Israel still god's people?

[Ukorin]

And yes, I already know all the main views and reasons, and even more on your view than the others even.
I have been instructed in Dispensational Premillenialism from several of it's leading proponents.
I hold to a "mid-trib pre-wrath" view, which fits with the literal, historical, grammatical interpretation.

It would be good for you to really study some of the other views, from the words of those who teach it(rather than just hear it as a straw man from your favorite preacher).
It is very eye opening, and will get you to challenge some of those false presumptions about imminence being about the Rapture.

Imminence always refers to the unsaved and their judgement. Judgement will come without warning to the unbelievers, but will be very obvious to the Believer, because we are awake to it.
The unbelievers will not see it coming, because they are asleep spiritually. They will be proclaiming peace just as the turmoil is coming. We will be proclaiming Christ, and even more vigorously through the persecution.

Notice that even in the parable, the return of the Bridegroom is made known at His Coming to both the believers(ready) and unbelievers(not ready). Notice that there is even a conversation between the two groups before they leave the house.

Notice that there is a certain point where salvation is no longer offered(at His arrival). This is the time of Wrath, when it is too late to be saved.

 

[Linda70]

Testing is not wrath.
We will be tested in the Tribulation.
We will not face the Wrath.

Tribulation is not Wrath.

The entire 7 year tribulation period is the wrath of God (the period of time called "the Day of the Lord"). It begins with the opening of the 7 judgment "seals" in Revelation 6.

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
Revelation 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Revelation 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Revelation 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus is the One Who opens those "seal" judgments.

 

[VCO]

Testing is not wrath.
We will be tested in the Tribulation.
We will not face the Wrath.

Tribulation is not Wrath.

THE TESTING & TRIBULATION IS THE POURING OUT OF GOD's WRATH.

Revelation 3:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to endure, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is going to come over the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

Revelation 6:12-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?”

Rev. 3:10
3:10 Because the Philadelphians had maintained God's truth by living it before men, the Lord would keep them from the hour of trial which is to come upon all who dwell on the earth. This is a promise of exemption from the Tribulation Period described in chapters 6-19. Note that they will be kept from the hour of trial, that is, from the whole time period. Also they will be kept out of that period (Gk., ek), not through it.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

Rev. 3:10
3:10. The church in Philadelphia received no rebuke from Christ. Instead they were commended and given a promise because they had been willing to endure patiently. The promise was, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. This is an explicit promise that the Philadelphia church will not endure the hour of trial which is unfolded, beginning in Revelation 6. Christ was saying that the Philadelphia church would not enter the future time of trouble; He could not have stated it more explicitly. If Christ had meant to say that they would be preserved through a time of trouble, or would be taken out from within the Tribulation, a different verb and a different preposition would have been required.


Though scholars have attempted to avoid this conclusion in order to affirm posttribulationism, the combination of the verb "keep" (tērein) with the preposition "from" (ek) is in sharp contrast to the meaning of keeping the church "through" (dia), a preposition which is not used here. The expression "the hour of trial" (a time period) makes it clear that they would be kept out of that period. It is difficult to see how Christ could have made this promise to this local church if it were God's intention for the entire church to go through the Tribulation that will come on the entire world. Even though the church at Philadelphia would go to glory via death long before the time of trouble would come, if the church here is taken to be typical of the body of Christ standing true to the faith, the promise seems to go beyond the Philadelphia church to all those who are believers in Christ (cf. Walvoord, Revelation, pp. 86-8).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

Rev. 3:10
3:10 keep you from the hour of trial. Christ’s description—an event still future that for a short time severely tests the whole world—must refer to the time of tribulation, the seven-year period before Christ’s earthly kingdom is consummated, featuring the unleashing of divine wrath in judgments expressed as seals, trumpets, and bowls. This period is described in detail throughout chapters. 6-19. The latter half is called “the Great Tribulation” (7:14; Matt. 24:21) and is identified as to time in 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14; 13:5. The verb “to keep” is followed by a preposition whose normal meaning is “from” or “out of”—this phrase, “keep... from” supports the pretribulational Rapture of the church (see notes on John 14:1-3; 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:13-17). This period is the same as Daniel’s seventieth week (see notes on Dan. 9:24-27) and “the time of Jacob’s trouble” (see notes on Jer. 30:7).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

Rev. 3:10 "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation." He says that He will keep them not only from that awful holocaust that is coming on this earth, that period of judgment, but also from the hour of temptation. Therefore, this is to my judgment a complete deliverance. When he says, "keep thee from the hour," I have translated it, "keep thee out of the hour of trial." By any stretch of the imagination, you could not say that this church is going through the Great Tribulation period. I believe that the period of the Philadelphian church continues right on through to the rapture of the church. This is the church which will go out at the time of the Rapture.

