OSAS supporters, explain these, if you will please.

[SeaBass]

Poorly stated but no one has claimed anything different.

Not poorly stated but a stated fact. Being in the group is conditional therefore being sealed is also CONDITIONAL and not unconditional as OSAS claims.

Salvation is not a progressive process. Salvation is an event that occurs in and at a specific time. Salvation is a gift freely given to all who receive His Son. Grace is wholly of God. Any obedience is at Gods moving within the mans heart. Man can do no good thing of himself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the Christian to remain in the sealed group requires an ongoing, sustained walk, 1 Jn 1:7, a sustained hearing and following/obeying of the Lord, Jn 10:27, Heb 5:9.

 

[Hoffco]

It is discussing of you people who shame God for not having the power to OSAS, to save to the uttermost, as He promises to do. God says, His Sheep will never perish, I believe God.!!! God said it, that settles it.!!! JUST believe it.!!! NOW, the verses that seem to say different, I just take them very serious and try to always ABIDE in Christ so I will be SAVED. ONLY God knows the end from the beginning. Salvation can not change, our feelings are what change, SOOOOO get working on getting the FEELING back, ABIDE. Love to all,Hoffco

 

[notuptome]

Not poorly stated but a stated fact. Being in the group is conditional therefore being sealed is also CONDITIONAL and not unconditional as OSAS claims.

God states an entirely different point of view. I'm going with the Lord. You may wish to challenge God and tell Him He cannot do what He has purposed to do but I'm not going there.

Goats to the left. Religious but lost to the left. Undeserving, unworthy humble sinners enter to the right.

For the Christian to remain in the sealed group requires an ongoing, sustained walk, 1 Jn 1:7, a sustained hearing and following/obeying of the Lord, Jn 10:27, Heb 5:9.

Nope sorry. To maintain fellowship with Christ it is necessary to follow Him. To walk hand in hand in the path of life. God provides all sufficient grace for salvation eternally.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[BlackPlatypus]

Col 1:18 the body is the church, the group Christian.
Eph 5:23 Christ is the Saviour of the body.

Nowhere is the verse that says Christ will unconditionally save the individual outside the body/church?

Paul's letters.
I said all you need to do is show the scriptures where Jesus Christ said exactly what you claimed (in the earlier post) he did.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

So being in the group and sealed is CONDITIONAL upon faith. So remaining in the group and sealed is conditional upon one maintaining his faith. If one casts off his faith he no longer is in the group and therefore no longer sealed.

Once you believe in the only begotten Son of God - Jesus Christ - you are born again. You are BORN of God's Spirit. You cannot become UNBORN . . . been through this before. I really don't care if you say we are no longer sealed whenever we fail or sin - God says through scripture that we are sealed until the day of redemption. God says what he means and means what he says.

Man has no sin nature, Gen 4:7.

I don't see what Genesis 4:7 has to do with anything. We are born of the flesh - we are born of the Spirit. In the flesh is no good thing - that is our sinful nature the flesh. We are partakers of the divine nature - being born again of the Spirit is our NEW nature, the divine nature. It is that NEW nature that is righteous before God.

Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

Verse 28 is speaking about the group Christian > "them that love God", "the called"

Rom 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to beconformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

"For" is an explanatory preposition giving explanation to verse 28.

"whom" refers to the group > "them that love God", "the called" of verse 28

"foreknew" it was the group Christian God foreknew would be saved and not the individual unconditionally saved apart from the group.

Rom 8:38,39 lists those things external to the Christian for the Christian can remove himself from the love of God, therefore Jude commands "keep yourselves in the love of God" Jude 1:21

Romans 8:28 is speaking to Christians - I am a Christian so it is speaking to me. For whom - whom is the individual in that group - he did foreknow - he knew before hand that I would believe - and those, EACH of us who believe are predestined to be conformed into the image of his Son. God doesn't even lay anything to the charge of his elect. [v.33] Jesus Christ does not condemn us - he sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us. v.35-39 Are things that can not separate us from the love of Christ. God forgives ALL iniquities and crowns us with lovingkindness and tender mercies. He does not deal with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities - For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear [reverence] him - (How high are the heavens?) As far as the east is from the west so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. God sees us as perfect through the Spirit by which we have been born again - that's how we stand righteous, justified, sanctified in his presence. Do we get discouraged? Yes - but I know of no one that has gotten so discouraged that they give up and even if they do God still loves those that are his! If someone gives up they still are sealed until the day of redemption - Once someone is born again of the Spirit; they are born again - you cannot become UNBORN! - until the day of redemption. Nothing can change what that verse says.

