Righteousness Mat 5:20

Skinski7 · Aug 15, 2014

God reckons or counts us AS righteous. It is a declaration by God where He does not count our former rebellion against us.

If we have a genuine faith, a faith wrought through hearing the word of God and believing it (whereby we are doers of the word) then God counts that faith itself as righteousness. In other words God is looking at our heart and seeing if we have guile or not. If we are truly sincere in yielding to Him then that is enough. Thus we are justified apart from works because God is looking at our root, our underlying motive. Even with our heart being pure we still have to grow in grace and knowledge (thus we grow in sanctification) yet God still counts us as righteous.

Does that make sense?

What the false teachers have done is imply that Romans 4 is teaching that the "righteousness of Christ" or in other words "the obedience of Christ" is reckoned to our account. They see it as a forensic transfer which serves as a cloak. That is why they believe you can engage in sin and remain in a justified state because "God doesn't see you, He sees Jesus."

Look at this quote from the Westminster of Confession which is a foundation document of Reformed Theology.

Chapter 11, Westminster Confession of Faith - Of Justification
Westminster Confession of Faith

That is what people like Elin believe. They believe "you can sin and not surely die" except they express it in fancy theological language which they attempt to support by proof texting isolated Bible passages which they rip out of context.

See how twisted it is? They have people coming into the faith "still in rebellion" and then getting cloaked in that rebellion. That is why Grandpa would say that the pornography addict can be in a justified state while still engaging in that sin. God is not seeing the porn addict as he really is but is seeing Jesus instead. That is nonsense.

These folks totally misrepresent the cross. They teach you get saved IN sin instead of getting saved FROM sin. Those who buy into it remain "workers of iniquity" thinking all is ok because they "trust in the provision made on the cross." The provision they believe in is a myth.

Jesus died to redeem us from all iniquity, not cloak us while we remain in bondage to its service and slowly sin less and less.

mailmandan said:

Yes that is right. Abraham had a genuine working faith. His faith was an active dynamic of heartfelt trusting and yielding to God. Thus when God told Abraham to do something he did it.

Faith is a work. Faith is active. Faith and obedience go hand in hand.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Obedience does not come AFTER faith. Obedience comes WITH faith. Obedience is an intrinsic part of faith. Faith without obedience is not faith at all.

Many people try and teach that "obedience comes later" but that is not true. They believe that faith is something separate from obedience and thus logically faith and disobedience can exist at the same time for awhile. It cannot not. If there is genuine faith then there is obedience. This is why Romans 4:12 connects faith to a walk.

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

That righteousness might be imputed unto them also who walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham. Are these steps justification by works? NO because there is a distinction between FAITH THAT WORKS and WORKS DONE APART FROM FAITH.

Hence...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The works Paul is speaking of in the above verse are the works of the law NOT the work of faith. It is by a WORKING FAITH that grace is made effectual to the saving of the soul.

Does that make sense? Do you still think I am preaching...

The Pharisees didn't teach anything close to what I am teaching. They taught strict subservience to the rules and regulations of the Mosaic Law. They had no knowledge whatsoever of a "faith that works by love" which "upholds the righteousness of the law in the heart." Thus we do well not because we have a rule to follow but because we are inwardly pure and thus outwardly benevolent. We don't murder because "thou shalt not kill," rather we don't murder because we "love God and love our neighbour" and thus the "righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us" for we walk in the "Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ." Is that what the Pharisees taught? No. That is what Paul and Jesus taught.

Please consider my words carefully. Consider what I am really saying. It is very much outside the box compared to what is being preached in all the churches.

Skinski7 · Aug 15, 2014

mailmandan said:

Yes because God knew Abraham's heart. Abraham's faith was genuine.

I have never said that Abraham had some intrinsic merit whereby he could save his soul. Our souls are saved by the implanted word when we receive and therefore yield to it.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The yielding or receiving it is the DOING. Not doing outward works following some moral code but yielding our hearts to God's righteousness IN us. That is how we are made the "righteousness of God IN Him." The Bible Butchers have perverted the simplicity of all this.

mailmandan said:

Nobody's.

