-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
U
Labels. It is just a label. The name is without power.
Believers are Israel.
The descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were never genetic descendants, but descendents by faith.
Being a 'Jew' was never a birthright, but always a rebirthright.
The Theocracy is gone from the physical realm, and only to return at the Millenium.
Those who call themselves Jews, are only Jews if they accept Christ.
If they do not, then they are the same as the Muslims: claiming birthright and claiming to be God's Chosen, yet rejecting God.
They are not God's Chosen if they are not Believers in Christ. According to the Word, they aren't even to be considered as Jews.
This is not antisemitic, but synsemetic, meaning that all Believers become descendants of the Patriarchs,
and no one can claim to be descendants of the Patriarchs without belief in Christ.
Believers are Israel.
The descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were never genetic descendants, but descendents by faith.
Being a 'Jew' was never a birthright, but always a rebirthright.
The Theocracy is gone from the physical realm, and only to return at the Millenium.
Those who call themselves Jews, are only Jews if they accept Christ.
If they do not, then they are the same as the Muslims: claiming birthright and claiming to be God's Chosen, yet rejecting God.
They are not God's Chosen if they are not Believers in Christ. According to the Word, they aren't even to be considered as Jews.
This is not antisemitic, but synsemetic, meaning that all Believers become descendants of the Patriarchs,
and no one can claim to be descendants of the Patriarchs without belief in Christ.
I don't believe todays' Natural Israel has anything to do with "God economy", so I deny that they are God's Chosen today, prior to Christ they were. God's chosen are those in Christ, period. The Israel of God are those who obeyed God and look forward to Christ, and those who accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, One people!
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is oneoutwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is oneoutwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
U
I am pretty sure that the "one day" will be at the Return of Christ, and the inauguration of the Millenial Kingdom.
I highly doubt that this current Israel could possibly have fulfilled that prophecy, only imitated it.
The prophets foretold us of these things, that the apostate church would do signs, and that many would believe they were of God. As unbelievers claiming God's authority, they are fitting this description.
I highly doubt that this current Israel could possibly have fulfilled that prophecy, only imitated it.
The prophets foretold us of these things, that the apostate church would do signs, and that many would believe they were of God. As unbelievers claiming God's authority, they are fitting this description.
And so?...
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
(Rev 7:4-10)
Who are the 144,000? from each tribe of the Sons of Israel. Can't be believing Gentiles as they are mentioned right after.
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
(Rev 7:4-10)
Who are the 144,000? from each tribe of the Sons of Israel. Can't be believing Gentiles as they are mentioned right after.
You might start here...
A Biblical Response to Stephen Sizer - Paul Wilkinson - YouTube
A Biblical Response to Stephen Sizer - Paul Wilkinson - YouTube
U
And you have genealogical proof that these 144k men called themselves Jews, and moved to Israel?
I would not be surprised, and in fact am expecting, many of these to come out of Egypt, Gaza, Saudi, Iraq, Iran, etc... with parents who practiced Islam, Christianity, or were even atheist. I highly doubt that all of those who are in Israel, calling themselves Jews, have lineage to Jacob.
Do you believe that the twelve tribes will all come from those who claim to be of Judah (and Benjamin and Levi perhaps)?
Why raise up one tribe, and neglect the rest?
DISTRACTION.
I don't deny God's purpose in keeping a bloodline as an example of His power,
but I laugh that men think they know who is who before it is revealed.
For 144k, American Christians send billions to a nation, and vote to send trillions more with each election.
If we spent that much attention and funding to the global spreading of the Gospel, every man woman and child would hear the Gospel and have a chance to accept Christ.
Instead, more US funds go to Israel in ministry, business, tourism, political funds, and military force than we give in evangelism to all other nations combined.
Look how distracted we are from our first love and calling.
I would not be surprised, and in fact am expecting, many of these to come out of Egypt, Gaza, Saudi, Iraq, Iran, etc... with parents who practiced Islam, Christianity, or were even atheist. I highly doubt that all of those who are in Israel, calling themselves Jews, have lineage to Jacob.
Do you believe that the twelve tribes will all come from those who claim to be of Judah (and Benjamin and Levi perhaps)?
Why raise up one tribe, and neglect the rest?
DISTRACTION.
I don't deny God's purpose in keeping a bloodline as an example of His power,
but I laugh that men think they know who is who before it is revealed.
For 144k, American Christians send billions to a nation, and vote to send trillions more with each election.
If we spent that much attention and funding to the global spreading of the Gospel, every man woman and child would hear the Gospel and have a chance to accept Christ.
Instead, more US funds go to Israel in ministry, business, tourism, political funds, and military force than we give in evangelism to all other nations combined.
Look how distracted we are from our first love and calling.
Last edited by a moderator:
These 144000 perhaps did come from some of those countries as you mention...so the Scripture says God will regather them from the four corners of the earth.
Those 144,000 perhaps at one time were atheists, Muslims, Buddhists but they were still from the 12 Tribes of Israel who repented and received Jesus perhaps at the preaching of the Two witnesses.
Obviously not all in Israel are of the lineage of Jacob as their are Ismaelites and other ethnicities, but God knows who are His.
