Baptism Essential to Salvation

[newbirth]

Now see what you've done, newbirth. Now we have to start all over again. L

I call it as I see it ....If we agree on most points and I err in one will you not correct me?

 

[newbirth]

[SUP]

Abraham was before the law of Moses. Romans 4:3 - What does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him as righteousness. So what works did Paul mention here along with faith, which are not of the law, that were accounted to Abraham as righteousness?

[/SUP] What exactly did Abraham believe?

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. This is not limited to specific works of the law, but all works. If it was not all works, then Paul would have listed these works along with faith, but he never said works are accounted for righteousness, or saved through faith and works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Paul also said that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) and He saved us and called us not according to our works (2 Timothy 1:9). ALL works. Saved through faith, NOT WORKS. Crystal clear. [SUP]
[/SUP]In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

There are only two ways God had ordained to righteousness...the law of Moses ....and Faith in Christ...so when you see works it would be either works of the law or works of faith...just as the Israelites sought it not by faith...You are saying faith without works.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang ALL the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian accomplish that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? The works of the law (Paul) vs. good works not of the law (James) argument is bogus.

The Jews did not believe that they thought the ceremonies and sacrifices made them righteous.

James is not talking about those who actually have faith but refuse to do good works. In James 2:14, James did not say what good is it if a man actually has faith, but he refuses to do good works. NO! James said, what good is it if a man SAYS or CLAIMS he has faith, but he has no works. Can that faith save you? Where is the evidence that he really has faith? James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. I will SHOW you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. Big difference! Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root. A phrase that James could have coined is the absence of evidence could be construed as evidence of absence.

your argument does not stand against ...faith without works is dead...It says nothing about claims here just faith and works ...no works dead faith.

It was a demonstration of his faith which proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. Read the context from James 2:14. James is not using the word "justified" to mean that Abraham was finally accounted as righteous based on his works in Genesis 22, but was shown to be righteous. James is discussing the proof of faith (I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2,3).

If James were to ask you the question now...[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? what would be your answer?...yes or no

Again, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works and neither does Paul. James' concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. I will show you my faith by my works. SHOW, not establish. Big difference!

They both teach we are saved by grace through faith ..and faith without works is dead

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. See John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39.

works of righteous has to do with the law.

Notice the word CLAIMS to have faith but has no deeds. Also, can SUCH faith save them? What kind of faith is that? Dead faith that cannot save. What kind of faith saves us? Living faith that has been made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-10) and results in producing good works, demonstrating or showing that it's not a dead faith, but a living faith. Faith "by itself" (produces no good works) is not genuine living, saving, faith but an empty profession of faith (James 2:14).

Claim to have would imply they don't really have fair enough, but that has nothing to he who has faith. James did not say he who claims to have faith that faith without works is dead. He said faith without works is dead. you are twisting the word...Faith "by itself" (produces no good works).....the scripture does not say faith produces work ...It says faith without works is dead.

SHOW, not establish. Big difference!

establish what ?? your own righteousness? show your faith by your works

They believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ.

No they believe and shudder you believe and have no works

Notice that the NIV says Abraham was considered righteous for what what he did. There is a difference between Abraham being ACCOUNTED as righteous based on his faith (Romans 4:2-3) and being CONSIDERED righteous many years later based on his works (James 2:21).

Abraham was a believer and a worker

If we are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead...which does not sit well with some doctrine of men...so
they prefer to twist the word rather than face the truth

 

[Alligator]

Now see what you've done, newbirth. Now we have to start all over again. L

I call it as I see it ....If we agree on most points and I err in one will you not correct me?

Hey, lighten up. I was just kidding with you. My first post was incorrect nd I admitted it.

 

[rtfgirl]

No baptism is NOT mandatory to enter heaven. If that was true then the thief who was crucified next to Jesus would not have made it to heaven. But I think we all know what Jesus said to him!

 

[mailmandan]

What exactly did Abraham believe?

Genesis 15:5 - Then He (God) brought him (Abraham) outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be" and Abraham believed God and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3).

There are only two ways God had ordained to righteousness...the law of Moses ....and Faith in Christ...so when you see works it would be either works of the law or works of faith...just as the Israelites sought it not by faith...You are saying faith without works.