God reckons our faith AS righteousness. He looks at the faithful and considers them righteous because of their faith.

mailmandan said:

The term "sinless perfection" is a loaded term. I don't believe in sinless perfection as it is usually defined. I believe in HEART PURITY or being BLAMELESS BEFORE GOD.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

God reckoned the parents of John the Baptist as righteous. No foreign credit needed for God knew their hearts and reckoned their faith as righteousness.

None of us are sinlessly perfect. None of us know all things and are thus immune for making a misstep or misjudgment. I misjudged you by throwing you in with Elin and friends when you are clearly not a Calvinist.

mailmandan said:

It has everything to do with the righteousness of Christ but not in the sense of a "credited transfer of righteousness" as many are teaching. The righteousness of Christ is a state wrought via a faith that works by love via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Thus when we enter into that state we indeed possess the righteousness of Christ and it is MANIFEST. Which is why...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

That doesn't mean it is impossible to sin, it means that it is impossible to sin (ie. rebellion) and abide in Christ at the same time. To sin against God is to leave that state, thus those born of God are not sinning (unto death). They are not in rebellion. They are not engaged in a pornography addiction as some would have us believe.

We have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

You'll never see a Pastor (99.9 % of them anyway) really get into that verse.

mailmandan said:

Amen to that. I am glad you believe that.

Consider everything I have said and dig deep.

Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Grandpa · Aug 15, 2014

Skinski7 said:

IF you are a preacher of a works based gospel then of course you must argue against the power that is in the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

No one who comes to Christ desires to stay stuck in their sin. If they could have removed their own self from this sin, and stopped sinning, they wouldn't need to come to Christ. What would be the point? They have already worked their own way out of their predicament, delivering their own selves. Just as all the self-help, works based gospel preachers tell them.

But when someone comes to the Lord Jesus Christ, truly, they don't leave the same way they came to Him. They are changed. Profoundly. They didn't know for sure what was going to happen. They just knew, by faith, that if it was God's Will, they would be delivered from their sin. And they find out that is where all their blessings are. In Christ Jesus. Not in their own ablilities, or work.

So anytime a saved person is in peril or needs help for anything, they know exactly who they can call on. The same one they called on for deliverance from their sin. The Lord Jesus Christ.

But the person who repented by their self, delivered their own self, saved their own self, I suppose they just say Look at me Lord, aren't I clean and good? Aren't I worthy of my ticket to heaven by my own work?

Ninevah responded to the Word of God presented by His Preacher just as God knew they would... I don't really see the dilemma...

Elin · Aug 15, 2014

Skinski7 said:

Precisely.

You seek to impose your logic (how? how?) on God's word (Ro 7:7-8),
rather than God's word (Ro 4:5) on your logic.

God gave him a new heart and new mind in rebirth, which manifested itself in all that he did,
starting with his realization of his sin against the Father.

Perfect picture of the unregenerate's rebirth into eternal life, faith, justification, repentance and obedience.

Who do you think the Prodigal represents in the parable?

I note that you ignore and do not reckon with, because you simply do not believe,
the unequivocal word of God in:

1) Ro 7:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

The unregenerate man cannot pull himself up by his own boot straps to do "works of faith,"
he is spiritually powerless, he can't even believe, faith has to be given to him
(Php 1:9; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
and which, as long as he is unregenerate, he can't even receive, which would please God,
because the unregenerate cannot please God.

You simply do not believe Ro 7:7-8 because it doesn't fit your logic.

However, only when God gives the rebirth from spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life) to eternal life
can a man even receive the gift of faith which justifies him.

Rebirth into eternal life = faith = justification = sin forgiven = salvation (Lk 1:77; Col 3:14).
It's all one work of God which cannot be divided or separated.