Jude 1:20-24 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. . . .(22 have compassion on some 23 and others save with fear pulling them out of the fire - unbelievers) 24 - Now unto HIM that is ABLE to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. It is God that keeps me from falling and it is God that presents me faultless!!!!!!

I do want to say that we need to spend time with God and stay in the Word of God - that is what strengthens us and encourages us in our daily walk.

 

[Hoffco]

Please keep in mind that the warnings to the church need to be applied to each heart as the Holy Spirit knows each heart, as to its salvation or not saved. We can not know fully the souls condition with God. So, we preach to the end of the ongoing salvation of the person and exhort for each one to go on with God to the salvation of their soul. a little doubt is good for all. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Please keep in mind that the warnings to the church need to be applied to each heart as the Holy Spirit knows each heart, as to its salvation or not saved. We can not know fully the souls condition with God. So, we preach to the end of the ongoing salvation of the person and exhort for each one to go on with God to the salvation of their soul. a little doubt is good for all. Love to all, Hoffco

I don't believe that 'a little doubt is good for all'. Doubt is the opposite of faith. Faith is trust and your not trusting if you are doubting. I can be sure of my salvation - I do not know fully anyone else's salvation - that is up to God and each individual.

 

[Hoffco]

But, Paul told Timothy to "take heed to himself and to his doctrine, he would save himself and those who hear him. " A little doubt in our selves would make us trust and worship God more.! Love Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

God states an entirely different point of view. I'm going with the Lord. You may wish to challenge God and tell Him He cannot do what He has purposed to do but I'm not going there.

Goats to the left. Religious but lost to the left. Undeserving, unworthy humble sinners enter to the right.

Nope sorry. To maintain fellowship with Christ it is necessary to follow Him. To walk hand in hand in the path of life. God provides all sufficient grace for salvation eternally.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Then show the verse that says one can be apart of the group Christian unconditionally or that an individual can be sealed unconditionally apart from the group Christian.

 

[SeaBass]

Paul's letters.
I said all you need to do is show the scriptures where Jesus Christ said exactly what you claimed (in the earlier post) he did.

Gal 1:12 what Paul preached was from Christ.

The apostles preaching was the same as Christ preaching Eph 2:17.

 

[Fishbait]

It is a debate that will never be won.

For there are scriptures that support osas. ( Scriptures that speak of ones who are and stay true in obedience to our Lord )


Scriptures that support salvation lost ( Falling away, departing from the faith, sheep who gets lost that needs to be brought back, and so on )

Those who don't stay true "in obedience to our Lord" are sometimes called a backslider.

The word “backslider” or “backsliding” does not appear in the New Testament and is used in the Old Testament primarily of Israel. The Jews, though they were God’s chosen people, continually turned their backs on Him and rebelled against His Word (Jeremiah 8:9). That is why they were forced to make sacrifices for sin over and over in order to restore their relationship with the God they had offended. The Christian, however, has availed himself of the perfect, once-and-for-all sacrifice of Christ and needs no further sacrifice for his sin. God himself has obtained our salvation for us (2 Corinthians 5:21) and because we are saved by Him, a true Christian cannot fall away so as not to return.

Christians do sin (1 John 1:8), but the Christian life is not to be identified by a life of sin. Believers are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). We have the Holy Spirit in us producing good fruit (Galatians 5:22-23). A Christian life should be a changed life. Christians are forgiven no matter how many times they sin, but at the same time Christians should live a progressively more holy life as they grow closer to Christ. We should have serious doubts about a person who claims to be a believer yet lives a life that says otherwise. Yes, a true Christian who falls back into sin (a backslider) is still saved, but at the same time a person who lives a life controlled by sin is not truly a Christian.

Read more: Is a backsliding Christian still saved?​

Read more: Is a backsliding Christian still saved?​

 

[BlackPlatypus]

Please keep in mind that the warnings to the church need to be applied to each heart as the Holy Spirit knows each heart, as to its salvation or not saved. We can not know fully the souls condition with God. So, we preach to the end of the ongoing salvation of the person and exhort for each one to go on with God to the salvation of their soul. a little doubt is good for all. Love to all, Hoffco

Doubt is impossible for the born again Christian. How does one doubt they carry the holy spirit inside them when they've given their life to Christ? It would be like having been in the open sea drowning, and a hand suddenly reaches down, lifts you up and sets you to dry land. Do you doubt you're there? That that is a better spot to be in? If so, you'd rather be back at sea. Because you doubt dry land is ideal given the alternative you question as a plausible option.
We're also not to encourage doubt when we're charged with spreading the good news.

