeyed the command to be baptized then he would be accepted with God and not anytime before.


5) Peter also said "whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"
Acts 2:38, Peter said--------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Since there is just one way to be saved/have sins remitted, then that can only mean a NT belief INCLUDES baptism. To try and disconnect baptism from belief is an attempt to create multiple ways to be saved.

Comparing Acts 2:41 with verse 44 those that "believed" in verse 44 were the ones baptized in verse 41, so belief is used sometimes in the NT as a synecdoche where it INCLUDES baptism.

6) In Acts 11:14 we are told how Conrlius would be saved, he would be saved by WORDS Peter would tell him, Peter nowhere told Cornelius he would be saved by belief only or be saved by baptism with the HS but SAVING WORDS Peter gave was the command Cornelius to be water baptized.

Also note in Acts 11 Peter wnet back to Jerusalem to face the Jews about going to the Gentiles. Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying.....And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning, Acts 11:4,15

So Peter told those Jews in Jerusalem the events BY ORDER as those events occurred and as Peter BEGAN to speak. So the Gentiles were baptized with the HS only as Peter began to speak so the Gentiles had not heard those saving words and believe and obey those words until AFTER the HS fell upon them.

7) later in Acts 15:11 Peter says Jews and Gentiles are saved 'in like manner'. The Jews in Acts 2 were saved by water baptism, Acts 2:38 as the Gentiles were saved in like manner by water baptism, Acts 10:47,48. So belief only was not the like manner way both were saved, baptism with the HS was not the like manner both Jew and Gentile were saved.


===================================================================


Simon and the Samaritans believed and were baptized per Christ's own words of the great commission, Mk 16:16 "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." So they were saved when they believed AND were baptized, else Christ lied. They had not received a miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit. Only the apostles could lay their hands upon another and pass on a miraculous gift (Acts 8:18) so apostles came down from Jerusalem to lay hands upon those saved Samaritans giving them miraculous powers. No one today receives a miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit as they did in the first century.

 

[SeaBass]

The only responsibility on man for salvation is reiterated over & over: Believe/have faith. A genuine faith produces works.

Eph. 2:1
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,

[Dead Men do not do good works]
2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived

[Before you trust the Lord Jesus as your only & sufficient Savior, before you trust Him to save you from your sins & give you eternal life so that you will never perish, you are a son of disobedience and have no good works -- before new birth, no one has any good works; thus if good works were required for salvation, no one would be saved]

in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses,

[Dead Men do no good works]

made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus

[without being recreated anew, you will have no good works]

for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.



If any reading this has assigned Christ the role of mere "chance-giver," he is urged to trust the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior now.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

If a "genuine faith produces works" then 'faith only' is not a genuine faith for it is void of works/dead.

 

[Atwood]

Jesus saves, I think everyone here can agree on that,

Actually no. There are some who regard Christ as a judge who examines works at the end of a man's life & awards Heaven or Lake of Fire based on works (like water baptism). They do not understand that man is wicked, does no good works, and must be saved, transformed by the miracle of the new birth to a new creation capable of good works.

There are some who do not believe that Jesus is the Savior; they deem him a mere chance-giver. To such the exhortation is to repent of the sin of relegating the Savior to a mere chance-giver, and to trust Him as the only & sufficient Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

If a "genuine faith produces works" then 'faith only' is not a genuine faith for it is void of works/dead.

You seem to confuse how a man who is dead in trespasses and sins, a man who does no good works, obtains salvation (a transformation of his being with eternal life promised) with the outcome of salvation.

Faith only over & over is the only responsibility put on man for salvation.
What happens after salvation is another matter.

Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
No other condition stated as over & over in scripture:

"

1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.
1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.
Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.
Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believes him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes hath eternal life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 John 5:10-12
He that believes on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believes not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.
Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto Jehovah;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.


Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believes on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he that believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith saith thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.


Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

 

[SeaBass]

Faith only over & over is the only responsibility put on man for salvation.

"Faith only" is dead and cannot save so no one today has been given the responsibility to have a dead faith. None of the verses you posted says "faith only" or 'believe only". So you must add/assume the word only into those verses thereby adding to God's word.

"by works a man is justified"

 

[Jason0047]

Jesus saves, I think everyone here can agree on that, so the issue becomes who does Jesus save and why?

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation to all them that obey him.

You already said in your last post you "believe works are necessary for a faith to be true", so a faith that includes obedience is necessary to being saved.

In the contest Of Gal 3, the Christians at Galatia had left the NT gospel returning back to the OT law thinking that they could be justified by keeping the OT law of circumcision. For leaving the NT gospel and returning back to the OT law Paul had told them they had left Christ to follow a false gospel, twice Paul tells them they had quit "obeying the truth", and they had fallen from grace. SO the works of the OT law cannot save anyone is what Paul is saying in Gal 3:2-3


=======================================================

In the case of Cornelius, baptism with the HS had nothing to do with his personal salvation.

In the context, God did three things to prove to the Jews that the salvation of the gospel was to go to the Gentiles and was not meant for the Jews only:

1) sent an angel to Cornelius to tell him to send for Peter
2) gave Peter a vision that the Gentiles were not 'unclean'
3) baptized the Gentiles with the HS

The result of God doing these things: When they ()Jews) heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life, Acts 11:18 So God accomplished His purpose by doing these things and it had NOTHING to do with Cornelius personal salvation.

1) "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" Acts 10:47 As I already shown, it was God's intent that salvation go to the Gentiles and the Jews were not to stand in the way of that, so God did three things to prove salvation was to go to the Gentiles. That salvation came in the form of water baptism and any Jew that tried to forbid water baptism to the Gentiles were trying to stand in the way of Goo'ds will in salvation going to the Gentiles.

2) no verse says baptism with the HS saves/remits sins. Water baptism does remit sins, so Cornelius was lost until he was water baptized.

3) Cornelius was commanded water baptism. That command made water baptism essential to Cornelius' salvation if for no other reason. Disobedience to God's commands is dong unrighteousness.

4) In Peter's sermon, Peter said he that feareth God and WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS is accepted with God, verse 35. Working righteousness is obeying God's commands, Psa 119:172. So Cornelius would work righteousness when he obeyed the command to be baptized then he would be accepted with God and not anytime before.


5) Peter also said "whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins"
Acts 2:38, Peter said--------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Since there is just one way to be saved/have sins remitted, then that can only mean a NT belief INCLUDES baptism. To try and disconnect baptism from belief is an attempt to create multiple ways to be saved.

Comparing Acts 2:41 with verse 44 those that "believed" in verse 44 were the ones baptized in verse 41, so belief is used sometimes in the NT as a synecdoche where it INCLUDES baptism.

6) In Acts 11:14 we are told how Conrlius would be saved, he would be saved by WORDS Peter would tell him, Peter nowhere told Cornelius he would be saved by belief only or be saved by baptism with the HS but SAVING WORDS Peter gave was the command Cornelius to be water baptized.

Also note in Acts 11 Peter wnet back to Jerusalem to face the Jews about going to the Gentiles. Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying.....And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning, Acts 11:4,15

So Peter told those Jews in Jerusalem the events BY ORDER as those events occurred and as Peter BEGAN to speak. So the Gentiles were baptized with the HS only as Peter began to speak so the Gentiles had not heard those saving words and believe and obey those words until AFTER the HS fell upon them.

7) later in Acts 15:11 Peter says Jews and Gentiles are saved 'in like manner'. The Jews in Acts 2 were saved by water baptism, Acts 2:38 as the Gentiles were saved in like manner by water baptism, Acts 10:47,48. So belief only was not the like manner way both were saved, baptism with the HS was not the like manner both Jew and Gentile were saved.