There are not any reborn walking around who all possess eternal life but are not justified,
for eternal life is permanently secured by the power of God (Jn 10:28-29) at justification (not guilty,
sin forgiven, which is salvation --Lk 1:77; Col 3:14).
Eternal life, faith and justification cannot be divided or separated.

Rebirth into eternal life = faith = justification = sin forgiven = salvation (Lk 1:77; Col 3:14).
It's all one work of God which cannot be divided or separated.

2) Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked"

because there are no others to justify, all are unregenerate and cannot please God.

Nor are there any born again walking around with eternal life, who are not yet justified.
Eternal life, faith and justification cannot be divided or separated.

It is Skinski-ism that is the Satanic deception.

just-me · Aug 15, 2014

KJV1611 said:

It means not to add or subtract to what God has established from the beginning. The Pharisees were real good at that, making the law read according to their liking, and using it to elevate themselves to an almost deified standard in the sight of the population. Then they required people to follow their rules that were not God's. That's why Jesus had such a problem with them. The scribes and Pharisees had totally distorted these righteous principles originally endorsed to the children of Israel starting with the first Passover.

Elin · Aug 15, 2014

Skinski7 said:

The contradiction is only in Skinski-ism logic.

They are consistent in NT logic, which you cannot understand, because you do not believe
the word of God in Ro 7:7-8 and 4:5.

mailmandan · Aug 16, 2014

Skinski7 said:

But based on what? Our faith in Christ or our good works? Christ's finished work of redemption or our performance?

You make it sound like doers first, then faith is finally accounted as righteousness, which means faith + our performance/good works is accounted as righteousness. That's not what Paul said (Romans 4:5-6).

Being sincere about yielding to Him is enough? You are moving past faith to our performance again.

All the sincerity in the world is not enough apart from faith. Hearts are purified by faith. If we perfectly yielded to Him then we would never sin.

Still sounds like salvation through faith + our performance/good works.

Engage in sin? No one who is born of God practices sin, but that does not mean that believers never sin at all. Either God see's us as righteous in Christ or else He see's us as unrighteous because apart from Christ, our sin remains.

Being born of God and a worker of iniquity is an oxymoron.

Yet when was Abraham's faith accounted for righteousness? When he believed God in Genesis 15:6 or not until many years later, after he set out to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis 22?

Faith is not just another work in a list of works. This is why Paul said that we are saved through faith, not works. Faith is living and active because it is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5). Faith is the root and obedience/good works is the fruit. Faith and works are like a two-coupon ticket to heaven. The coupon of works is not good for passage and the coupon of faith is not valid if void of works. That's how they go hand in hand. The error that people make is they simply say faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. This is where people cross the line into salvation by works because they make no distinction between the root of salvation (faith) and the fruit of salvation (obedience/good works).

Work of faith, labor of love is the practical outworking of their conversion. The work the Thessalonians do is a result or a consequence of their faith. So too, their labor flows from love, and their steadfastness comes from hope. This verse is not saying that faith "is" this work. Work "of" faith or "work done out of faith." Faith is evidenced, not established by works. When you make no distinction between faith and works, then you have salvation by works and not through faith in Christ.

Are you saying that faith is defined as works of obedience? If so, you have crossed the line into salvation by works. Paul's mission, as he perceived it, was to bring people to the point of saving faith in Christ, which in turn, would be expressed in appropriate fashion in obedience. This obedience flows from living, saving faith because we are saved, not to become saved. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as “obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that are obedient to God. Notice in Romans 1:5 that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience which comes from faith. We have access by FAITH into GRACE… (Romans 5:2) not faith “and obedience.” We are saved through faith first, then “unto” obedience/for (good works). We don't want to put the cart before the horse.

