Israel still god's people?

Bookends · Aug 12, 2014

Matthew 21

21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

Who or what is "this mountain" represent?

Bookends · Aug 12, 2014

Linda70 said:

1 Peter 2

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by Godand precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[b]

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]

8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Those in Christ are of a nation, it's God's holy Kingdom; only the blind can not enter.

VCO · Aug 12, 2014

Linda70 said:

I AGREE, "The Old Testament reference (Psalms 118:22) which Jesus quoted in Matthew 21:42 upholds the truth that Israel's rulers are replaced, not Israel herself."

But do not rule out the Church as being part of the Bride of Christ, and here is why:

John 10:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.

And here is Jesus speaking to Jewish Believers in HIM:

John 10:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold{referring to The Church}; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.

The ONE FLOCK is the Bride of Christ, the sum total of all True Believers of all time.

As I stated before:

Actually the Old Testament Saints and the New Testament Saints have the exact same Faith, the Faith of Abraham:

New Testament Saints Believed GOD recieving the Messiah, Jesus Christ as LORD.

Old Testament Saints Believed GOD that Messiah the LORD, would come, thus they too received Messiah as LORD.

VCO · Aug 12, 2014

Let me show you something that most people MISS.

Ephesians 5:23-25 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
And some New Testament Believers look at that and erroneously want to believe Christ chose a new Bride because of the unfaithfulness of the Old Testament Bride, in that they rejected Him when He came unto His own. WRONG!

The word in the original Greek, is NOT Church, it is Assembly or Congregation.

Ephesians 5:23-25 (YLT)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] because the husband is head of the wife, as also the Christ is head of the assembly, and he is saviour of the body,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] but even as the assembly is subject to Christ, so also are the wives to their own husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it,
"Greek NASB Number: 1577

Greek Word: [FONT=&quot]ἐκκλησία[/FONT]

Transliterated Word: [FONT=Gentium !important]ekklêsia[/FONT]
Root: from 1537 and 2564;

Definition: an assembly, a (religious) congregation:--

New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible."

Ephesians 5:23-25 (World English Bible: Messianic Version)
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Messiah also is the head of the assembly, being himself the savior of the body.
24 But as the assembly is subject to Messiah, so let the wives also be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Messiah also loved the assembly, and gave himself up for it;

Joshua 22:16 (NIV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "The whole assembly of the LORD says: 'How could you break faith with the God of Israel like this? How could you turn away from the LORD and build yourselves an altar in rebellion against him now?

1 Chronicles 29:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Therefore David blessed the LORD before all the assembly; and David said: "Blessed are You, LORD God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever.

Joshua 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "Thus says the whole congregation of the LORD: 'What treachery is this that you have committed against the God of Israel, to turn away this day from following the LORD, in that you have built for yourselves an altar, that you might rebel this day against the LORD?

Church may be a NEW TESTAMENT term only but ASSEMBLY and Congregation ARE NOT.

VCO · Aug 12, 2014

Bookends said:

The Mountain of our Sin, that stands between us and GOD.

crossnote · Aug 12, 2014

Bookends said:

1 Peter 2

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by Godand precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[b]

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]

8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Those in Christ are of a nation, it's God's holy Kingdom; only the blind can not enter.

Peter is addressing his epistle to the Diaspora that believe...

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
(1Pe 1:1)

Ukorin · Aug 13, 2014

crossnote said:

To Believers scattered by persecution.
This was a general epistle, to all scattered and persecuted Believers, not to natural Jews only.

The gathering is in the Rapture, not pre-rapture. It is of Believers, not all natural born Jews.
The dividing line was broken, and will never be repaired.

The Exiles are us. We are not in our homeland yet, the Promised Land of the Kingdom.
We are Exiles here, in a world to which we no longer belong.

Why all this focus on flesh and blood, and borders, and cities, and nations,
when we should be focused on spiritual things.

I'm not saying that God will not bring all the living descendents of the 12 Tribes back to Israel, and save them all,
but that He doesn't need to, because the fulfillment of the gathering of all of Israel is fulfilled in the Resurrection at Christ's Return. No other fulfillment is needed. "All of Israel will be saved" is talking about all the elect, Jew and Gentile. To think that is talking about the physical nation is not even possible in the context.

Bookends · Aug 13, 2014

VCO said:

Assuming you interpret the bible with the bible, please show me where in the bible that "mountain(s)" is used to represent our sin.

Bookends · Aug 13, 2014

You only need to watch the first 20 minutes or so to get the gist of the debate;

[video=youtube;Xd1Lve39Bvg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd1Lve39Bvg[/video]

crossnote · Aug 13, 2014

Ukorin said:

I take it in context of Peter's target audience...

Galatians 2:7-9 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

JimmieD · Aug 13, 2014

Bookends said:

Since Jesus was camped out on the Mt of Olives when he said this, he's either refering to the Mt of Olives or he's refering to the Temple Mount which you could almost hit with a baseball from the Mt of Olives. Those are the two mountains closest to where he was standing.

Ukorin · Aug 13, 2014

crossnote said:

Let's look at the content, and we will see how general this epistle is.

1:14 describes the readers as once ignorant.
2:10 describes the readers as once not God's People
4:3-4 describes the readers as coming out of paganism.

The language in the epistle show the same teachings as Paul, and uses the same language to describe God's People.
The dividing line is only between saved and unsaved.