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Simon and the Samaritans believed and were baptized per Christ's own words of the great commission, Mk 16:16 "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." So they were saved when they believed AND were baptized, else Christ lied. They had not received a miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit. Only the apostles could lay their hands upon another and pass on a miraculous gift (Acts 8:18) so apostles came down from Jerusalem to lay hands upon those saved Samaritans giving them miraculous powers. No one today receives a miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit as they did in the first century.

No. I am sorry, my friend. If you believe works saves you, then you really don't believe Jesus saves you because you believe that you have to keep going out and doing more and more things to maintain your salvation. This is not Jesus saving you, but it is your works (or in what you do) that is saving you.

You are confusing obedience (From an internal changed heart who works out of love) versus working to save yourself externally. Obedience is done from an internal transformation. Works to save yourself are external and it is not trusting what Christ actually done for us. For if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Not some unrighteousness as you proclaim. Because you think that you still have to do something to be cleansed or saved. Yes, a true believer will do those things that are within the New Testament. In fact, there are strong warnings to the believer who does not give to the poor. But this is not salvation by works. For if a person truly surrendered to God in true repentance of their sins, and are open to yielding to God, then they are going to let God do the "good work" within their hearts and lives so as to love all other people naturally because God lives within them; For one of the major fruits of the Spirit is love. Also, Jesus said we can do nothing without Him, too. Meaning, it is not ultimately you doing the work (If you yielded your life to God).

In fact, I remember one of my close Christian friends coming up to me one day and he challenged me out of the blue.

He said, "Jason, are you saved?"

I said "Yes, of course! Why would you ask me such a thing?"

He said, "How do you know you are saved right now?"

My reply, "I know I am saved because of what Jesus Christ had done for me. By believing that He died for my sins, and rose the grave and that his blood cleanses me. I know I am saved because I have repented or confessed of my sin to Him."

~(I didn't name off all the things I did for God in the New Testament)~

His reply was, "Good, I was just making sure." (And He smiled).

In other words, if someone were to come up to you and ask you how you are saved right now, what would be your reply? On what basis are you saved at this very moment? Is it by making sure you did enough for God? Did you truly do enough for Him today to be saved? Or will you miss the mark? See how such a thing is not really allowing Jesus to save you? This does not mean we can just ignore the New Testament commands and live any way we want. No. No. A true believer will always follow God and obey Him. But they merely do so because they have a changed heart (From repentance). They want to please God in obedience because they are a new creature in Christ. They are not obeying Him so as to be saved. For they are already saved in Jesus Christ. Yes, there are warnings for us to endure in the faith. But this is about abiding in the Spirit of Christ whereby He will do the good works within you.

Again, read Titus 3:5. What does it say?

 

[Jason0047]

In fact, this reminds me of what a Catholic told me once. They said they are not saved right now. They will be saved. For the Catholic believes that they have to work, work, work in order to be saved.

Yet the Scriptures say we can have an assurance of salvation right now!

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13).

 

[notuptome]

"Faith only" is dead and cannot save so no one today has been given the responsibility to have a dead faith. None of the verses you posted says "faith only" or 'believe only". So you must add/assume the word only into those verses thereby adding to God's word.

"by works a man is justified"

Classic straw man argument. We are saved by grace. Faith is received through the hearing of Gods word. We are justified by grace. We are preserved by grace. We will be glorified together with Christ by grace. Faith is God through His word telling us what He is going to do. Grace is God doing exactly what He said He would do and doing it on an eternal basis. The faith of Christ is the grace we receive when we hear the word of God. It is all Christ and nothing of us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Actually no. There are some who regard Christ as a judge who examines works at the end of a man's life & awards Heaven or Lake of Fire based on works (like water baptism). They do not understand that man is wicked, does no good works, and must be saved, transformed by the miracle of the new birth to a new creation capable of good works.