Hey folks, you're a sinner destined to Hell if you don't accept Jesus as your personal savior. In which case, if you do repent and are born again, you'll live forever in heaven and have eternal life surrounded by peace and the love of God.
Sorta. Maybe you'll want to think about that. Take your time weight your options. Could be that's not true. Hell is fire, brimstone, suffering, eternal thirst, and pain that does not subside ever. Heaven is paradise.
Think about it. Or, doubt the whole thing and take your chances after you're dead. (does a little dance

)
[h=3]Jude 1:22 And have mercy on those who doubt[/h]

 

[BlackPlatypus]

Gal 1:12 what Paul preached was from Christ.

The apostles preaching was the same as Christ preaching Eph 2:17.

Paul's epistles are letters directed to the churches which he founded and managed.

Jesus was not a Christian. Nor did he say he came to found a religion or Christianity. Paul spoke in personal terms, "I", etc...
If you wish to argue what Jesus said, post the scripture wherein Jesus said it. Don't post excerpts from epistles, letters, that Paul of Tarsus wrote when he was a man who never knew Jesus while he was alive in his earthly ministry.

 

[Atwood]

Paul's epistles are letters directed to the churches which he founded and managed.

Yes, as directed by the Lord & as an apostle of Christ.

Jesus was not a Christian. Nor did he say he came to found a religion or Christianity.

What is your proof of that, O Plat?

Paul spoke in personal terms, "I", etc...

Well, the etc. reduces that statement to no meaning. If you think you can prove that Paul was not a prophet and apostle, let's see the proof. Peter calls Paul's letters scripture. You reckon ol Pete was all wet?

If you wish to argue what Jesus said, post the scripture wherein Jesus said it.

Do you have some scripture that the Lord Jesus personally wrote? Why should anyone follow your orders? Don't you think that some persons here pray & get guidance from the Lord on what to post & don't care for your orders?

Don't post excerpts from epistles, letters, that Paul of Tarsus wrote when he was a man who never knew Jesus while he was alive in his earthly ministry.

What is your proof of that?

Does the following describe you?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: 21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, . . .

Rom. 1:24
Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: 25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


Rom. 1:26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.


Rom. 1:28
And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful: 32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.


Rom. 2:1
Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. 3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
. . .
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Atwood]

Doubt is impossible for the born again Christian.

What is your proof of that one Plat?

Tell me O Plat, does your spirit in you confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh?

Hey folks, you're a sinner destined to Hell if you don't accept Jesus as your personal savior.

Where does the Bible say that? Where does it say to accept?

 

[Atwood]

Attn Those Denying the Savior, Making Him a Chance-Giver

Why not stop arguing, stop focusing on this or that scripture where save, Savior, & Salvation do not occur? Where receiving eternal life does not occur?

When will you get it through the noggin that salvation is about a Savior giving help to wicked sinners who have no good works? It is about "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Is it not the height of folly to keep going on about having to have good works, when you have none, since your never got started with trusting the Savior with your eternal destiny? Yet you want to play church or pretend you are a Christian and can tell God's children about it.

Is it not the height of folly to go on & on, claiming that this or that passage says people lose salvation, when that is not even a topic in the Bible (except as negated), and since you have never been saved at all to begin with? Yet not being saved, never having trusted Christ as Savior, yet you want to pontificate how believers are not secure in their salvation. You pontificate on losing salvation, when you have never been saved, & have not got a clue about being a Child of God.

Why not stop opposing yourself with nonsense, repenting of reducing the Savior to "chance-giver," and actually trusting the Lord Jesus as your Savior?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

As Micah says,
" You will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea."

ps 34
Jehovah redeems the soul of his servants;
And none of them who take refuge in him shall be condemned.

Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Col 3
When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then you also with him shall be manifested in glory.

2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace,

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

< 1 Pet 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and
I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

< 2 Tim 4:18
The Lord will deliver me from every evil work, and will save me unto his heavenly kingdom;

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

We have the author & perfecter of our faith for a Savior.

 

[SeaBass]

Once you believe in the only begotten Son of God - Jesus Christ - you are born again. You are BORN of God's Spirit. You cannot become UNBORN . . . been through this before. I really don't care if you say we are no longer sealed whenever we fail or sin - God says through scripture that we are sealed until the day of redemption. God says what he means and means what he says.

The devils believed and tremble but were not born again. Jn 12:42 chief priests believed but were not born again.
Born again = water baptism.

The group Christian is sealed to the day of redemption and if one falls away from that group he is no longer sealed.
Not a single individual is sealed unconditionally apart from the group.

