OSAS supporters, explain these, if you will please.

[BlackPlatypus]

Sister, Paul as Peter stated is not easy to understand, yet Peter and all the Apostles gave him the right hand of fellowship

That's not true.
Even Paul admitted that.1 Corinthians 9:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me.

Galatians 2, written by Paul, tells us he went round and round with the actual Disciples of Christ.
And 2nd Peter was determined by scholars long ago to be a forgery. Written long after Peter died. 2nd Peter.

 

[newbirth]

That's not true.
Even Paul admitted that.1 Corinthians 9:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me.

Galatians 2, written by Paul, tells us he went round and round with the actual Disciples of Christ.
And 2nd Peter was determined by scholars long ago to be a forgery. Written long after Peter died. 2nd Peter.

[SUP]8 [/SUP](For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

 

[weakness]

To begin with, God does just love you, period a fact beyond many others recognition.
For while we all were yet failures in being perfect ever from Adam on to this very day, God came in the body of Son, to redeem us as if we are perfect, even though we all know we aren’t.
But this world has denied this sovereignty of God through Christ, by trying to be perfect after belief, and by this trying one can’t.
Brother my health is at its end as well, and that is not easy to accept, until maybe you can see that when your time comes, you will no longer be in an unredeemed flesh body that you are in now that gets sick.
I was 1 year and 10 months ago, in surgery, was not expected to live, and even said I am ready to go, and was, ready, yet I made it through this surgery, went to a wheel chair, to a walker to a cane. Now walking, and some other problems still hanging around to buffet me maybe? I do not know for sure.
But I do know this now, that whatever is, is. When I could not accept it is what it is, I never could heal at all, I was toooooooooo busy with not wanting what is to not be what is. So when I accepted and willing to stay in a wheel chair, I amazingly got out of it, and have been healing to the best of the ability this body that is dying since first birth can.
Reality Friend, we all physically die, 100% and there is no improvement in sight is there?
But we can live here and now in Spirit and truth as in
John 4:24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
[/QUOTE i did not mean to misrepresent my health status, I am really at peace about so many things ,but was just asking for prayer. Sometime I sleep 24 ,30 even 48 hours Its hard to come back some times ,I feel like Im in Gods Presence ,Its really hard to explain so different from anything I could ever have imagined, I feel I have a choice to come back or not, and as paul said It is better to be with the lord Not sure your point???? but thanks for talking. What gave you the impression I think that God only loves me? I evened mention the fact that I question the point of us each having a different manifestation of Christ and there for a possible differ understanding in non critical points,Basically I think the divisive nature of conversation, if they can even be called that sometimes,That they are so ungodly and hurtful ,that being expressed by innumerable People here at different times , But some believe the squeaky wheel gets the grease Cant shut up. the above saying being true eventually the wheel is Removed, any way hope you feel the love of God in your fleshly suffering

 

[BlackPlatypus]

Saul's "conversion" (3 different accounts) Acts 9:1-19; retold in Acts 22:6-21 and Acts 26:12-18.

Paul wrote Galatians. Galatians 2 has Paul admitting he proclaimed himself as an apostle and it took him 14 years to approach any of the actual Disciples of Christ so as to obtain their approval.

And then there's Paul's letters to the church of Corinth in 2Corinthians 13.

[SUP]8 [/SUP](For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

 

[Atwood]

Saul's "conversion" (3 different accounts) Acts 9:1-19; retold in Acts 22:6-21 and Acts 26:12-18.

And they all agree.

Paul wrote Galatians. Galatians 2 has Paul admitting he proclaimed himself as an apostle and it took him 14 years to approach any of the actual Disciples of Christ so as to obtain their approval.

False. The text says no such things.

And then there's Paul's letters to the church of Corinth in 2Corinthians 13.

So what?

I don't believe that either you or I am worthy to tie Paul's shoe laces. I warn you that by insulting Christ's apostle, He may well take it as an insult to Himself.

I believe the Word of God; I do not believe you, Platypus:

3 And as he journeyed, it came to pass that he drew nigh unto Damascus: and suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven: 4 and he fell upon the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: 6 but rise, and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men that journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing the voice, but beholding no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw nothing; and they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and did neither eat nor drink.