There are some who do not believe that Jesus is the Savior; they deem him a mere chance-giver. To such the exhortation is to repent of the sin of relegating the Savior to a mere chance-giver, and to trust Him as the only & sufficient Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds

Rev 20:12,13 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

1 Pet 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad

Jn 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

 

[Jason0047]

In fact, this reminds me of what a Catholic told me once. They said they are not saved right now. They will be saved. For the Catholic believes that they have to work, work, work in order to be saved.

Yet the Scriptures say we can have an assurance of salvation right now!

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13).

Yes, we keep His commandments (otherwise we would be a liar), but keeping His commands is from having a changed heart. Keeping His commands is not in order to be saved. For it says if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For when we first come to the faith, we can have an assurance of salvation because of God's grace. For we can be saved by His mercy and grace for having sinned against Him. But there is no assurance in having eternal life if you are in fear that you might have not done something for God or that you may not be doing enough for Him.

 

[SeaBass]

Classic straw man argument. We are saved by grace. Faith is received through the hearing of Gods word. We are justified by grace. We are preserved by grace. We will be glorified together with Christ by grace. Faith is God through His word telling us what He is going to do. Grace is God doing exactly what He said He would do and doing it on an eternal basis. The faith of Christ is the grace we receive when we hear the word of God. It is all Christ and nothing of us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Rom 3:24----------grace>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24--------works>>>>>>>>>>justify
Rom 5:1-----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

So faith alone nor grace alone nor works alone can justify, it takes all combined to justify. Since there is just one way to be saved/justified, then God's grace requires faith/works. Faith is a work required by God's grace.


One is either foing rightoueness or unrightoeusness, there is no middle ground. So if one is doing nothing then he is doing unrighteousness.....whosoever doeth NOT righteousness is not of God, 1 Jn 3:10. So man has a role in his own salvation by doing God's righteousness.

 

[Jason0047]

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds

Rev 20:12,13 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

1 Pet 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad

Jn 5:28,29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Yes, there will be a Great White Throne Judgment for unbelievers where their works will be judged and then there will be the Judgement Seat of Christ where believers will be judged for what they did for Christ. But how will the thief on the cross answer the Lord at this Judgment?

 

[JaumeJ]

The thief believed Yeshua, Jesus, and it was imputed to him as righteousness which is the same as works. He did tell the other man on the cross to leave our Lord at peace for they were guilty, and he continued to say Jesus was innocent.

 

[Atwood]

Yes, there will be a Great White Throne Judgment for unbelievers where their works will be judged and then there will be the Judgement Seat of Christ where believers will be judged for what they did for Christ. But how will the thief on the cross answer the Lord at this Judgment?

Jason, I think a very common error (not referring to yourself) is a confusion of judgment with salvation. Judgment is of works; salvation is by grace.

Interestingly enough, I think that the thief on the cross did a good work before he died, He gave testimony in favor of the Lord Jesus including, "You shall enter into your Kingdom." Now aside from that good work, we might consider the greatness of his faith: There was the supposed King (with sign above him: Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews") nailed to a cross, yet the Thief believed He would yet be king.

How to answer at judgment, hypothetically of course:

The Preparation of the Dying Man for Appearance at the Pearly Gates:

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee, say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)

 

[Jason0047]

In fact, here is a passage in Titus 3 that refutes both Legalism and Antinomianism.

The verse that are highlighted in green refutes Antinomianism (OSAS - i.e. A License to Sin).
The verses that are highlighted in red refutes Legalism (A Salvation by works Program).

Titus 3:3-8
3"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."

Now, I want you to look at the two passages that I didn't highlight. What do they focus on? God's love and how it was shed upon us. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that Whosever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

 

[Jason0047]

The thief believed Yeshua, Jesus, and it was imputed to him as righteousness which is the same as works. He did tell the other man on the cross to leave our Lord at peace for they were guilty, and he continued to say Jesus was innocent.

Exactly, my friend.