I don't see what Genesis 4:7 has to do with anything. We are born of the flesh - we are born of the Spirit. In the flesh is no good thing - that is our sinful nature the flesh. We are partakers of the divine nature - being born again of the Spirit is our NEW nature, the divine nature. It is that NEW nature that is righteous before God.

Gen 4:7 shows man can choose between doing well or not well so man does not have a nature to where he can only choose to do not well.

Romans 8:28 is speaking to Christians - I am a Christian so it is speaking to me. For whom - whom is the individual in that group - he did foreknow - he knew before hand that I would believe - and those, EACH of us who believe are predestined to be conformed into the image of his Son. God doesn't even lay anything to the charge of his elect. [v.33] Jesus Christ does not condemn us - he sits at the right hand of God making intercession for us. v.35-39 Are things that can not separate us from the love of Christ. God forgives ALL iniquities and crowns us with lovingkindness and tender mercies. He does not deal with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities - For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear [reverence] him - (How high are the heavens?) As far as the east is from the west so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. God sees us as perfect through the Spirit by which we have been born again - that's how we stand righteous, justified, sanctified in his presence. Do we get discouraged? Yes - but I know of no one that has gotten so discouraged that they give up and even if they do God still loves those that are his! If someone gives up they still are sealed until the day of redemption - Once someone is born again of the Spirit; they are born again - you cannot become UNBORN! - until the day of redemption. Nothing can change what that verse says.

Rom 8:28 is speaking about the group, not any certain individual apart from the group. So it is the group that is predestined for no individual is predestined. Therefore each individual must choose of his own will to be in the predestined group or not. If one falls from the group he then falls from the predestined.

Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You say Christ does not condemn but condemnation is CONDITIONAL. One must be in the group that is conditionally IN CHRIST and that conditionally walks after the spirit. Therefore if one falls away from the group/away from Christ and starts walking after the flesh he then will be condemned.

Rev 2:10 "... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Salvation will be only for those Christians that remain faithful, the unfaithful will not receive the crown of life.

In Rev 2, the church at Ephesus that was sealed in Eph 1:13 are now fallen, left their first love and would have their candlestick removed if they did not CONDITIONALLY repent. No repentance by he church = lost.

Jude 1:20-24 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. . . .(22 have compassion on some 23 and others save with fear pulling them out of the fire - unbelievers) 24 - Now unto HIM that is ABLE to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. It is God that keeps me from falling and it is God that presents me faultless!!!!!!

I do want to say that we need to spend time with God and stay in the Word of God - that is what strengthens us and encourages us in our daily walk.

No need for the command to stay in the love of God if it were impossible to not to remain in the love of God.

Jude 1:24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling..."

This phrase implies one can fall. Jude had already warned them about being led away by false teachers, verse 3.

Verse 5 Jude reminds them how God destroyed some of His chosen people, the Israelites, who believed not but worshipped idols.

Verse 6 Jude reminds them of angels that fell from the first estate, heaven. (See also 2 Pet 2:4)

Verses 7,8 Jude warns God will punish those that disobey Him.

Jude gave examples of apostasy, the Israelites verse 5, the angels that rebelled, v6, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. In v8 Jude compared the filthy dreamers, Gnostic false teachers as apostates compared to Michael who did not being a railing accusation.

V21 Jude warns them about falling, becoming apostates so commands them to keep themselves in the love of God.

V24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling....God works in those that obey Hm, Phil 1:5,6 so those that do as God says by walking in the light, 1 Jn 1:7, God guards them from stumbling.

"..... able to keep you from falling..." Those that obey God then God is ABLE to keep the from falling > God does not for CERTAIN keep them from falling unconditionally.

 

[SeaBass]

Paul's epistles are letters directed to the churches which he founded and managed.

Jesus was not a Christian. Nor did he say he came to found a religion or Christianity. Paul spoke in personal terms, "I", etc...
If you wish to argue what Jesus said, post the scripture wherein Jesus said it. Don't post excerpts from epistles, letters, that Paul of Tarsus wrote when he was a man who never knew Jesus while he was alive in his earthly ministry.

Col 1:18 the body is the church, the group Christian.
Eph 5:23 Christ is the Saviour of the body.

These words Paul spoke in Col 1:18 and Eph 5:23 were give to him by revelation of Christ. So it was actually Christ speaking those words.

Therefore it is Christ that is saying only those that are conditionally in the group/body/church are saved.

 

[newbirth]

Paul's epistles are letters directed to the churches which he founded and managed.

Jesus was not a Christian. Nor did he say he came to found a religion or Christianity. Paul spoke in personal terms, "I", etc...
If you wish to argue what Jesus said, post the scripture wherein Jesus said it. Don't post excerpts from epistles, letters, that Paul of Tarsus wrote when he was a man who never knew Jesus while he was alive in his earthly ministry.