Which works of faith are completely detached from the moral aspect of the law found in the two great commandments? - Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. It is either works of the law (all of it) or faith. I am saying the same thing that Paul said. He said we are saved through faith, not works. Paul did not say that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8. Paul said that God imputes righteousness apart from works in Romans 4:6. Your misunderstanding of James 2 has caused you to believe that man is saved through faith and works.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Paul did not say faith and works here and he meant all of the law, moral aspect included, which means all good works.

The Jews did not believe that they thought the ceremonies and sacrifices made them righteous.

They still thought they were made righteous based on their works, just as many people today self righteously trust in works righteousness.

your argument does not stand against ...faith without works is dead...It says nothing about claims here just faith and works ...no works dead faith.

You need to understand faith without works is dead in context, including James 2:14. James clearly said claims to have faith but has no works. What is profession without possession? Empty profession. James is not saying that our faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes alive. Faith that produces no works demonstrates that it's dead just as faith that produces works demonstrates that it's alive. That is the whole point! What comes first? Living faith or works? Living tree or fruit? James 2 is a major stumbling block for those who cannot grasp that salvation is through faith and not by works.

If James were to ask you the question now...[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? what would be your answer?...yes or no

No. An empty profession of faith, a dead faith, is not a living faith. Notice again, says or claims he has faith.

They both teach we are saved by grace through faith ..and faith without works is dead

You have a hard time harmonizing this. Saved by grace through faith, not works, yet genuine faith produces good works. Dead faith - demonstrates that it's dead by producing no works. Living faith - demonstrates that it's alive by producing good works. That is how faith without works is dead.

works of righteous has to do with the law.

So genuine good works that Christians do are not works of righteousness but works of unrighteousness? What did Peter mean in Acts 10:35 - But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him? Does this have to do with the law? Did the Pharisees who were following the law produce genuine works of righteousness?

Claim to have would imply they don't really have fair enough,

Amen! You are starting to get it! Praise God!

but that has nothing to he who has faith. James did not say he who claims to have faith that faith without works is dead. He said faith without works is dead.

He who claims to have faith but has no works, demonstrates or SHOWS that he has an empty profession of faith, not genuine faith, faith without works is dead. See how this all fits together? Not saved by works, but genuine faith produces works.

you are twisting the word...Faith "by itself" (produces no good works).....the scripture does not say faith produces work ...It says faith without works is dead.

I am not twisting the word. Read it all together. Faith by itself, meaning it does not produce works, shows that it's a dead faith, not a living faith. You keep misinterpreting "faith without works is dead" to mean that works are the source of life in faith. This continues to be a stumbling block for you. Please tell me, does faith produce works or do works produce faith? Does a tree produce fruit or does fruit produce a tree?

If we are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead...which does not sit well with some doctrine of men...so they prefer to twist the word rather than face the truth

What is the harmony of "saved by grace through faith, not works and faith without works is dead?" It's NOT saved through faith and works. It's saved through faith, not works, yet genuine faith produces good works, a dead faith does not. I am not twisting the word, I am simply harmonizing scripture with scripture. Salvation by a dead faith is twisting the scripture and salvation by works is twisting the scripture.

establish what ?? your own righteousness? show your faith by your works

Establish faith. Faith is established first, made alive in Christ by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:5-9) then created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works. Notice the order. We SHOW our faith by our works. We don't establish our faith by our works. Faith is already established and alive in Christ before the works are produced just as a tree is already established and alive before it produces fruit. The source of life flows through the root and produces the fruit. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.

No they believe and shudder you believe and have no works

What makes you say I have no works? You are not qualified to make that judgment call. I believe and SHOW my faith by my works. My works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of my faith, but not the essence of my faith and not the means of my salvation.

Abraham was a believer and a worker

He was a worker as a result of being a believer.

If we are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead...which does not sit well with some doctrine of men...so they prefer to twist the word rather than face the truth

We are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, and faith without works is dead. Here is the balance that you keep missing. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* In other words, Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1,2); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple! Too simple! This does not sit well with the doctrine of men because the pride of man self righteously wants credit for salvation by works. PRIDE is the enemy!

 

[newbirth]

Genesis 15:5 - Then He (God) brought him (Abraham) outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be" and Abraham believed God and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3).