Faith in Christ is established first and then multiple acts of obedience come AFTERWARD. Obedience is a manifestation of our faith. If we accomplish a lifetime of multiple acts of obedience to the Lord, this as a manifestation of our faith, but not the origin of it. If someone died the same day that they genuinely placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (like the thief on the cross) and was unable to accomplish a lifetime of multiple acts of obedience to the Lord, they still had faith. You couldn't say, they did not accomplish these multiple acts of obedience and faith "is" in essence these multiple acts of obedience, so they did not have faith.

Obedience is the fruit of faith, not the essence of faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is the root of salvation and obedience/good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate no root.

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Setting out to sacrifice Isaac (a work of obedience) came later, many years later in Genesis 22. So you make no distinction between faith and obedient works?

Faith is the root and obedience is the fruit. That's how they are separate. Peter had faith but was not obedient in this situation in Galatians 2:11-15. He had a weak moment but that does not mean he didn't have faith. Over all, he was still consistently obedient, even though he had some weak moments in his life. Are you obedient 100% of the time? Do you never sin at all? Walk does not mean salvation by works.

There is a distinction between faith AND works. Is walking in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham a description of someone who is saved or an additional requirement of works that must be accomplished before one is saved? Faith works as a result of it being alive in Christ. Saved through faith in Christ FIRST, then unto good works.

Works of faith are good works which you cannot detach from the moral aspect of the law (Love God and your neighbor as yourself). Paul said saved through faith in Ephesians 2:8, not saved through works of faith. It is faith in Christ that grace is made effectual to the saving of the soul, which in turn results in works. We have access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2) not faith and obedience/works. The obedience/works follows access into grace through faith.

You are still preaching salvation by works. You are just more subtle about it than others.

Close enough. Salvation by works is still salvation by works. Difference in style, but same in substance.

Whether we teach strict subservience to the rules and regulations of the Mosaic Law or that we are saved through faith AND good works, it's still works salvation, which makes us no better than the Pharisees.

Do we do all of these things above BECAUSE we are saved or to become saved? That's the real difference. Regardless of exactly what the Pharisees taught, at the core, they taught salvation by works and at the core of what most people teach today is salvation by works. Difference in style, but same in substance. Salvation based on performance/works.

It's not much different than what I heard growing up in the Roman Catholic church and in the church of Christ that I had at one time temporarily attended. I'm basically hearing the same message from you and them, that salvation is based on our performance/good works and is not through "faith in Christ alone." I'm not talking about a dead faith that "remains alone" (barren of works). I'm talking about faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works. My faith trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. I practice righteousness and not sin because I have been born of God, not to become born of God. So what words of yours am I suppose to consider carefully that will convince me to "withdraw" my faith from trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation and trust in my performance/good works instead?

Elin · Aug 16, 2014

.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mailmandan again.

mailmandan said:

To quote someone (here) who shall remain nameless:

Indeed! It is very much outside the box. . .of the entire NT!

Skinski7 said:

Which is precisely the work the cross does in the righteousness of sanctification,
which necessarily follows the righteousness of justification (declared not guilty, sin forgiven).

The "foreign righteousness" credited to our account (Ro 5:19) because of faith is justification,
God's declaration of "not guilty," sin forgiven = salvation (Lk 1:77; Col 3:14)
from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on one's guilt.

It's all one work of God.

Skinski7 said:

That would be the pot calling the kettle black, since you assiduously avoid:

1) Ro 7:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

2) Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked,"

The Satanic deception is Skinski-ism.

jdbear · Aug 20, 2014

I'm aware that Gods word has spiritual meaning. Maybe the answer to all of this can be summed up like this:
"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." 2 Cor.3:6

Jesus always encouraged people to obey Him.

jdbear · Aug 20, 2014

Then true born again Christians must be those who obey God:

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 Jon.2:3-4

Skinski7 · Aug 20, 2014

Elin said:

A repentant sinner has changed their mind from a sinful mind to a mind that yearns for righteousness.

It is the rebel who does not submit, not the repentant sinner.

A mind in a rebellious state which is rejecting God cannot obey God.