Same can be said of the OT writers but we believe them anyway......And what of Mark and Luke ? Did they see Jesus in the flesh? This is the beginning of Luke account....clearly he did not know Christ in the flesh


Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[SUP][a][/SUP] among us, [SUP]2 [/SUP]just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. [SUP]3 [/SUP]With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, [SUP]4 [/SUP]so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The devils believed and tremble but were not born again. Jn 12:42 chief priests believed but were not born again.
Born again = water baptism.

The group Christian is sealed to the day of redemption and if one falls away from that group he is no longer sealed.
Not a single individual is sealed unconditionally apart from the group.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:9,10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
At the very moment a person confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead, he is 'born again' and receives the gift of holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of everlasting life. Our New Birth via the spirit of God is just as irreversible as our first birth was. [That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.] It cannot be undone. The 'seal' upon each individual is Christ's seal of ownership, which is a deposit or a guarantee of what is to come - eternal/everlasting life.

Gen 4:7 shows man can choose between doing well or not well so man does not have a nature to where he can only choose to do not well.

No matter how hard we try we are going to sin and make mistakes because of our being human, because of our sin nature or because we lack wisdom, etc. Romans 7:14 on shows how we want to practice what is good but it's not in us to do good. [that is in our flesh is no good thing] Our sins are no surprise to God. Our sin nature does not change.

Your response: Man has no sin nature, Gen 4:7.

It seems that we do have two natures referred to and compared to in scripture as - old man/new man; flesh/Spirit.

Rom 8:28 is speaking about the group, not any certain individual apart from the group. So it is the group that is predestined for no individual is predestined. Therefore each individual must choose of his own will to be in the predestined group or not. If one falls from the group he then falls from the predestined.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus . . Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings [us - Christians meaning each individual Christian] in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us [us - Christians as in each individual Christian] in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predesitnated us [us - Christians as in each individual Christian] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us [us - Christians as in each individual Christian] accepted in the beloved.

Rom 8:1 "

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You say Christ does not condemn but condemnation is CONDITIONAL. One must be in the group that is conditionally IN CHRIST and that conditionally walks after the spirit. Therefore if one falls away from the group/away from Christ and starts walking after the flesh he then will be condemned.

Nope, I did not say Christ does not condemn - God did and he said it without conditions - 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us? How is one condemned? John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rev 2:10 "

... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Salvation will be only for those Christians that remain faithful, the unfaithful will not receive the crown of life.

In Rev 2, the church at Ephesus that was sealed in Eph 1:13 are now fallen, left their first love and would have their candlestick removed if they did not CONDITIONALLY repent. No repentance by he church = lost.

Salvation is for those who: confess with thy mouth the lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rev. 2:10 is speaking of 'rewards' received - if your works are burned you will receive loss of rewards but you yourself will be saved.

No need for the command to stay in the love of God if it were impossible to not to remain in the love of God.

Jude 1:24 "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling..."

This phrase implies one can fall. Jude had already warned them about being led away by false teachers, verse 3.

Jude 1,2 - Salutation. 3 - exhorting to contend for the faith which was delivered unto the saints - fight for the faith, fight for the Word of God which was preached unto the saints, fight against the adversaries - 4-13, 15,16 18,19 - unbelievers having not the Spirit. We have a relationship with God that is compared to a 'walk'. When we walk sometimes we stumble, sometimes we fall - But we have God who is able [willing, powerful and strong] to hold us up. God is our Father - when we are born again He is there walking with us - He is there holding our hands as we do our children. And we pick them up when they fall because we are 'bigger' than they are . . . that is God, our heavenly Father.

Verse 5 Jude reminds them how God destroyed some of His chosen people, the Israelites, who believed not but worshipped idols.

destroyed them that believed not And just one notable fact - the Israelites were not born again of God's Spirit

Verse 6 Jude reminds them of angels that fell from the first estate, heaven. (See also 2 Pet 2:4)

By their own choice these angels did not keep their first estate - created beings not born again of God's Spirit [Gen. 6]

Verses 7,8 Jude warns God will punish those that disobey Him.

Jude gave examples of apostasy, the Israelites verse 5, the angels that rebelled, v6, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. In v8 Jude compared the filthy dreamers, Gnostic false teachers as apostates compared to Michael who did not being a railing accusation.

v10 - but these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves - again these are unbelievers v.15 to execute judgment upon all and to convince all that are ungodly v19 These by they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. So, the warning is to those who do not believe and do not have the Spirit; i.e. not born again of the Spirit.