So according to your understanding just that one belief ...he never believed before nor did he believe after...Follow Abraham and see his life of (faith) belief in God.

Genesis 12
12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

You think it was there and then Abraham believed God...Abraham was believing God since he was called out of His country and his father's house ......

Which works of faith are completely detached from the moral aspect of the law found in the two great commandments? - Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. It is either works of the law (all of it) or faith. I am saying the same thing that Paul said. He said we are saved through faith, not works. Paul did not say that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8. Paul said that God imputes righteousness apart from works in Romans 4:6. Your misunderstanding of James 2 has caused you to believe that man is saved through faith and works.

You cannot rip apart anything from the law...everything in the law is connected. You cannot be saved under the law.
Paul is saying we are saved through faith.So because he does not say faith in Christ does not mean he is not talking about faith in Christ. Likewise when he says works it is works of the law he is talking about. Can any other work be compared to faith in Christ?

Paul did not say faith and works here and he meant all of the law, moral aspect included, which means all good works.

Matt 25 does not agree with you

They still thought they were made righteous based on their works, just as many people today self righteously trust in works righteousness.

that would be the other extreme of your belief....

You need to understand faith without works is dead in context, including James 2:14. James clearly said claims to have faith but has no works. What is profession without possession? Empty profession. James is not saying that our faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes alive. Faith that produces no works demonstrates that it's dead just as faith that produces works demonstrates that it's alive. That is the whole point! What comes first? Living faith or works? Living tree or fruit? James 2 is a major stumbling block for those who cannot grasp that salvation is through faith and not by works.

You are changing James words ...If faith produces works and God gives faith then if the faith that God gave me produces no fruit then God has given me dead faith.

No. An empty profession of faith, a dead faith, is not a living faith. Notice again, says or claims he has faith.

You have a hard time harmonizing this. Saved by grace through faith, not works, yet genuine faith produces good works. Dead faith - demonstrates that it's dead by producing no works. Living faith - demonstrates that it's alive by producing good works. That is how faith without works is dead.

Faith is not a production line ...some believe and they act based on their belief(work) some believe and they don't act(work)

So genuine good works that Christians do are not works of righteousness but works of unrighteousness? What did Peter mean in Acts 10:35 - But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him? Does this have to do with the law? Did the Pharisees who were following the law produce genuine works of righteousness?

just as Abraham was not under the law,Christian are not under the law ,The children of Israel was under the law...God had a covenant with them. That does not say no one else believes in God ....
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For there is no respect of persons with God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
[SUP]16 [/SUP]In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.




QUOTE]Amen! You are starting to get it! Praise God!

He who claims to have faith but has no works, demonstrates or SHOWS that he has an empty profession of faith, not genuine faith, faith without works is dead. See how this all fits together? Not saved by works, but genuine faith produces works.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
If faith produce works then no faith will be without works ....there would be no dead faith...does faith come in a wonder bag? do I have to guess if I have genuine faith that produces works or if I have an empty profession of faith that produces nothing?

I am not twisting the word. Read it all together. Faith by itself, meaning it does not produce works, shows that it's a dead faith, not a living faith. You keep misinterpreting "faith without works is dead" to mean that works are the source of life in faith. This continues to be a stumbling block for you. Please tell me, does faith produce works or do works produce faith? Does a tree produce fruit or does fruit produce a tree?

Are you accusing God of giving dead faith...
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. God gives us faith we act on the basis of that faith or we don't act on the basis of that faith. Rom 12 does not say your faith will produce thus and thus...it says be not conformed but be transformed...that shows a choice you can either be conformed or transformed....If faith produce works then there is no need for the scriptures... .

What is the harmony of "saved by grace through faith, not works and faith without works is dead?" It's NOT saved through faith and works. It's saved through faith, not works, yet genuine faith produces good works, a dead faith does not. I am not twisting the word, I am simply harmonizing scripture with scripture. Salvation by a dead faith is twisting the scripture and salvation by works is twisting the scripture.

you are harmonizing to suit your doctrine...If genuine faith produce good works and God gives genuine faith then all who God gave faith are producing good works and we are living in Utopia....

