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Have you not read that God makes the rain to fall on the good and the wicked alike? Matthew 5:45 You grossly undervalue the mercy and kindness of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
How you read that into what I posted is of some concern. What part of saved by grace do you not understand? If you are in Romans you will see that those who are saved are no longer under the condemnation of sin. That does not mean that they do not sin only that they are not condemned by God because of it. Condemned by men but not by God.
You cannot relate national election to personal salvation. You have misapplied the passage in Rom 11:21-22
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A
Alligator
Guest
that sounded pretty good until the very end. He said faith alone is how we are saved but ignored James 2:24. He also said we are saved by by faith alone but a saving faith is never alone. That is a contradictory statement in my opinion.
james 2:24 says no such thing!
And that is not a self-contradictory statement at all.
Salvation, as reiterated over & over in scripture, has but one human responsibility towards attainment: faith/ believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved. Faith alone. After a person has been transformed, then good works must follow that faith.
The wretched unbeliever has no good works; if good works were the way to be saved, no one would ever be saved. Salvation is the Savior meeting our problem of being sinners who have no good works.
eph 2 spells it out:
Eph. 2:1
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
I believe we are saved by faith alone, which is counted to us as righteousness, and righteousness is works. Having faith also requires one's own efforts to keep that faith alive and well. Prayer, learning the Word by the Holy Spirit, waiting on the Lord, helping others and more ensue from having faith.
I might have hoped that by now you would know better. We are saved by grace. All of our efforts are as filthy rags before the Lord God. Only Christ had faith that was sufficient before the Father.
We hear of salvation through Gods word and we respond under the convicting power of Gods Holy Spirit. It is God that seeks us not us seeking God. Salvation is what God has done not what we must do.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A
Alligator
Guest
yes it does, and yes it is. You you ignored what James 2:24 says just like he did. I have already answered these other arguments you make over and over and I'm not going to do it again.
You failed to understand what they were trying to say. There is no contradiction in what they said. It's the same thing that Paul and James were trying to tell us. For Paul and James were not against each other. Paul is saying that you are saved by grace thru faith and it is a gift from God and it is not of works unless any man should boast. While we are not saved by works, James tells us what a true saving faith will naturally be followed by works.
In other words, Paul is saying what is going on internally, and James is telling us what is happening externally. Salvation happens of the Lord thru repentance and acceptance of Him (i.e. the gift, because you do not have to work for gifts). Then works will follow because that gift is God living in you whereby He does the good work (When you surrender to His will). For Jesus said you can do nothing without Him.
Again, the best analogy that I can give is that of a train. You choose to get on a train to go from Point A to Point B really fast. Faster than what you could normally travel on your own power. For it is not you that is going really fast (on your own power) but it is the train (i.e. it is not the works that save you in and of themselves). For it is your choice to simply be on that train (i.e. your choice to yield to God so He can do the good work within you) so that you can get home (i.e. so that you are home (saved) in Christ).
The Legalist thinks they can take credit for the speed at which the train travels because they think of everything in terms of their own human effort. The Antinomian simply ignores the reality of the train itself and the higher speeds that it can travel and chock it up to an act of God that is actually making them move from Point A to Point B really fast. Both are wrong extremes.
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A
Alligator
Guest
yes it does and yes it is. You ignored james 2 24 Just like he did. I have already answered these questions multiple times and I'm not going to do it again.
What is your proof of that one?
You are at odds with the Word of God which tells us that God is gracious, good to sinners, good to HIs enemies:
God, is rich in mercy and has loved the sinners dead in sin & had absolutely no good works, and were unrighteous.
Eph. 2:1
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Thus you had best repent of your contradictions to God's Word, and believe His promises.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.
Over & over again salvation is offered on one condition only, that of belief/faith. A very few times the word "obey" is used. To obey the gospel is to obey this command:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved." That is the only command to obey for salvation.
His vengeance was satisfied at the cross where the Lord Jesus paid that vengeance. Only a fool rejects his payment & insists on paying it himself in the Lake of Fire.
The only condition "that we might be" is faith/belief/trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior. Read the verse: if you are ever to be righteous, it will be because you are placed in Christ. Man is made righteous by God (passive voice), man does not make himself righteous by obedience to commands.
You are making things up that are not in the text. Now since you don't obey, what will happen to you? Since all your righteousnesses are as filthy rags, how do you escape the Lake of Fire?
You make things up. Scripture never says that someone in Christ can become no longer in Him. In fact 2 John says that once you get in the Body of Christ you stay there.
What is more unfaithful that to post lies about salvation on the internet? What is more unfaithful that to deny that man must believe to be saved without any works?
To any who deny that the Lord Jesus is Savior, and would relegate Him to the role of "chance-giver," now is the day of salvation: Repent of this sin and trust the Lord Jesus as your only & sufficient Savior.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.
A
Alligator
Guest
I Understand exactly what he was trying to say. You said a faith that saves is accompanied by works. So then, that means works are involved in our salvation.
The quoted scripture is saying Abraham's faith, believing God, was imputed to him as righteousness.
In the following line, still making reference to Abraham's faith, it says that a man is not justified by works alone, the antecedant being Abraham's righteousness equating it to works. Now his works were the product of his faith. His works were imputed to him also because of his righteousness which is in turn works.