Acts 9:10
Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and the Lord said unto him in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go to the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one named Saul, a man of Tarsus: for behold, he prayeth; 12 and he hath seen a man named Ananias coming in, and laying his hands on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 But Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many of this man, how much evil he did to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14 and here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call upon thy name. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my name’s sake. 17 And Ananias departed, and entered into the house; and laying his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared unto thee in the way which thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mayest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. 18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened.



And he was certain days with the disciples that were at Damascus.
20 And straightway in the synagogues he proclaimed Jesus, that he is the Son of God. 21 And all that heard him were amazed, and said, Is not this he that in Jerusalem made havoc of them that called on this name? and he had come hither for this intent, that he might bring them bound before the chief priests. 22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews that dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is the Christ.


Acts 9:23
And when many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel together to kill him: 24 but their plot became known to Saul. And they watched the gates also day and night that they might kill him: 25 but his disciples took him by night, and let him down through the wall, lowering him in a basket


Acts 9:26
And when he was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: and they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. 28 And he was with them going in and going out at Jerusalem, 29 preaching boldly in the name of the Lord: and he spake and disputed against the Grecian Jews; but they were seeking to kill him. 30 And when the brethren knew it, they brought him down to Caesarea, and sent him forth to Tarsus.


the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 They therefore, being brought on their way by the church, passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them. . . .


Peter rose up, and said unto them, . . .

And all the multitude kept silence; and they hearkened unto Barnabas and Paul rehearsing what signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles through them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, . . .

Acts 15:22
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting: . . . it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also shall tell you the same things by word of mouth. . . .


So they, when they were dismissed, came down to Antioch; and having gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle. 31 And when they had read it, they rejoiced for the consolation. . . . 35 But Paul and Barnabas tarried in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

 

[newbirth]

Saul's "conversion" (3 different accounts) Acts 9:1-19; retold in Acts 22:6-21 and Acts 26:12-18.

Paul wrote Galatians. Galatians 2 has Paul admitting he proclaimed himself as an apostle and it took him 14 years to approach any of the actual Disciples of Christ so as to obtain their approval.

And then there's Paul's letters to the church of Corinth in 2Corinthians 13.

You see Paul as a fake I see him rebuking Peter for double standards.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Paul was not looking for approval he said he wanted to be sure he was sharing the same message as they...
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

I am not sure what you have against Paul ,,,but if we cannot hear Paul why should I hear you...If God can minister to me through you...which he did...Then I am convinced he Used Paul. If you have doubts that God can preserve his word how can you believe he can preserve you?

 

[homwardbound]

If that is what you feel you need to believe. But it isn't supported by scripture.

One day, you will see as God grows you up in Maturity, ad I am not saying you are not mature, you know this and God
Hebrews 5:11- 6:6

 

[homwardbound]

That's not true.
Even Paul admitted that.1 Corinthians 9:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me.

Galatians 2, written by Paul, tells us he went round and round with the actual Disciples of Christ.
And 2nd Peter was determined by scholars long ago to be a forgery. Written long after Peter died. 2nd Peter.

Galatians 2:9
and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

 

[homwardbound]

To begin with, God does just love you, period a fact beyond many others recognition.
For while we all were yet failures in being perfect ever from Adam on to this very day, God came in the body of Son, to redeem us as if we are perfect, even though we all know we aren’t.
But this world has denied this sovereignty of God through Christ, by trying to be perfect after belief, and by this trying one can’t.
Brother my health is at its end as well, and that is not easy to accept, until maybe you can see that when your time comes, you will no longer be in an unredeemed flesh body that you are in now that gets sick.
I was 1 year and 10 months ago, in surgery, was not expected to live, and even said I am ready to go, and was, ready, yet I made it through this surgery, went to a wheel chair, to a walker to a cane. Now walking, and some other problems still hanging around to buffet me maybe? I do not know for sure.
But I do know this now, that whatever is, is. When I could not accept it is what it is, I never could heal at all, I was toooooooooo busy with not wanting what is to not be what is. So when I accepted and willing to stay in a wheel chair, I amazingly got out of it, and have been healing to the best of the ability this body that is dying since first birth can.
Reality Friend, we all physically die, 100% and there is no improvement in sight is there?
But we can live here and now in Spirit and truth as in
John 4:24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
[/QUOTE i did not mean to misrepresent my health status, I am really at peace about so many things ,but was just asking for prayer. Sometime I sleep 24 ,30 even 48 hours Its hard to come back some times ,I feel like Im in Gods Presence ,Its really hard to explain so different from anything I could ever have imagined, I feel I have a choice to come back or not, and as paul said It is better to be with the lord Not sure your point???? but thanks for talking. What gave you the impression I think that God only loves me? I evened mention the fact that I question the point of us each having a different manifestation of Christ and there for a possible differ understanding in non critical points,Basically I think the divisive nature of conversation, if they can even be called that sometimes,That they are so ungodly and hurtful ,that being expressed by innumerable People here at different times , But some believe the squeaky wheel gets the grease Cant shut up. the above saying being true eventually the wheel is Removed, any way hope you feel the love of God in your fleshly suffering