Establish faith. Faith is established first, made alive in Christ by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:5-9) then created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works. Notice the order. We SHOW our faith by our works. We don't establish our faith by our works. Faith is already established and alive in Christ before the works are produced just as a tree is already established and alive before it produces fruit. The source of life flows through the root and produces the fruit. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.

You have set up an imaginary works production line...if you are established in Christ you will show your faith by your works...not an imaginary production line

What makes you say I have no works? You are not qualified to make that judgment call. I believe and SHOW my faith by my works. My works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of my faith, but not the essence of my faith and not the means of my salvation.

your own words say you have no works ..." faith produces works " those works come off an imaginary production line

We are saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, and faith without works is dead. Here is the balance that you keep missing. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* In other words, Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1,2); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple! Too simple! This does not sit well with the doctrine of men because the pride of man self righteously wants credit for salvation by works. PRIDE is the enemy!

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”



[/QUOTE]

Doing what one ought to do has nothing to do with pride...Faith without works is dead

 

[mailmandan]

Are you accusing God of giving dead faith...

Not at all. I see no point in addressing all of your ridiculous ramblings from this post, but I will address certain things.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. God gives us faith we act on the basis of that faith or we don't act on the basis of that faith.

Some of us are called to serve in areas where we would need a larger measure of faith.

Born again believers all have faith in Christ for salvation. Faith in Christ for salvation is not simply a gift that God chooses to give to some but not others. God draws us but we choose to believe. Many people who seem to have stronger than average faith are like people who have stronger than average muscles. They’ve both spent more time exercising what they were given. Others are actually given extraordinary faith as a spiritual gift (1 Corinthians 12:9) to strengthen them for some special work.

Rom 12 does not say your faith will produce thus and thus...it says be not conformed but be transformed...that shows a choice you can either be conformed or transformed....If faith produce works then there is no need for the scriptures...

If faith produces nothing then it demonstrates that it's dead. Christians have a choice, but all Christians are fruitful, even though not all Christians are equally fruitful. There is no such thing as a genuine born again Christians who has no works:

Matthew 13:23 NCV
New Century Version
"But what is the seed that fell on the good ground? That seed is like the person who hears the teaching and understands it. That person grows and produces fruit, sometimes a hundred times more, sometimes sixty times more, and sometimes thirty times more."

Matthew 13:23 NAS
New American Standard
"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

Matthew 13:23 CEB
Common English Bible
As for what was planted on good soil, this refers to those who hear and understand, and bear fruit and produce—in one case a yield of one hundred to one, in another case a yield of sixty to one, and in another case a yield of thirty to one."

Do you still have a problem with the words bears/produces fruit? Fruit is works.

your own words say you have no works ..." faith produces works " those works come off an imaginary production line

What does bears/produces fruit mean to you? (Matthew 13:23). Does a dead faith bear/produce fruit/works or does a living faith bear/produce fruit/works? What does Ephesians 2:5-10 say?

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

These servants have done what their duty was to do because they are saved, not to become saved. The point is that a servant should expect no special reward for doing what was is their duty in the first place, not that they are saved in an unmerited way by accomplishing a long list of commands.

Doing what one ought to do has nothing to do with pride...Faith without works is dead

Doing what one ought to do BECAUSE they are saved, NOT to become saved, has nothing to do with pride. Faith without works is dead because the evidence of a living faith is that it produces fruit/works. Doing/working to receive salvation by works has everything to do with pride...Saved through faith, not works.

I've heard enough of your mixed up ramblings. I've already explained more than enough information to lead you to the truth. If you are looking to accommodate your biased theology and not the truth, then you won't accept the truth no matter how many times that I explain it to you. Continue to seek for the truth and God bless!

 

[DiscipleDave]

The NT speaks of 6 or 7 baptisms. The issue is which ONE of those baptism is in effect today per Eph 4:5 that says "One Lord, one faith, one baptism".

One Lord is required for one to be Saved, believe He is the Son of the Father in Heaven
One Faith is required for one to be Saved, without Faith impossible to please Him
One Baptism is required for one to be Saved, the Baptism Jesus gives of the Holy Ghost.

^i^

 

[SeaBass]

One Lord is required for one to be Saved, believe He is the Son of the Father in Heaven
One Faith is required for one to be Saved, without Faith impossible to please Him
One Baptism is required for one to be Saved, the Baptism Jesus gives of the Holy Ghost.