In Christ, we are all made God's People, and are all in Dispersion. We will be gathered from Dispersion at the Coming of Christ, when the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible, and the living in Christ are gathered and made new in the twinkling of an eye.

Peter was rebuked for holding to dividing lines. Did he continue in division of God's People when writing this letter, some 20 years after being rebuked publicly by Paul?
No. This letter shows the opposite, that Peter grew and understood that all in Christ are the Body,
and there is no election outside of the Body.
The shadow of flesh and blood has been done away with by the Flesh and Blood of Christ.

God's People are Believers only, regardless of race or gender.

If this letter was written to the Jews, then how do you explain 2:10 into your view that even unsaved Israel are still God's People, when it says "you were once not a people, but you are now God's People."

mpaper345 · Aug 13, 2014

Israel is still God's people and Israel is only God's people,although Gentiles can be a part of their kingdom,and Israel is the Church that went from physical to spiritual.

Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews and He only was to go to the Jews with the truth.

God said I am the LORD,I change not,therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God said that He will make a full end of all Gentile nations,but He will not make a full end of Israel,although they will be punished in part,which Isarel will be the only nation in operation that will entail the world in the millennial reign of Christ.

God said that when Israel has borne their shame for rejecting the truth then God will restore them back to their land from the nations,and will leave no more of them scattered among the nations.

God said He has not cast off Israel which He knew before.

The Bible says that the gifts and calling of God are without repentence,which means when God calls someone He will not depart from it,which God called Israel and said that He will always favor them,and if they rebel and follow false gods and falsehood if they turn from their evil ways back to Him,even in the latter days,that He will hear from heaven and He will be their God again.

The Bible says that the kingdom is the Jews and the Gentiles were brought in to that kingdom and said for the Gentiles to not get arrogant towards the Jews for if God can save a Gentile who is an unnatural branch how much more can He save a Jew who is a natural branch.

God said in the Old Testament that as long as the ordinances in heaven are still in operation,the moon,the sun,the stars,then His covenant with Israel still stands,and I see the moon,the sun,and the stars,are still in operation,so God's covenant is still in operation with them.

[SUP]31[/SUP] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
[SUP]32[/SUP] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
[SUP]33[/SUP] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
[SUP]34[/SUP] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
[SUP]35[/SUP] Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
[SUP]36[/SUP] If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
[SUP]37[/SUP] Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD(Jeremiah 31:31-37).

God said He would make a new covenant with Israel which is the New Testament and will not cast away His people for the ordinances of heaven are still in effect and Israel cannot measure the heaven above and cannot search out the foundations of the earth beneath,which God is pointing out that He will not cast away Israel.

Israel is still God's people and Israel is the Church which God allowed the Gentiles to be a part of it,and when a Gentile becomes saved He is a Jew inward,and God says that in that kingdom there is no difference between a Jew and a Gentile.

crossnote · Aug 13, 2014

Bookends said:

You'll only need two minutes to get a glimpse of Stephen Sizer...a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Exposing False Teachers & Prophets | Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Fishbait · Aug 13, 2014

Bookends said:

At approximately 15:32 into his rebuttal the man on the right said, "God owns the land".

True: The Land of Israel belongs to God. "The Land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me" (Leviticus 25:23)

Since the Land of Israel belongs to God, He can give it to whomever He wishes.

And God 'wished' it to who?: The Land of Israel was given by God to the descendants of Abraham. The Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land" (Genesis 12:7). The living God further said to Abraham: I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God (Genesis 17:7-8).

Bookends · Aug 13, 2014

crossnote said:

Well I certainly don't agree with ordaining homosexual ministers. And if he really did, then I'd agree with you. However, one little negative thing said against Natural Israel today and you can be labeled an anti-zionist. I also most certain you think I am anti-Israel. I'm not anti - "anyone", but pro peace, and that's peace between man and God whether your a Jew or non-Jew.

Bookends · Aug 13, 2014

Fishbait said:

At approximately 15:32 into his rebuttal the man on the right said, "God owns the land".

True: The Land of Israel belongs to God. "The Land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me" (Leviticus 25:23)

Since the Land of Israel belongs to God, He can give it to whomever He wishes.

And God 'wished' it to who?: The Land of Israel was given by God to the descendants of Abraham. The Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land" (Genesis 12:7). The living God further said to Abraham: I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God (Genesis 17:7-8).

Really, I thought the whole Earth is His, not just one little piece of it. The universe is His for that matter.

crossnote · Aug 13, 2014

Bookends said:

Well I certainly don't agree with ordaining homosexual ministers. And if he really did, then I'd agree with you. However, one little negative thing said against Natural Israel today and you can be labeled an anti-zionist. I also most certain you think I am anti-Israel. I'm not anti - "anyone", but pro peace, and that's peace between man and God whether your a Jew or non-Jew.

Where did you come up with the 'anti' thing?

Kerry · Aug 13, 2014

Is there an Israel? Then, yes they are His people, for close to to two thousand years there was no Israel. But, now there is one just as the bible says. Explain that atheist?

Bookends · Aug 13, 2014

crossnote said:

That web site you linked up there, Exposing False Teachers & Prophets | Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves., calls him that. And many dispensationalist call others who don't agree with them regarding Natural Israel and eschatology is often called "anti-zionist". Funny, that web site bashes him for "ordaining homosexual ministers" and then goes right into their spew about him being anti-Israel. BTW, I haven't found anything concrete or quote by Sizer which supports this articles claim. Perhaps you can.

Israel still god's people?

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