Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I



1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth



God wants ALL to be saved, and yet, only predestines some to be saved. I understand that God can want something to happen and yet let something else happen.


Also, I understand that the concept of "fairness" doesn't apply here, as, if God were to be completely fair, all would go to hell and none would be saved. God has given a gift to those he has chosen.


What I don't understand is, how can the unsaved not be predestined to hell, if the saved, or elect, are predestined to be saved?

1 Tim. 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who WILL have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." KJV.

It does not say 'want' it says 'will', we know that all men will not be saved, because not all men will confess Christ and believe the Gospel, so is this a contradiction? No, how do we read this? Well God's WILL is the factor in the salvation of all men, no man comes to the Son lest the Father draw him, this is what Jesus said.

How do I know the word is 'will' and not 'wants', because Paul uses the same Greek word in 1 Tim. 2:8 "I WILL therefore that men pray everywhere." or go to Rom. 1:10 " a prosperous journey by the WILL of God to come unto you."

Most good English translations have it this way, whatever translation you quoted is incorrect, it should read that God wills all men to be saved, which is true, He does will all men to be saved, when saved this is by the will of God, according to His goodwill and pleasure.

 

[FixYourWeave]

I believe he wants us all to be saved, but he knows who will and wont accept him right. He knew before we were born what choices we were going to make. And he has given us the free will to decide weather or not we are going to accept him. He could change a sinner instantly, he could cause one who is on the wrong path to turn to him, however he doesnt do this with everyone obviously. So i believe he predestines some to go to hell and some to heaven. Did that make any sense to you??

 

[Sharp]

1 Tim. 2:3-4 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who WILL have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." KJV.

It does not say 'want' it says 'will', we know that all men will not be saved, because not all men will confess Christ and believe the Gospel, so is this a contradiction? No, how do we read this? Well God's WILL is the factor in the salvation of all men, no man comes to the Son lest the Father draw him, this is what Jesus said.

How do I know the word is 'will' and not 'wants', because Paul uses the same Greek word in 1 Tim. 2:8 "I WILL therefore that men pray everywhere." or go to Rom. 1:10 " a prosperous journey by the WILL of God to come unto you."

Most good English translations have it this way, whatever translation you quoted is incorrect, it should read that God wills all men to be saved, which is true, He does will all men to be saved, when saved this is by the will of God, according to His goodwill and pleasure.

Ok then, so how does God will that all men be saved, but predestine only some to be saved?

 

[Sharp]

I believe he wants us all to be saved, but he knows who will and wont accept him right. He knew before we were born what choices we were going to make. And he has given us the free will to decide weather or not we are going to accept him. He could change a sinner instantly, he could cause one who is on the wrong path to turn to him, however he doesnt do this with everyone obviously. So i believe he predestines some to go to hell and some to heaven. Did that make any sense to you??

Not really, sorry....

Most of your post talked about free will and making choices, then at the end, you said people are predestined to heaven and hell. I don't get it....

 

[FixYourWeave]

Look basically if god wanted us all to go to heaven he could make it happen, however he doesnt.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I believe he wants us all to be saved, but he knows who will and wont accept him right. He knew before we were born what choices we were going to make. And he has given us the free will to decide weather or not we are going to accept him. He could change a sinner instantly, he could cause one who is on the wrong path to turn to him, however he doesnt do this with everyone obviously. So i believe he predestines some to go to hell and some to heaven. Did that make any sense to you??

It says 'God WILL have all men to be saved', I don't know what Bible translations people are using but all my Bibles say WILL, none of them say 'wants', that would be an incorrect translation, the word that Paul uses is Thelo. Now Thelo means to intend or purpose by will, mean it to happen, will it to happen, God in Koine Greek is Theos, again we see that Thelo is an action of God's own will, this is what the word means by it's own definition, now it can have a secondary meaning of wishes or desires, but it not in a human sense originally and it's not the primary meaning, the primary meaning is the purposeful intention of God's will, and this signifies deliberate action, premeditated deliberate action, which agrees with predestination.