^i^

Jesus' baptism for us today is the baptism of the great commission Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16; Lk 24:47 where disciples (humans) were commanded to go into all the world and making disciples by water baptizing them.

Comparing Eph 4:5 with the great commission in Mk 16:16, in Mk 16:16 the one Lord spoke of the one faith and one baptism that saves. Again this baptism was to be administered by disciples and humans can only administer water baptism.

 

[DiscipleDave]

One Lord is required for one to be Saved, believe He is the Son of the Father in Heaven
One Faith is required for one to be Saved, without Faith impossible to please Him
One Baptism is required for one to be Saved, the Baptism Jesus gives of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus' baptism for us today is the baptism of the great commission Mt 28:19,20; Mk 16:15,16; Lk 24:47 where disciples (humans) were commanded to go into all the world and making disciples by water baptizing them.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (also read Mk 1:8, Luke 3:16, which says the same thing.)

So then according to the Greatest Prophet ever (aside from Jesus) John just witnessed that it is Jesus Christ which baptizes us with the Holy Ghost. John baptized with water, then He refers to ANOTHER type of baptism that is given by Jesus Christ NOT BY WATER. John baptized with water, Jesus baptized with Holy Ghost. totally different, not the same.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

It does not say "the same is He which baptizeth with water, but it plainly says that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost, He does not say Jesus baptizes with water.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus said this, John did not baptize with the Holy Ghost, John the Baptist baptized with WATER, Jesus however baptizes with something OTHER than water, Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost, and not with water. Holy Ghost baptism is something that Jesus does in us, not what water does for us. Anyone can be baptized with water and are not Saved, NOT baptized by Jesus Christ. When a person is Truly baptized by Jesus Christ with the Holy Ghost, that persons heart is CHANGED, they are no longer the same person they were before, this has NOTHING to do with water baptism. Those who believe otherwise are deceived and know not the Truth. Holy Ghost baptism comes from Jesus Christ alone it does NOT come from water baptism as is being taught in this last days generation.

Comparing Eph 4:5 with the great commission in Mk 16:16, in Mk 16:16 the one Lord spoke of the one faith and one baptism that saves. Again this baptism was to be administered by disciples and humans can only administer water baptism.

Humans can NEVER nor ever will be able to baptize someone with the Holy Ghost, that is what Jesus does in a person. It is plainly written in the Word of God, that it is Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Ghost, man baptizes with water. But it is only Jesus and His Holy Ghost that can CHANGE a persons heart inside out. There is only ONE Baptism that SAVES a person, and that Baptism is the baptism that Jesus Christ gives, and it is plainly written who baptizes, and with the Holy Ghost it is done. To think that teaching water baptism is required for one to be Saved, is to negate the importance of the Baptism that Jesus gives with the Holy Ghost. satan would like all to believe that the baptism that saves you is water baptism and NOT the baptism that Jesus does through the Holy Ghost.
Every person who was Baptized by John the baptist with water WAS NOT SAVED, it is ONLY the baptism that Jesus Christ offers that SAVES a person, NOT what men can give, men can water baptize, John the Baptist was not God, He baptized with water as a symbol what Jesus would do with a person heart after baptizing them with the Holy Ghost. But who in this generation will believe this Truth, they are still on sugar milk and blinded by so many false doctrines that the TRUTH is a blur to them. i tell you the Truth, believe what the Bible says and teaches or continue to put your trust in men and what they teach. i have not failed to reveal to you what He has told me concerning this topic. Search the Scriptures, pray, you will see that what i teach is True. and is from Him.

^i^

 

[newbirth]

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

(also read Mk 1:8, Luke 3:16, which says the same thing.)

So then according to the Greatest Prophet ever (aside from Jesus) John just witnessed that it is Jesus Christ which baptizes us with the Holy Ghost. John baptized with water, then He refers to ANOTHER type of baptism that is given by Jesus Christ NOT BY WATER. John baptized with water, Jesus baptized with Holy Ghost. totally different, not the same.