Those who are in the present state of rebellion to God cannot please God.

You view all the verses you reference through a lense of "Total Depravity" and thus instead of seeing these verses of speaking of "rebellious people with a choice" (ie. they can repent and thus stop being that way) you view them as "totally depraved having no choice." That is the bottom line

Thus you take that view and conclude that sinners approach God still serving their sins in rebellion as opposed to forsaking their sins in repentance. You think it impossible to forsake sin until AFTER salvation (yet the sin still continues anyway due to the flesh).

What this means is that you believe is that a rapist can be "justified" while he is still out committing rape, still our murdering people, a liar is still out lying, a cheat is still out cheating and a thief is still out stealing. That right there collapses all your rhetoric.

Your theology ignores real repentance and replaces it with a "confession of sinfulness." The Bible teaches that godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation where a total change in mind and action has resulted. Your doctrine ignores that and reverses it where you have a "confession of sinfulness" accepting salvation unto a cessation of rebellion. Which is why you can have the porn addict "justified" and still addicted to and serving the lusts of their flesh in disobedience to God. In your theology the old man is NEVER crucified in repentance and thus no true reception of the implanted word EVER occurs. It is a diabolical deception.

Sanctification in your doctrine is thus redefined to "rebelling less and less with the heart still remaining somewhat filthy" as opposed to "growing more and more where the heart has already been purified."

This statement of yours says a whole lot...

You view God as justifying an individual who confesses their sinfulness and trusts in the the cross package, even though they are still serving their sin. Thus God justifies the wicked. You isolate and rip verses like Romans 4:5 completely out of their context.

Paul is repeating the sentiment of David who wrote...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

People like you ignore the context because your theology teaches that God justifies the ungodly within the context of a heart still being full of guile, a heart that is not upright.

Psa 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

Yet the sentiment of David is that God is willing to forgive the rebellion of those who have turned to God with contrite and honest hearts having forsaken their sin. This is why Paul connects the imputation of righteousness to WALKING IN THE STEPS OF FAITH in Romans 4:12. There must be an associated walk because FAITH WORKS.

It is impossible to have a pornography addict indulging in porn whilst at the same time possessing a faith that God reckons as righteousness. Such a thing is impossible. One cannot serve God and serve Satan at the same time.

James taught...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Why did James teach that? James taught that because he knew that one must cleanse themselves of rebellion to God in order to receive God within. One cannot give themselves over to God while disobeying Him. Those things are opposites.

This is all so very clear, it takes theological rhetoric to convolute it. A child could understand this.

James continues on...

Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Hearing and Doing is key. A porn addict indulging in porn is not a doer of the word. God justifying the ungodly is God justifying that porn viewer when they repent and forsake their sin by being buried with Christ in the baptism of repentance where their old man is crucified by which the body of sin (which served sin) is destroyed once and for all, out of which the service of sin ceases. This new convert has come clean with God and has ceased from their rebellion and can thus receive the implanted word within and be utterly transformed by the power of God from the inside out. THAT IS THE GOSPEL. THAT IS THE CROSS.

Jesus died to we can die with Him whereby we can approach God by His blood with honest and contrite hearts and be cleansed of all our dead works (all those works done apart from God, done apart from faith). Now with a fresh start we can serve God in Spirit and in truth. Not by our own power but by the power of God manifesting through us, the seed within, we being born again.

I really hope folks reading this really think about what I have written. Don't buy into the rhetoric of the wolves who preach, "ye can sin and not surely due" and "sin ye will and sin ye must." Those are lies of Satan no matter how dressed up with out of context Bible verses they may be.

Jesus said that it is the pure in heart who will see God. Our hearts MUST be pure. Not some forensic transfer of purity where a still filthy heart is treated as if it is pure, no a REAL MANIFEST PURITY out of which flows true righteousness.