 

[SeaBass]

No. I am sorry, my friend. If you believe works saves you, then you really don't believe Jesus saves you because you believe that you have to keep going out and doing more and more things to maintain your salvation. This is not Jesus saving you, but it is your works (or in what you do) that is saving you.

By works a man is justifed, James 2

He that worketh rightoeusness is accepted with God, Acts 10:35

He that doeth righteousnes is born of God, 1 Jn 2:29

whosoever doeth NOT righteousness is NOT of God, 1 Jn 3:10

So salvation is not possible by doing nothing.

Jesus saves..He saves those that obey, Heb 5:9 and there is vengeance upon those that obey not, 2 Thess 1:8

Mt 7:21 he that doeth the will of the Father is the one that enters the kingdom.

Rom 6:16 Paul says you serve wither one of two masters, you serve either;

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteousness

I serve #2. Your theology has ruled out serving #2 for yourself.

So are you doing righteousness or doing unrighteousness?

One is either foing rightoueness or unrightoeusness, there is no middle ground. So if one is doing nothing then he is doing unrighteousness

You are confusing obedience (From an internal changed heart who works out of love) versus working to save yourself externally. Obedience is done from an internal transformation. Works to save yourself are external and it is not trusting what Christ actually done for us. For if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Not some unrighteousness as you proclaim. Because you think that you still have to do something to be cleansed or saved. Yes, a true believer will do those things that are within the New Testament. In fact, there are strong warnings to the believer who does not give to the poor. But this is not salvation by works. For if a person truly surrendered to God in true repentance of their sins, and are open to yielding to God, then they are going to let God do the "good work" within their hearts and lives so as to love all other people naturally because God lives within them; For one of the major fruits of the Spirit is love. Also, Jesus said we can do nothing without Him, too. Meaning, it is not ultimately you doing the work (If you yielded your life to God).

In fact, I remember one of my close Christian friends coming up to me one day and he challenged me out of the blue.

He said, "Jason, are you saved?"

I said "Yes, of course! Why would you ask me such a thing?"

He said, "How do you know you are saved right now?"

My reply, "I know I am saved because of what Jesus Christ had done for me. By believing that He died for my sins, and rose the grave and that his blood cleanses me. I know I am saved because I have repented or confessed of my sin to Him."

~(I didn't name off all the things I did for God in the New Testament)~

His reply was, "Good, I was just making sure." (And He smiled).

In other words, if someone were to come up to you and ask you how you are saved right now, what would be your reply? On what basis are you saved at this very moment? Is it by making sure you did enough for God? Did you truly do enough for Him today to be saved? Or will you miss the mark? See how such a thing is not really allowing Jesus to save you? This does not mean we can just ignore the New Testament commands and live any way we want. No. No. A true believer will always follow God and obey Him. But they merely do so because they have a changed heart (From repentance). They want to please God in obedience because they are a new creature in Christ. They are not obeying Him so as to be saved. For they are already saved in Jesus Christ. Yes, there are warnings for us to endure in the faith. But this is about abiding in the Spirit of Christ whereby He will do the good works within you.

Again, read Titus 3:5. What does it say?

1 Jn 2:25 "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life"

Eternal life is a promise. A promise is not something yet realized.

Mk 10:30 "But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

Eternal life is not now but in the world to come. This mortal, corruptible body cannot possess such a thing as eternal life in this world but a change must take place, this mortal must put on immortality and become incorruptible to have eternal life.



So the Christian who keeps on walking in the light, 1 Jn 1:7 those that remain faithful unto death, Rev 2:10 have the assurance of seeing the promise of eternal life realized. Those that quit walking in the light, quit being faith/quit believing will not see this promised realized for themselves.

I cannot tell anyone I was saved by doing nothing and if I keep on doing nothing I will receive that promise of eternal life.


Tts 3:5 says works of merit cannot save but being water baptized/washing of regeneration does save.