Water baptism is for the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, that is the promise...
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

It does not say "the same is He which baptizeth with water, but it plainly says that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost, He does not say Jesus baptizes with water.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Jesus said this, John did not baptize with the Holy Ghost, John the Baptist baptized with WATER, Jesus however baptizes with something OTHER than water, Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost, and not with water. Holy Ghost baptism is something that Jesus does in us, not what water does for us. Anyone can be baptized with water and are not Saved, NOT baptized by Jesus Christ. When a person is Truly baptized by Jesus Christ with the Holy Ghost, that persons heart is CHANGED, they are no longer the same person they were before, this has NOTHING to do with water baptism. Those who believe otherwise are deceived and know not the Truth. Holy Ghost baptism comes from Jesus Christ alone it does NOT come from water baptism as is being taught in this last days generation.

The baptism of the Holy Ghost was recorded in the upper room on the day of Pentecost and after with Cornelius
and maybe a few other times, but peter said ...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Humans can NEVER nor ever will be able to baptize someone with the Holy Ghost, that is what Jesus does in a person. It is plainly written in the Word of God, that it is Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Ghost, man baptizes with water. But it is only Jesus and His Holy Ghost that can CHANGE a persons heart inside out. There is only ONE Baptism that SAVES a person, and that Baptism is the baptism that Jesus Christ gives, and it is plainly written who baptizes, and with the Holy Ghost it is done. To think that teaching water baptism is required for one to be Saved, is to negate the importance of the Baptism that Jesus gives with the Holy Ghost. satan would like all to believe that the baptism that saves you is water baptism and NOT the baptism that Jesus does through the Holy Ghost.
Every person who was Baptized by John the baptist with water WAS NOT SAVED, it is ONLY the baptism that Jesus Christ offers that SAVES a person, NOT what men can give, men can water baptize, John the Baptist was not God, He baptized with water as a symbol what Jesus would do with a person heart after baptizing them with the Holy Ghost. But who in this generation will believe this Truth, they are still on sugar milk and blinded by so many false doctrines that the TRUTH is a blur to them. i tell you the Truth, believe what the Bible says and teaches or continue to put your trust in men and what they teach. i have not failed to reveal to you what He has told me concerning this topic. Search the Scriptures, pray, you will see that what i teach is True. and is from Him.

We are saved by grace through faith...faith without works is dead....baptism is an act of faith, obedience in response to God's word....Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


^i^

Jesus told his disciples to baptise men and since we cannot baptise with the HS, then it means you must be baptised in water...to receive the gift of the HS...
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Jesus told his disciples to baptise men and since we cannot baptise with the HS, then it means you must be baptised in water...to receive the gift of the HS...
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Here is the Truth. Jesus Christ is the one that baptizes with the Holy Ghost, men who have the Holy Spirit of God in them can baptize other people by the laying on of hands by the one who has the Holy Ghost. Do a Study of the Bible and you will find that it is by the laying on of hands that a person receives the Holy Ghost, But it is Jesus Christ who decides if a person who is having hands laid upon them, if they will be baptized by the Holy Ghost. What i mean is this. If Bob has the Holy Spirit of God in him, and he baptizes Tina with water, it is not the water that causes the person to receive the Holy Ghost, but it is two things that causes a person to receive the Holy Ghost, first of it is because Bob laid hands on the person who is about to be baptized by water, AND when Bob did lay hands on Tina, it was Jesus who granted Tina the gift of the Holy Ghost, Jesus baptized Tina, but it was done through the laying on of hands by Bob. NOT what this generation teaches which thinks the Holy Ghost is given to a person because they are immersed in water. How many times does a Spirit filled person filled with the Holy Ghost lays their hand on someone and they do not receive the Holy Ghost? It is because Jesus decides who He will baptize with the Holy Ghost and who He will not baptize. Man nor water can ever baptize a person with the Holy Ghost.
We are commanded to be water baptized though, i have never said otherwise, however we are commanded to give to the poor, clothe the naked, visit the sick. However Those things, even though we are commanded to do them, DOES NOT make one SAVED. Many can be water baptized and will enter into Hell because they were never baptized by the Holy Ghost.