Thanks, I do 24/7, and I was not saying God only loves you or that you said that

Romans 3:25
whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1 John 2:2
and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 

[homwardbound]

Saul's "conversion" (3 different accounts) Acts 9:1-19; retold in Acts 22:6-21 and Acts 26:12-18.

Paul wrote Galatians. Galatians 2 has Paul admitting he proclaimed himself as an apostle and it took him 14 years to approach any of the actual Disciples of Christ so as to obtain their approval.

And then there's Paul's letters to the church of Corinth in 2Corinthians 13.

Paul was missing for this time frame, e was being taught in Spirit and truth by God, or do you not see this?

 

[newbirth]

That's right. He didn't. Paul never knew the living Jesus. Meaning, Jesus in the flesh.

But he did meet the resurrected Jesus....did you meet him?

He didn't know Jesus at all. This is evident in his ministering when he speaks largely in first person. And very often contradicts all that the living Jesus taught in his ministry.

What are the contradictions ? You do not know Jesus at all and you are here giving counsel ......

you are trying to make divisions.....
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

 

[SeaBass]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Romans 10:9,10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
At the very moment a person confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead, he is 'born again' and receives the gift of holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of everlasting life. Our New Birth via the spirit of God is just as irreversible as our first birth was. [That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.] It cannot be undone. The 'seal' upon each individual is Christ's seal of ownership, which is a deposit or a guarantee of what is to come - eternal/everlasting life.

Water baptism is the new birth.

Jn 3:5-------spirit+++++born of water>>>>>in the kingdom/saved
1Cor12:13--spirit++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body/saved

No matter how hard we try we are going to sin and make mistakes because of our being human, because of our sin nature or because we lack wisdom, etc. Romans 7:14 on shows how we want to practice what is good but it's not in us to do good. [that is in our flesh is no good thing] Our sins are no surprise to God. Our sin nature does not change.

Your response: Man has no sin nature, Gen 4:7.

It seems that we do have two natures referred to and compared to in scripture as - old man/new man; flesh/Spirit.

Man has no sin nature where he is only able to choose to sin. As God shows in Gen 4:7 man has the ability to choose to do well just as he can choose to not do well.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus . . Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings [us - Christians meaning each individual Christian] in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us [us - Christians as in each individual Christian] in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predesitnated us [us - Christians as in each individual Christian] unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us [us - Christians as in each individual Christian] accepted in the beloved.

Paul is addressing the group, the church, verse 1 the group Saints which are in Christ. No individual can be in Christ apart from the group.

Nope, I did not say Christ does not condemn - God did and he said it without conditions - 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us? How is one condemned? John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

My point is condemnation is CONDITIONAL therefore making salvation CONDITIONAL. To be saved one must be CONDITIONALLY a believer in Christ. If one casts aside his faith he is no longer conditionally in Christ and can then be condemned, Rom 8:1.

Salvation is for those who: confess with thy mouth the lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rev. 2:10 is speaking of 'rewards' received - if your works are burned you will receive loss of rewards but you yourself will be saved.

Rev 2:10 is about salvation, the crown of life for one cannot become UNfaithful yet still be saved.

Jude 1,2 - Salutation. 3 - exhorting to contend for the faith which was delivered unto the saints - fight for the faith, fight for the Word of God which was preached unto the saints, fight against the adversaries - 4-13, 15,16 18,19 - unbelievers having not the Spirit. We have a relationship with God that is compared to a 'walk'. When we walk sometimes we stumble, sometimes we fall - But we have God who is able [willing, powerful and strong] to hold us up. God is our Father - when we are born again He is there walking with us - He is there holding our hands as we do our children. And we pick them up when they fall because we are 'bigger' than they are . . . that is God, our heavenly Father.