There is no conflict in believing a person will do works because of faith, for wprls are imputed, following the reasoning in James writing back to the action taken by Abraham in believing God.
Belief leads to faith which is imputed as righteousness, and righteousness is works. They are inseparable. Faith without works is no faith at all.
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
In the following line, still making reference to Abraham's faith, it says that a man is not justified by works alone, the antecedant being Abraham's righteousness equating it to works. Now his works were the product of his faith. His works were imputed to him also because of his righteousness which is in turn works.
There is no conflict in believing a person will do works because of faith, for wprls are imputed, following the reasoning in James writing back to the action taken by Abraham in believing God.
Belief leads to faith which is imputed as righteousness, and righteousness is works. They are inseparable. Faith without works is no faith at all.
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
No, works follow salvation. They are not done for salvation. That would be like claiming it is you who is moving really fast on your own power just because you are on a high speed train. In this analogy: God is the train who moves fast. You merely choose to be on that train or not. The speed at which the train travels is a believer's works. Your choice to be on that train is merely choosing to be with God or not. It's not your human effort that is saving you. It is God that is saving you. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Just as it is the train is the author and finisher of your travel from Point A to Point B really fast.
James refers to Abe's offering of Isaac that by such a work Abe was declared righteous, justified.
But James also says that Abe believed God and it was reckoned to Abe for righteousness. What the reader may fail to notice is that the offering of Isaac happened a long time after Abe initially believed in God and received the declaration of righteous (justification).
When a man is unsaved and has no good works, but trusts Christ as Savior, he is declared righteous by God solely on the basis of faith at the point of salvation.
After a man is saved, then his good works declare that he is righteous (justified). His good works after salvation are not the ground of his salvation, which he received upon first belief. When Abe offered up Isaac, Abe was already saved (long ago) and had been justified on the only basis of faith. Now many years later, indeed his works declare him righteous (justified) -- but the works do not save.
First, if your brother understands something, and it does not agree with your understanding, it is not appropriate to tell him to repent of anything, however some dialogue in the love of Jesus Christ is helpful.
I do not believe I pasted the quote correctly earlier. I am going to highlight the word, works, in 24, and also its antecedant in 23, that being righteousness which is imputed as works.
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I do not believe I pasted the quote correctly earlier. I am going to highlight the word, works, in 24, and also its antecedant in 23, that being righteousness which is imputed as works.
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
"Involved" is too general a term. Works do not effect salvation. Salvation effects works. Faith is required for salvation; works to effect salvation are forbidden as self-righteousness. Faith brings salvation which brings good works after salvation.
Good works are impossible as a condition of salvation, for wicked man has no good works. He has to be recreated in salvation before good works will ever come.
Eph. 2:1
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
To anyone trusting his good works (including water baptism), repent today of that self-righteous sin. Start trusting the Lord Jesus as only & sufficient Savior. There is not room in the universe for 2 SAviors (Christ & yourself). He will not tolerate that.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved.
A
Alligator
Guest
here is my point. You believe in faith only, right? But we all know that faith without works is dead and is an un saving faith. Right? So then how can you say faith alone is what saves when you admit that work must follow faith.. If works must follow faith, then to be a saving faith, that means works are involved in our salvation. That is not a works-based salvation but this means works are involved.
No. I have already said many times already that I believe James when he says faith without works is dead. I do not believe Christians can be anarchists or rebels against God. This would be Antinomianism, which I am strongly against.
The key to understanding is that God does the work witin you after He saves you.
Both the Antinomian and the Legalist ignore this truth and seek to glorify themselves instead of God.
In other words, the Antinomian (OSAS proponent) worships himself (while also trying to serve God) because they are still a slave or servant to their own sin. The Legalist worships himself in the fact that they are saved on their own human effort (or self righteousness) instead of what Jesus did for us on the cross. The legalist is worshiping their own sense of righteousness as a way to God and they will be puffed up like the Pharisee in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Thinking they are better than everyone else because they are externally doing all the right things to be saved instead of trusting in Jesus for salvation). The Legalist is placing their faith in their own deeds and worshiping their own human effort for salvation instead of receiving the free gift (Who is God) whereby He does the good work within them. So salvation is about a relationship. It's not about you trying to force your way into the Kingdom by your own human effort apart from God. Nor is salvation about God forcing a person into the Kingdom because they made a one time decision of faith, either.
The key to understanding is that God does the work witin you after He saves you.
Both the Antinomian and the Legalist ignore this truth and seek to glorify themselves instead of God.
In other words, the Antinomian (OSAS proponent) worships himself (while also trying to serve God) because they are still a slave or servant to their own sin. The Legalist worships himself in the fact that they are saved on their own human effort (or self righteousness) instead of what Jesus did for us on the cross. The legalist is worshiping their own sense of righteousness as a way to God and they will be puffed up like the Pharisee in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Thinking they are better than everyone else because they are externally doing all the right things to be saved instead of trusting in Jesus for salvation). The Legalist is placing their faith in their own deeds and worshiping their own human effort for salvation instead of receiving the free gift (Who is God) whereby He does the good work within them. So salvation is about a relationship. It's not about you trying to force your way into the Kingdom by your own human effort apart from God. Nor is salvation about God forcing a person into the Kingdom because they made a one time decision of faith, either.
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