^i^

 

[newbirth]

Here is the Truth. Jesus Christ is the one that baptizes with the Holy Ghost, men who have the Holy Spirit of God in them can baptize other people by the laying on of hands by the one who has the Holy Ghost. Do a Study of the Bible and you will find that it is by the laying on of hands that a person receives the Holy Ghost, But it is Jesus Christ who decides if a person who is having hands laid upon them, if they will be baptized by the Holy Ghost. What i mean is this. If Bob has the Holy Spirit of God in him, and he baptizes Tina with water, it is not the water that causes the person to receive the Holy Ghost, but it is two things that causes a person to receive the Holy Ghost, first of it is because Bob laid hands on the person who is about to be baptized by water, AND when Bob did lay hands on Tina, it was Jesus who granted Tina the gift of the Holy Ghost, Jesus baptized Tina, but it was done through the laying on of hands by Bob. NOT what this generation teaches which thinks the Holy Ghost is given to a person because they are immersed in water. How many times does a Spirit filled person filled with the Holy Ghost lays their hand on someone and they do not receive the Holy Ghost? It is because Jesus decides who He will baptize with the Holy Ghost and who He will not baptize. Man nor water can ever baptize a person with the Holy Ghost.
We are commanded to be water baptized though, i have never said otherwise, however we are commanded to give to the poor, clothe the naked, visit the sick. However Those things, even though we are commanded to do them, DOES NOT make one SAVED. Many can be water baptized and will enter into Hell because they were never baptized by the Holy Ghost.

^i^

You are making up things ...this is what the scripture says....The HS is a gift you receive when you repent and is baptised

Acts 2 Names of God Bible (NOG)
[SUP]
38 [/SUP]Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Yeshua Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. [SUP]39 [/SUP]This promise belongs to you and to your children and to everyone who is far away. It belongs to everyone who worships the Lord our God.”

 

[newbirth]

Humans can NEVER nor ever will be able to baptize someone with the Holy Ghost, that is what Jesus does in a person. It is plainly written in the Word of God, that it is Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Ghost, man baptizes with water. But it is only Jesus and His Holy Ghost that can CHANGE a persons heart inside out. There is only ONE Baptism that SAVES a person, and that Baptism is the baptism that Jesus Christ gives, and it is plainly written who baptizes, and with the Holy Ghost it is done. To think that teaching water baptism is required for one to be Saved, is to negate the importance of the Baptism that Jesus gives with the Holy Ghost. satan would like all to believe that the baptism that saves you is water baptism and NOT the baptism that Jesus does through the Holy Ghost.
Every person who was Baptized by John the baptist with water WAS NOT SAVED, it is ONLY the baptism that Jesus Christ offers that SAVES a person, NOT what men can give, men can water baptize, John the Baptist was not God, He baptized with water as a symbol what Jesus would do with a person heart after baptizing them with the Holy Ghost. But who in this generation will believe this Truth, they are still on sugar milk and blinded by so many false doctrines that the TRUTH is a blur to them. i tell you the Truth, believe what the Bible says and teaches or continue to put your trust in men and what they teach. i have not failed to reveal to you what He has told me concerning this topic. Search the Scriptures, pray, you will see that what i teach is True. and is from Him.

^i^

1 Peter 3:20-22Names of God Bible (NOG)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]They are like those who disobeyed long ago in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while Noah built the ship. In this ship a few people—eight in all—were saved by water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn’t save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Yeshua Christ, who came back from death to life. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Christ has gone to heaven where he has the highest position that God gives. Angels, rulers, and powers have been placed under his authority.

 

[DiscipleDave]

You are making up things ...this is what the scripture says....The HS is a gift you receive when you repent and is baptised

Acts 2 Names of God Bible (NOG)
[SUP]
38 [/SUP]Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Yeshua Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift. [SUP]39 [/SUP]This promise belongs to you and to your children and to everyone who is far away. It belongs to everyone who worships the Lord our God.”

Do you believe Scriptures?

Acts 8:16 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

These received the Holy Ghost with no water baptism, but by merely laying on of hands. This i am not making up.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

So then Brother Saul according to the above also recieved the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, NOT water baptism, again not making this up, it is what Scriptures plainly teach.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Again we see when a person who has the Holy Ghost lay their hands on another believer they receive the Holy Ghost, again this example was not done by water. So then clearly a person can receive the Holy Ghost not only by one method but several methods according to Scriptures. There is Scriptural proof that the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands, there is Scriptural proof that the Holy Ghost is given BEFORE someone is baptized by water, there is Scriptural proof that the Holy Ghost is given DURING someone getting baptized by water, there is Scriptural proof that the Holy Ghost is given AFTER people were already baptized by water. So the teaching that the Holy ghost is ONLY given to those who are water baptized is in error and is indeed contrary to sound doctrine. WATER baptism does not SAVE a person, Holy Ghost baptism is what SAVES a person, anyone can be water baptized, that does not SAVE a person to believe that is to believe the teachings of men and not what Scriptures teach.