Jude is warning his readers about falling into apostasy therefore the command to keep themselves in the love of God. Again, if being lost/falling into apostasy were impossible then none of what Jude says makes any sense.

God is ABLE to keep those that are faithful to Him from stumbling but God does not UNCONDITIONALLY GUARANTEE this to those that quit obeying Him.

1 Pet 1:5 "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Kept by God through faith. If one becomes unfaithful, he is no longer kept by God. Again, there are two sides to salvation:
1) man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man.

No verse says God is faithful in saving those that turn their back on Him in faithlessness. Both sides must occur yet Eternal Securists only want to look at verses that speak of God's faithfulness to man whilr not looking at verses that show man must be faithful to God.

destroyed them that believed not And just one notable fact - the Israelites were not born again of God's Spirit

Israel was in a saved, covenant relationship with God, God's elect, God's chosen yet those that disobeyed through unbelief became lost.

Psalms 51:11

By their own choice these angels did not keep their first estate - created beings not born again of God's Spirit [Gen. 6]

Rebelling angels became apostates falling from heaven, a saved state.

v10 - but these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves - again these are unbelievers v.15 to execute judgment upon all and to convince all that are ungodly v19 These by they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. So, the warning is to those who do not believe and do not have the Spirit; i.e. not born again of the Spirit.

"they corrupt themselves" v10
"separate themselves" v19

They were not always corrupt, always separated from God/the church but became that way by choice. How could they corrupt themselves and be separated from God if they were ALWAYS corrupt and always separated from God?

Infants are born in a innocent, saved state but as they mature learning right from wrong they corrupt themselves, separating themselves from God becoming lost.

As Paul points out in Eph 1, one who is sealed can grieve the HS as those did whom Jude speaks about. Therefore again the admonition/command for them to keep themselves in the love of God rather than corrupting themselves, separating themselves from God.

 

[SeaBass]

The problem here is that you impress into the discussion the things you find in yourself. Proverbs 10:12 Believers have no interest in living apart from Christ their beloved. Only when you see God's grace in the absolute purity of His love can you glimpse God's desire to give the gift of salvation unconditionally to those who are unconditionally unworthy.

An angry sea stirs up mire and dirt. Isa 57:20

For the cause of Christ
Roger

People choose to believe and therefore can also choose to quit believing therefore no verse says salvation is given UN-conditionally.

 

[SeaBass]

He, Yeshua, went to the cross for all and died for all sins of mankind, that part is done.
Yet not all have new life, an that is what is left to get here today, in the resurrected life of Yeshua, in Spirit and truth
Saved by the risen life not by the death. Death was needed to put us in presence of Father where we are made as if we are perfect, to get the free gift of new life from Father in Spirit and truth, thus loving all, as Christ loved us, and still does to this very day.
Do you get this?

Christ died for every man Heb 2:9 but every man will not be saved for every man will not obey Heb 5:9 thereby not taking advantage of what Christ did for them.

 

[SeaBass]

seabass, bless you to come to what is needed for you if anything is needed, and the same for me and all the rest of us

It sounds like you are special, what group? please tell me what denomination you belong to, and if you leave it you are condemned?
I surely do not want to be condemned, so what Church am I to attend to be a part of the group you are speaking of?

The group is CHRISTIAN which is the only saved group the NT talks about and says nothing about any denominational group.

 

[SeaBass]

Are you COC

church of Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

Who is this Church you keep speaking of?

Christ's church, His one body, Eph 4:4

 

[SeaBass]

So it's " group Christian" tell me please where is the true (Church) Tabernacle at?

Group Christian = the one church

 

[BlackPlatypus]

And they all agree.

No, they don't.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

you are trying to make divisions.....
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Perfect scripture to show the false teachings of Paul and his agenda to deceive.

Christians either follow Jesus, who did not found Christianity, or they follow Paul, who manufactured what came to be called Christianity but was actually Paulianity. Those believers are Pauline. Not Christian. Jesus wasn't Christian. God isn't Christian. "They" were first called Christian in Antioch. This was long after Jesus had departed back to the Father.

Jesus warned against Paul. Paul fulfilled the warning Jesus made about him and others like him prior to returning to the father.
To follow Paul is to call Jesus a liar. It's simple as that.