Going by your first sentence, you don't believe that the 144,000 are of natural descent of Jacob and believers in Jesus?
Proof? I can't top "IT IS WRITTEN".
Those 144,000 perhaps at one time were atheists, Muslims, Buddhists but they were still from the 12 Tribes of Israel who repented and received Jesus perhaps at the preaching of the Two witnesses.
Obviously not all in Israel are of the lineage of Jacob as their are Ismaelites and other ethnicities, but God knows who are His.
Going by your first sentence, you don't believe that the 144,000 are of natural descent of Jacob and believers in Jesus?
Proof? I can't top "IT IS WRITTEN".
Proverbs 16:18 (ESV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
Psalm 30:6-10 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] As for me, I said in my prosperity, I shall never be moved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Thou, Jehovah, of thy favor hadst made my mountain {of PRIDE} to stand strong: Thou didst hide thy face; I was troubled.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] I cried to thee, O Jehovah; And unto Jehovah I made supplication:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Hear, O Jehovah, and have mercy upon me: Jehovah, be thou my helper.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
Psalm 30:6-10 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] As for me, I said in my prosperity, I shall never be moved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Thou, Jehovah, of thy favor hadst made my mountain {of PRIDE} to stand strong: Thou didst hide thy face; I was troubled.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] I cried to thee, O Jehovah; And unto Jehovah I made supplication:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Hear, O Jehovah, and have mercy upon me: Jehovah, be thou my helper.
This is what I took your first sentence to be...
"And you have genealogical proof that these 144k men called themselves Jews, and moved to Israel?"
Why did you ask me If I had "proof" when I never claimed that they called themselves Jews and moved to Israel?
You set up an assumptive challenge and expected me to come up with proof?
And yet I challenged your statements ...
"The descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were never genetic descendants, but descendents by faith."
"They are not God's Chosen if they are not Believers in Christ. According to the Word, they aren't even to be considered as Jews."
by quoting Revelation 7 and was given a non answer.
So how do you answer your two statements above with Rev. 7?
"And you have genealogical proof that these 144k men called themselves Jews, and moved to Israel?"
Why did you ask me If I had "proof" when I never claimed that they called themselves Jews and moved to Israel?
You set up an assumptive challenge and expected me to come up with proof?
And yet I challenged your statements ...
"The descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were never genetic descendants, but descendents by faith."
"They are not God's Chosen if they are not Believers in Christ. According to the Word, they aren't even to be considered as Jews."
by quoting Revelation 7 and was given a non answer.
So how do you answer your two statements above with Rev. 7?
U
I see now.
We are missing each other because of our assumptions.
You assume that because there is a purpose and prophecy for 144k genetic descendants to become spiritual descendants, that that means that all genetic descendants are still to be considered Chosen in some sense.
I assume that the Election of the son has nothing to do with the Election of his lineage, and therefore, there is no Chosen nation aside from the Body of Christ.
God keeps track of lineage, and through His foreknowledge has chosen individuals,
by why are we filling in the gaps, and calling their lineage chosen just because a future set is chosen?
If my son happens to be one of the 144k (my wife's father was Jewish, but I'm not sure that qualifies my son) does it somehow make my father-in-law and his ancestry all somehow Chosen?
I am Chosen, but that does not mean that all of my ancestors were somehow Chosen.
God kept my ancestors in the sense that He knew me before Creation, and made sure that history went in a way that I would be born, but His Providence in allowing my ancestors to procreate does not make themselves a Chosen race.
What I am saying is: just because the 144k will be natural born does not mean we need to give money to their parents government (some of their parents... if any.... as we discussed in that the 144k are not necessarily even come from today's nation called Israel).
We are missing each other because of our assumptions.
You assume that because there is a purpose and prophecy for 144k genetic descendants to become spiritual descendants, that that means that all genetic descendants are still to be considered Chosen in some sense.
I assume that the Election of the son has nothing to do with the Election of his lineage, and therefore, there is no Chosen nation aside from the Body of Christ.
God keeps track of lineage, and through His foreknowledge has chosen individuals,
by why are we filling in the gaps, and calling their lineage chosen just because a future set is chosen?
If my son happens to be one of the 144k (my wife's father was Jewish, but I'm not sure that qualifies my son) does it somehow make my father-in-law and his ancestry all somehow Chosen?
I am Chosen, but that does not mean that all of my ancestors were somehow Chosen.
God kept my ancestors in the sense that He knew me before Creation, and made sure that history went in a way that I would be born, but His Providence in allowing my ancestors to procreate does not make themselves a Chosen race.
What I am saying is: just because the 144k will be natural born does not mean we need to give money to their parents government (some of their parents... if any.... as we discussed in that the 144k are not necessarily even come from today's nation called Israel).
Last edited by a moderator:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Ezekiel 28:24-26 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "And there shall no longer be a pricking brier or a painful thorn for the house of Israel from among all who are around them, who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD."
[SUP]25 [/SUP] 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God." ' "
[SUP]24 [/SUP] "And there shall no longer be a pricking brier or a painful thorn for the house of Israel from among all who are around them, who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD."
[SUP]25 [/SUP] 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God." ' "