Skinski7 · Aug 20, 2014

jdbear said:

Without obedience unto righteousness there can be no holiness unto everlasting life.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

These wolves treat salvation as a forensic package and fail to understand that in reality that salvation is a result of faithfully abiding in Jesus Christ. To them "abiding in Jesus" is an abstract notion they simply "believe" which they disconnect from the "doing" involved. Thus they are able to convince themselves that one can abide in Jesus and sin against Jesus at the same time.

Can you see the deception of practically all modern theology? The truth "of the walk" has been ripped from the Gospel. They disconnect justification from "doing from the heart." Look again at Romans 6:17...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

The false Gospel redefines everything. They have people "confessing sinfulness" and "trusting in Jesus" because "Jesus paid the sin debt." It's a total lie.

Jesus preached the doctrine according to godliness. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. Salvation is only wrought when an individual WALKS in this doctrine.

We are saved by grace through faith because...

FAITH = Obedience from the heart.

GRACE = The Quickening.

The whole dynamic is the gift of God and is not of outward works (ie. obey this rule or obey that rule). Rather it is of the inward dynamic of a heart yielding to God which then God then quickens. This is how salvation works*. The cross is the means to bring us into this state.

Peter wrote...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Jesus died so that we would live. Not to accept some package where we trust in some legal transaction, no that has NOTHING to do with it. Jesus died so that we could be reconciled to God through repentance and faith whereby we approach God in the right manner and are cleansed inwardly. The blood is to purge sin and the cross is to purge rebellion.

The major deceptions today are...

1. Total Depravity/Original Sin/Birth Sinful Nature - This teaches inability.
2. Penal Substution view of the Atonement - This premises reconciliation upon a legal transaction which cloaks an ongoing filthy state.

*This is why the whole OSAS vs non-OSAS debate is worthless. Both sides are upholding an abstract view of salvation.

Skinski7 · Aug 20, 2014

[video=youtube;XPuhbm74JRU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPuhbm74JRU[/video]

Skinski7 · Aug 20, 2014

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
1Ti 6:18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. The first to Timothy was written from Laodicea, which is the chiefest city of Phrygia Pacatiana.

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
...
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

We must love the same way Jesus loves.

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

This is all so simple. The Bible means what it says.

Anyone still engaging in known sin is not a child of God, rather they are children of the devil. It is he who DOES what is righteous who is righteous and don't let anyone deceive you otherwise. Righteousness is wrought via abiding in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ whereby the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Elin · Aug 20, 2014

Skinski7 said:

That's a FAIL.

How can the unregenerate repent if they cannot do anything that pleases God?

You really don't understand the NT meaning of unregenerate, do you?

Only the rebirth and faith give the unregenerate the power to repent.
And all the reborn are saved sons of God.

There are no reborn who are not sons of God.
And there are no sons of God who are not reborn.

All the objections and reasoning you mount simply show that
you really don't understand the NT meaning of unregenerate,
or more likely, that you understand it, but you refuse to believe it.

Straw man.

You have me confused with someone else.

You just don't believe Ro 7:7-8, 4:5.

It's no bigger than that.

jdbear · Aug 20, 2014

Skinski7 said:

Without obedience unto righteousness there can be no holiness unto everlasting life.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

These wolves treat salvation as a forensic package and fail to understand that in reality that salvation is a result of faithfully abiding in Jesus Christ. To them "abiding in Jesus" is an abstract notion they simply "believe" which they disconnect from the "doing" involved. Thus they are able to convince themselves that one can abide in Jesus and sin against Jesus at the same time.

Can you see the deception of practically all modern theology? The truth "of the walk" has been ripped from the Gospel. They disconnect justification from "doing from the heart." Look again at Romans 6:17...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

The false Gospel redefines everything. They have people "confessing sinfulness" and "trusting in Jesus" because "Jesus paid the sin debt." It's a total lie.

Jesus preached the doctrine according to godliness. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. Salvation is only wrought when an individual WALKS in this doctrine.

We are saved by grace through faith because...