The church of Laodicea, as we shall see, is an organization which will continue on in the world, although the Lord gives a marvelous invitation to it, and many even in that Laodicean church will turn to Christ and be taken out at the time of the Rapture. But there is a church that goes through the Great Tribulation period, and that is the apostate church, the church of Laodicea.


What we have here, therefore, is the coming of Christ to take His own out of the world and His promise to the church of Philadelphia that it will not go through that particular period that is coming on the earth.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

 

[VCO]

And yes, I already know all the main views and reasons, and even more on your view than the others even.
I have been instructed in Dispensational Premillenialism from several of it's leading proponents.
I hold to a "mid-trib pre-wrath" view, which fits with the literal, historical, grammatical interpretation.

It would be good for you to really study some of the other views, from the words of those who teach it(rather than just hear it as a straw man from your favorite preacher).
It is very eye opening, and will get you to challenge some of those false presumptions about imminence being about the Rapture.

Imminence always refers to the unsaved and their judgement. Judgement will come without warning to the unbelievers, but will be very obvious to the Believer, because we are awake to it.
The unbelievers will not see it coming, because they are asleep spiritually. They will be proclaiming peace just as the turmoil is coming. We will be proclaiming Christ, and even more vigorously through the persecution.

Notice that even in the parable, the return of the Bridegroom is made known at His Coming to both the believers(ready) and unbelievers(not ready). Notice that there is even a conversation between the two groups before they leave the house.

Notice that there is a certain point where salvation is no longer offered(at His arrival). This is the time of Wrath, when it is too late to be saved.

The time when we leave is somewhere between the last verse of Rev. Chapter 3 and the first verse of Chapter 4. No man knows the day or the hour. I believe the 24 elders in Rev. 4:4 are Elders of the Church. Perhaps one elder to represent each generation. If you figure each generation has pretty much died out every 85 years, we are nearing the end of the 24 generation now.

 

[VCO]

And yes, I already know all the main views and reasons, and even more on your view than the others even.
I have been instructed in Dispensational Premillenialism from several of it's leading proponents.
I hold to a "mid-trib pre-wrath" view, which fits with the literal, historical, grammatical interpretation.

It would be good for you to really study some of the other views, from the words of those who teach it(rather than just hear it as a straw man from your favorite preacher).
It is very eye opening, and will get you to challenge some of those false presumptions about imminence being about the Rapture.

Imminence always refers to the unsaved and their judgement. Judgement will come without warning to the unbelievers, but will be very obvious to the Believer, because we are awake to it.
The unbelievers will not see it coming, because they are asleep spiritually. They will be proclaiming peace just as the turmoil is coming. We will be proclaiming Christ, and even more vigorously through the persecution.

Notice that even in the parable, the return of the Bridegroom is made known at His Coming to both the believers(ready) and unbelievers(not ready). Notice that there is even a conversation between the two groups before they leave the house.

Notice that there is a certain point where salvation is no longer offered(at His arrival). This is the time of Wrath, when it is too late to be saved.

WHOSE talking about Dispensationalism, I am talking about the Wedding of the LAMB and proper order of preparing for a Jewish Wedding, that JESUS was very familiar with. You really need to read my posts on the thread I started: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ng-out-bride-go-wedding-lamb.html#post1604022

And the parable of the Bridegroom is ONLY talking about people who call themselves Christians, and if it's percentages are accurate and I believe it is perfectly accurate, then 50% of the people who call themselves Christians, do not even have the Holy Spirit in them. In other words, they were NEVER born again.

 

[Bookends]

Forever does not always mean forever "regardless", but often forever has a condition attached to it!

30 Therefore the Lord God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the Lord says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.

 

[Fishbait]

Im asking this because I cant believe that people who
go to war and kill innocent people, can still be god's people.
What is happening in Gaza is not humane.
And innocent people are paying the price.

True Israel today makes mistakes and goes "to war and kills innocent people". Israel today still has "a partial hardening". One of others that leads to war and killings.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25-27

Let's never forget that God made a covenant with Israel. The Abrahamic Covenant. An unconditional covenant. God made promises to Abraham that required nothing of Abraham. Genesis 15:18-21 describes a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, specifically dealing with the dimensions of the land God promised to Abraham and his descendants.

"On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.” Genesis 15:18=21

The Abrahamic Covenant is described in Genesis 12:1–3 and is an unconditional covenant. There are no conditions attached to it (no “if” clauses, suggesting its fulfillment is dependent on man).

The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. “I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” = Genesis 12:1-3

Many people (Christians as well) don't believe that the Abrahamic Covenant applies to Israel today. I'm sure you'll hear from them here in CC as we do on other Christian websites. But know that It's an everlasting covenant. Yes, Israel is still God's chosen people.The promises that God made to Israel are eternal. Ones that still apply to Israel today and will forever and ever.

Read more about the Abrahamic Covenant here: What is the Abrahamic Covenant?