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kennethcadwell
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Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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God also made many beautiful looking people (who are capable of being intimate with one another), too. That does not mean believers have a license to go out and and sleep around with them all just because they are beautiful people who can be intimate with each other. A believer cannot also take something that belongs to somebody else, either. Yes, God owns everything. But we live in a world where there are established propety laws by men, too (That we have to respect and abide by because God has placed all nations into power). You also fail to realize that there are many many many warnings against the OT saints drinking alcohol or strong intoxicating beverages. For I fail to see how you think OT saints can drink if the Scriptures essentially say strong drink is a mocker and that it can bite you like a serpent. I fail to see how you think that Jesus could have served intoxicating wine if the Scriptures say wine is not for kings. Did not Jesus lead by example and does He not want us to be spiritual kings and priests?
Anyways, it was not until the cross until believers would be able to have a liberty in Christ so as to drink intoxicating beverages soberly and moderatly in the privacy of their own place. Such a liberty did not exist before the cross. For before the cross, the OT saint was not allowed to even eat unclean animals.
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In other words, you are mixing our liberty in Christ within the New Testament with the Law of Moses within the Old Testament which did have restrictions on things (Like not eating certain unclean animals). This is the spiritual message that Jesus wanted to get across to us in regards to the Parable of the New Wine into Old Wine Skins. In other words, the Law of Moses was fulfilled upon the cross and we are now under a New Covenant or New Testament. So don't mix the Old Testament Laws with the New Testament way of things.
Read Hebrews 8-9. It mentions two testaments. You will also notice that it explains that the word covenant as a testament, too. Yes, there were other minor covenants in the OT that were dedicated in blood; However, this was simply men who were in re-acceptance of that Old covenant. Yes, these various covenants had unique promises that were exclusive to them, but it was merely a re-joing or rededication to the original first major covenant of the Old Testament that was established with Adam and Eve (When an innocent animal was slaughtered for them by God to cover their nakedness).
Read Hebrews 8-9. It mentions two testaments. You will also notice that it explains that the word covenant as a testament, too. Yes, there were other minor covenants in the OT that were dedicated in blood; However, this was simply men who were in re-acceptance of that Old covenant. Yes, these various covenants had unique promises that were exclusive to them, but it was merely a re-joing or rededication to the original first major covenant of the Old Testament that was established with Adam and Eve (When an innocent animal was slaughtered for them by God to cover their nakedness).
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Thank you for confirming that UNFERMENTED WINE is a contradiction of terms.
Something that is "naturally fermenting" can be termed "unfermented" you say?
Keep saying that over and over and maybe something will click in your brain.
Now, about your FULLY FORMENT COMPLETELY, do you know what that means?
I'm not even going to complain about you inventing new words. I mean, you invent your absurd private interpretation of God's Word, as do StandingFirmInChrist and KJV1611.
Do you know what you end up with when your FULLY FERMENT COMPLETELY has occurred?
Leavened Bread is not leavened bread until it poofs up (or fully leavens) with the yeast. It's the same with fully fermented wine.
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You do drink wine but you say it is made from CORRUPTION and a poison to the human body?
That makes about as much such as your KJV-ONLY cultism.
Alcoholic beverages offer no nutritional value and they dry things out within your body. It can lead to addiction. And can intoxicate you if you are not careful to be on your guard against it. In fact, the over abundance of drinking too much alcohol can lead to health problems. There are no health problems when people eat too much salad or fruit. Alcohol destroys families every several minutes as we speak. Salads and fruits do not destroy familes every several minutes. Think about it.
My understanding is that the word "wine" came from the Greek word "oinos" and was transliterated into Latin as "vinum."
If the Hebrew "yayin" for wine comes from a Hebrew root word that means fermented and the Greek word "oinos" comes from a Greek root word that means intoxicating, you have a big clue there that we are talking about alcoholic beverages.
What is fully fermented wine?
What did the people in biblical times end up with when they had a perfectly fine wine but it fermented even more than they wanted it to?
The warnings are against the abuse of alcoholic beverages, not the enjoyment of alcoholic beverages as God intended.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
Exactly, the bible is against the abuse of it.
For in the bible it also tells us acceptable times to drink fermented wine.
Amazing that you say there was no non-alcoholic wine, when History reveals many instances of non-alcoholic wines.
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lisa79
Guest
When I joined this thread I really wasn't sure if you were right or wrong and though I still don't want to say for sure because I understand the danger of being wrong but the more you try to prove you are right the more I come to believe as a matter of opinion (which is all your statement is) you are wrong. Its not funny that if you are wrong you WILL NOT partake of it but listen to how ridiculous you sound. Do you really think what made the wine good was vitamins? Wow...
And what was coursing through the veins of the grape in the cluster if there was no such thing as grape juice? Mustard?
The fact is, you squeeze a grape, today or in Bible times, grape juice comes out of it. It is not alcoholic in the least. And grape juice, as the Bible reveals, was called wine.
Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
In Matthew 9:17, Jesus calls the the juice before the fermentation process oinos. oinos is a generic term, meaning fermented or unfermented wine, and Matthew 9:17 clearly shows this to be fact.
W.E. Vine's definition of oinos is flawed, since Matthew 9:17 shows even Jesus referring to oinos as being wine before fermentation
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No one is denying there is such a thing as grape juice. We all know Dr Welch made grape juice.
But the Hebrew word "yayin" does not mean grape juice.
And what happens when you squeeze a grape? It's called fermentation. In fact, it can happen before the grape is squeezed. It can happen when the grape is still in the cluster on the vine.
I'll get to Isaiah 65.8 soon. As soon as I deal with this other nonsense. You and Larry and Moe keep distracting me with more and more nonsense, that you repeat over and over and again and again, no matter how many times you are proven wrong.
And your best source of this is what, exactly?
I know you Google until you find something that agrees with your . . . okay I bit my tongue. This is the internet. I'm a French model. Bon jour. It must be true because it says so on the internet. Why, you can even find some who say the Holocaust never happened.
So hit me with your best shot (source). Better yet, explain it in your own words. Lol. Sorry. I shouldn't laugh until I read what you can manage without copying and pasting.
Ever hear of Libraries? They have sections called "Ancient History" Try going to one and researching for a change. You will find writings by historical figures such as Cato, Columella, Pliny the Elder, et. al.. I have. In those writings, written long before Welch was even born... centuries before, in fact,... are recorded methods of preserving oinos in its unfermented state.
My research began long before google search was even implemented by computer geeks.
Okay, from all these ancient writings you have read, tell me what Pliny the Elder had to say that is relevant to this discussion.