FAITH = Obedience from the heart.

GRACE = The Quickening.

The whole dynamic is the gift of God and is not of outward works (ie. obey this rule or obey that rule). Rather it is of the inward dynamic of a heart yielding to God which then God then quickens. This is how salvation works*. The cross is the means to bring us into this state.

Peter wrote...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Jesus died so that we would live. Not to accept some package where we trust in some legal transaction, no that has NOTHING to do with it. Jesus died so that we could be reconciled to God through repentance and faith whereby we approach God in the right manner and are cleansed inwardly. The blood is to purge sin and the cross is to purge rebellion.

The major deceptions today are...

1. Total Depravity/Original Sin/Birth Sinful Nature - This teaches inability.
2. Penal Substution view of the Atonement - This premises reconciliation upon a legal transaction which cloaks an ongoing filthy state.

*This is why the whole OSAS vs non-OSAS debate is worthless. Both sides are upholding an abstract view of salvation.

Hello Skinski. I agree with what you posted. The idea that The Father was punishing the Son for the sins of mankind is unjust, but this false teaching has consumed the church. That Jesus of His own will came into this world (a gift to all), does not mean people won't reap what they sow.
Jesus died for our sins by coming here to show us the path to God and was killed by the hatred of man, not the wrath of His Father.

Sophie88 · Aug 20, 2014

Well, the Pharisees righteousness was legalistic and through their own works, but our righteousness must be through Gods indwelling Holy spirit, we received from him at Salvation.

Kerry · Aug 20, 2014

Sophie88 said:

Close, but know cigar, Our righteousness come from the cross and our faith in it. The thief on the cross looked at Jesus and said Lord when you come into your kingdom remember me. This guy was being killed for theft and hung on a cross just as Jesus was without the nails. Jesus in His pain turned and looked at him and said " today you will be with me in Paradise" that simple faith saved that thief. No baptism, no theology, no new members class, no newbies orientation, just plain faith.

What righteousness did this thief have?

Skinski7 · Aug 21, 2014

Elin said:

How?

The same way the people of Nineveh did, through godly sorrow.

As I said in my previous post the fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is "inability." This foundational flaw forces you to twist the clear sentiment of the Biblical text.

When Jesus preached repentance he used the people of Nineveh as an example (Mat 12:41, Jon 3:4-10). Those people heard the preaching of Jonah and believed it. They forsook their evil way and God saw that they had turned and granted them a reprieve. Your theology ignores that completely.

Every human being has the ability to repent and turn to God and because of that it makes us responsible to do so. Your theology is the theology of irresponsibility because it offers people the excuse of "I can't."

Your theology teaches "sin you will and sin you must" because you cannot help it. It is for this reason in this very thread you support the notion that a pornography addict can be forgiven by God whilst they still continue to engage in their sin.

Your theology would have Nineveh being granted a reprieve by God while they are still continuing in their wicked ways because they lack the ability to forsake those ways. Your theology is backwards and you know it. That is why you cannot directly address the things I say, you are forced to worm your way around them.

Paul wrote...

2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Godly Sorrow ---------> Repentance ---------> Salvation

Your theology completely destroys Biblical repentance.

2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

How does that address what I wrote earlier? You just ignore what I write and make your statements as if they are true. You have thrown reason to the wind.

If rebirth + faith give the unregenerate the power to repent then how did Nineveh repent? The Bible doesn't teach that they were born again first, it simply says they turned from their evil way.

Sin is a choice and people can refrain if they want to. Godly sorrow brings conviction upon the heart which produces the motivation to change behaviour.

No-one is forcing a pornography addict to view their porn, they choose to do so. Yes there is extreme bondage involved but not "inability." The pornography addict needs to experience a crisis of conviction wrought by godly sorrow which works a genuine change of mind (and therefore change of action).

Let's take a look at the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luk 15:11-32).

The Prodigal Son was DEAD.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The Prodigal Son was DEAD and LOST.
Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

In this state of being dead and lost this is what happened...