 

[FixYourWeave]

It says 'God WILL have all men to be saved', I don't know what Bible translations people are using but all my Bibles say WILL, none of them say 'wants', that would be an incorrect translation, the word that Paul uses is Thelo. Now Thelo means to intend or purpose by will, mean it to happen, will it to happen, God in Koine Greek is Theos, again we see that Thelo is an action of God's own will, this is what the word means by it's own definition, now it can have a secondary meaning of wishes or desires, but it not in a human sense originally and it's not the primary meaning, the primary meaning is the purposeful intention of God's will, and this signifies deliberate action, premeditated deliberate action, which agrees with predestination.

I dont think you read my disclaimer, so i wont have anything else furthur to add to this discussion.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Ok then, so how does God will that all men be saved, but predestine only some to be saved?

Will has a meaning of deliberate action, and the Greek word Thelos, relates to God Theos, His will, God knowing all thing from the beginning, no man comes to the Son lest the Father draw him, a man is willed by God to come to Christ, according to His own goodwill and pleasure. What Paul is emphazising is God's Will as the determining factor in the salvation of ALL men. If you are saved it is because God willed it, which agrees with predestination, Jesus says 'Ye did not choose Me, but it was I who chose you'.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I dont think you read my disclaimer, so i wont have anything else furthur to add to this discussion.

I was only correcting the word for you, so you would understand, would you prefer not to understand?

 

[FixYourWeave]

I was only correcting the word for you, so you would understand, would you prefer not to understand?

i would prefer you to read what i wrote before you respond. However if you feel it is your job to correct everyone.. be my guest, have at it.

 

[Buddee]

Who is it that God doesn't foreknow??

 

[Definition_Christ]

It says 'God WILL have all men to be saved', I don't know what Bible translations people are using but all my Bibles say WILL, none of them say 'wants', that would be an incorrect translation, the word that Paul uses is Thelo. Now Thelo means to intend or purpose by will, mean it to happen, will it to happen, God in Koine Greek is Theos, again we see that Thelo is an action of God's own will, this is what the word means by it's own definition, now it can have a secondary meaning of wishes or desires, but it not in a human sense originally and it's not the primary meaning, the primary meaning is the purposeful intention of God's will, and this signifies deliberate action, premeditated deliberate action, which agrees with predestination.

That means it is His will is all men are to be saved And you don't understand how much you are contradicting yourself here. If you were truly predestined to go to heaven. What are you saved from? You make no sense at all claiming to be "saved". You were saved from what? You were never "in danger of going to hell", according to your doctrine? Because you claim you were predestined to go to heaven. So besides that contradiction....

The NKJV picks it up on the correct translation and says;
1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It's His will, His desire. "His will(s) all men be saved".. Let me quote the Strong's here...

θέλω, ἐθέλω
thelō ethelō

Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).

 

[watchmen]

Not familiar with those doctrines. It's funny actually Calvinists will call me an Arminian but I know Calvinist doctrines better than Arminian lol. As a matter of fact I've never studied into Arminian doctrines. I know they believe salvation is based purely on man. Which I do not agree with. The Father draws us to Yeshua, no doubt about that....

Actually you should study it before making such statements. Arminians do not believe Salvation is based solely on man. As you have stated John 6 makes it clear no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. The thing is I believe God draws All men as Christ said He would.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Also as many OSAS believer/Calvinist state We are saved by Grace through faith not of ourselves. There is not one Arminian that will tell you salvation is based on man. However as you yourself stated God does not force Himself on us He give us Choice, and we either choose to reject or accept salvation that is the doctrine of conditional election. The elect are those God knew would choose salvation.

 

[Sharp]

Actually you should study it before making such statements. Arminians do not believe Salvation is based solely on man. As you have stated John 6 makes it clear no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. The thing is I believe God draws All men as Christ said He would.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Also as many OSAS believer/Calvinist state We are saved by Grace through faith not of ourselves. There is not one Arminian that will tell you salvation is based on man. However as you yourself stated God does not force Himself on us He give us Choice, and we either choose to reject or accept salvation that is the doctrine of conditional election. The elect are those God knew would choose salvation.