^i^

 

[newbirth]

Do you believe Scriptures?

Acts 8:16 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

These received the Holy Ghost with no water baptism, but by merely laying on of hands. This i am not making up.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

[SUP]16 [/SUP](For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

So then Brother Saul according to the above also recieved the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, NOT water baptism, again not making this up, it is what Scriptures plainly teach.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, [SUP]2 [/SUP]He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Again we see when a person who has the Holy Ghost lay their hands on another believer they receive the Holy Ghost, again this example was not done by water. So then clearly a person can receive the Holy Ghost not only by one method but several methods according to Scriptures. There is Scriptural proof that the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands, there is Scriptural proof that the Holy Ghost is given BEFORE someone is baptized by water, there is Scriptural proof that the Holy Ghost is given DURING someone getting baptized by water, there is Scriptural proof that the Holy Ghost is given AFTER people were already baptized by water. So the teaching that the Holy ghost is ONLY given to those who are water baptized is in error and is indeed contrary to sound doctrine. WATER baptism does not SAVE a person, Holy Ghost baptism is what SAVES a person, anyone can be water baptized, that does not SAVE a person to believe that is to believe the teachings of men and not what Scriptures teach.

No one is denying these things happen, the question is whether it is the norm or were they special circumstances ...
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

There is a word of promise to all concerning the HS...Joel 2:28
King James Version
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


We can conclude according to these words...since the promise is to all... that this is the norm, not withstanding there can be special circumstances.

 

[IAm3rd]

No baptism is NOT mandatory to enter heaven. If that was true then the thief who was crucified next to Jesus would not have made it to heaven. But I think we all know what Jesus said to him!

Where does it say the thief went to heaven ? He actually went to the place where all those who were dissobedient went since the days of Noah, where Jesus went for 3 days to proclaim the gospel. 1 Peter capter 3: 18 >
Now, he might be in heaven now, but we dont know, and Jesus didnt give the great commission until after the resurrection.

 

[iwant2serve]

Seems most people neglect what Jesus said and go straight to Paul. Jesus said they that believe and are baptized shall be saved and those that don't believe are dammed. Notice baptism is not mentioned in the second part and this is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit because if it were they would not have been water baptizing after his resurrection. Also baptism is not a outward showing of what you confess, The bible says that by baptism you are buried and resurrected with Christ. This is all done by faith. So to teach that baptism is not essential to your salvation I believe is incorrect.n I am not sayign that baptism saves anyone either.

 

[IAm3rd]

Seems most people neglect what Jesus said and go straight to Paul. Jesus said they that believe and are baptized shall be saved and those that don't believe are dammed. Notice baptism is not mentioned in the second part and this is not the baptism of the Holy Spirit because if it were they would not have been water baptizing after his resurrection. Also baptism is not a outward showing of what you confess, The bible says that by baptism you are buried and resurrected with Christ. This is all done by faith. So to teach that baptism is not essential to your salvation I believe is incorrect.n I am not sayign that baptism saves anyone either.

agreed... we are saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ. HOWEVER, it is through baptism that we get 'into' Christ. Romans 6:2-4 and Galatians 3:27-29
This is why Peter say baptism now saves you.. 1 Peter 3:20-21.

 

[apostolic862004]

The essentials of salvation must be present in every situation where salvation occurs in Scripture,
otherwise it is not an ESSENTIAL.

Absolutely not true. Who are you to say what MUST be present in scripture to make it valid?

In Luke 13:3 Jesus said unless you repent, you will perish. In John 3:5 Jesus said unless you are born of water and Spirit you cannot enter heaven. Two separate scriptures, three different requirements, ALL essential to being saved! Neither of these scriptures mention faith. Can you be saved without faith? Absolutely not. So your statement is false. It is simply your opinion.