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

He came to himself and used his reasoning faculties. He realised he was in a mess whilst his father's servants were not. He then made a decision to do something. He decided to leave the pig pen and return to his Father and confess the truth. He then DID IT.

When he was still a long way off (an analogy of being dead in sin) his father saw him and came to him and restored him. Godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation.

God did not have to offset some inability. The Prodigal Son did not have to be regenerated in the pig pen to give him the ability to repent. Both the Ninevites and the Prodigal Son has the ability to repent BEFORE mercy was granted.

What do you do with that? Do you just ignore it? Do you isolate and proof text a few verses out of their context as a diversion?

A straw man? Why is it a straw man? Don't just blow it off by calling it a name. Explain yourself.

It is not a straw man. I asked the simple questions of...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97489-righteousness-mat-5-20-a.html#post1649181

The answer to which you agreed with was an emphatic "NO."

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97489-righteousness-mat-5-20-a-3.html#post1650787

"They can't stop...They must believe they are forgiven BEFORE they come to Him."

You see what I stated is not a strawman at all. Your doctrine has an individual still in rebellion being forgiven. That is not what happened in Nineveh nor is it what happened with the Prodigal Son. Both Nineveh and the Prodigal Son already had help, they had free will ability to make a choice and they had the conviction wrought by God through preaching and the light revealed to all men.

There is no such thing as "inability" to turn to God, the reprobate whom God gave up in Romans 1 of course. Inability has its origin in Gnostic Dualism which taught that "matter was evil" which subjugated the soul to vice. Thus a disconnect between the deeds resulting from matter (which was corrupt) and the state of the spirit was made. Augustine then brought a refined version of this teaching into orthodox Christianity in the fourth century and called it "Original Sin."

Augustine taught that the corrupted nature of Adam was passed down the generations and that all children are BORN dead to God and already condemned. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin held Augustine in very high regard and thus built upon his teachings.

[QUOTEYou just don't believe Ro 7:7-8, 4:5.

It's no bigger than that.[/QUOTE]

It is very easy to throw up some verse references to lend some kind of credibility and blow off everything I actually say isn't it?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Sin gains its power via knowledge is all that Paul is teaching here. Without knowing right and wrong one cannot sin unto death and therefore it was via the law that sin came alive.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Which is exactly what happened with Eve and Adam. Sin took occasion by the commandment (thou shalt not) and slew her. Adam then disobeyed God and likewise die. The same thing with Paul.

James describes it very well...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Which is why "sin unto death" is the opposite of "obedience unto righteousness."

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Which is why "eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ" is the opposite of "earning sins wages which is death."

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you might convince yourself I don't believe Romans 7:7-8 but you are only fooling yourself and others who favour lies. I assure I believe to the utmost Rom 7:7-8 and its parallel in James and other places.

As for Romans 4:5
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I have already addressed that clearly in this thread. God reckons faithfulness as righteousness. A faith which has a walk (Rom 4:12), a faith which has an obedience (Heb 11:8) and a faith which has deeds (Joh 8:39).

Faith is not lip service nor is faith passive. Faith is the active dynamic whereby we yield out wills over to God because we truly believe He is righteous and has our best interests in mind.

There is no rebellion in faith and there is no forgiveness of sin whilst in a present state of rebellion.

What we do matters because what we do reveals the condition of our hearts. It is the pure in heart who will see God, it is the workers of iniquity who will be rejected.

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Elin · Aug 21, 2014

Skinski7 said:

And there is no godly sorrow without God's enablement.

It's not my theology, it's Paul's theology.
Your disagreement is with Paul, not with me.

Ro 7:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked,"

And if I may add, the fundamental flaw with your "theology" is unbelief of Ro 7:7-8, 4:5.

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God
with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount are based in your rational inability to reconcile

Ro 7:7-8, 4:5 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

Righteousness Mat 5:20

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