Watchmen, just out of curiousity, would you call yourself Arminian.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

That means it is His will is all men are to be saved And you don't understand how much you are contradicting yourself here.

It is His will that all men be saved, I am not contradicting myself.

If you were truly predestined to go to heaven. What are you saved from? You make no sense at all claiming to be "saved". You were saved from what? You were never "in danger of going to hell",

Not if your predestinated, No, there is no danger of Hell.

according to your doctrine? Because you claim you were predestined to go to heaven. So besides that contradiction....

No according to the Bible; "Having predestinated us unto adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" Eph. 1:5.

The NKJV picks it up on the correct translation and says;
1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It's His will, His desire. "His will(s) all men be saved".. Let me quote the Strong's here...

Thelo - to determine i.e. choose or prefer by implication to wish i.e. inclined - desire, be disposed forward, intend, list etc.

I cannot see any contradiction here, are you suggesting God is contradicting Himself?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Who is it that God doesn't foreknow??

Those that are not His.

 

[Definition_Christ]

It is His will that all men be saved, I am not contradicting myself.





Not if your predestinated, No, there is no danger of Hell.



No according to the Bible; "Having predestinated us unto adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" Eph. 1:5.



Thelo - to determine i.e. choose or prefer by implication to wish i.e. inclined - desire, be disposed forward, intend, list etc.


I cannot see any contradiction here, are you suggesting God is contradicting Himself?

#1 No but I see you contradicting yourself. You willingly admit if you are predestined there is no danger of Hell. So you what is your Savior saving you from?

#2 You completely missed the root of the two words. It is His will, He is willing all should be saved.

#3 You are preaching universalism by saying "all men" will be saved.

Ephesians 1:5 - He predestined those whom He foreknew (Romans 8:29). I think you misunderstand the whole concept of "foreknowledge".

Joshua 24
14 “Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD!
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Choosing whom we serves, sounds a bit like a choice. Doesn't it?

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

#1 No but I see you contradicting yourself. You willingly admit if you are predestined there is no danger of Hell. So you what is your Savior saving you from?

#2 You completely missed the root of the two words. It is His will, He is willing all should be saved.

#3 You are preaching universalism by saying "all men" will be saved.

Ephesians 1:5 - He predestined those whom He foreknew (Romans 8:29). I think you misunderstand the whole concept of "foreknowledge".

Joshua 24
14 “Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD!
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Choosing whom we serves, sounds a bit like a choice. Doesn't it?

We're not going to agree, you believe it is your own choice that saves you, you believe you are saved by your own descision, this would be your own will and desire, whereas I believe that is God's will that is responsible for a man's salvation, we contradict each other, one of us is correct and one of us is incorrect. And I never teach universal salvation, it's just that God's will is the factor in all men who are drawn to the Son by the Father.

 

[Definition_Christ]

We're not going to agree, you believe it is your own choice that saves you, you believe you are saved by your own descision, this would be your own will and desire, whereas I believe that is God's will that is responsible for a man's salvation, we contradict each other, one of us is correct and one of us is incorrect. And I never teach universal salvation, it's just that God's will is the factor in all men who are drawn to the Son by the Father.

I believe it's Yeshua alone who saves me. Okay I respect that, I will let it go and bite my tongue. (even though it doesn't say "all men who are drawn to the Son by the Father", it only says "all men")

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

I believe it's Yeshua alone who saves me. Okay I respect that, I will let it go and bite my tongue. (even though it doesn't say "all men who are drawn to the Son by the Father", it only says "all men")

Well that's right, you are saved by Jesus Christ, not of your own will, but by Grace, according to His will, we are dead until we are saved, God gives us a new heart, redeems us, gives us a renewed mind, leads us with a strong hand this is all His work.