Daniel 9:27

[watcher2013]

The New Testament says, all things work together for good to those that love God. This is evident in the story of Joseph of when he told his brothers that what they intended for evil, God intended it for good. Also, Daniel 9:24 also says, "and to seal up the vision and prophecy,"

Jesus spoke of prophecy of the End Times.

In Matthew 24, Jesus warned his disciples that if they see the Abonimation of desolations standing in the holy place (Spoken of by Daniel the prophet, they that were in Judea are to flee to the mountains).

In Matthew 24, "standing in the holy place" fits with making "the sacrifice and oblation to cease" in Daniel 9:27. For if one were to stand in the holy place (temple), they could easily stop the sacrifices there. Also, it mentions two words (that are practically identical) that Jesus talked about. Abominations = Abomination. Desolations = Desolate. Jesus said, he that reads, let him understand. In other words, Jesus is leading you to read about these words; And God (Christ) is not the author of confusion. He is not going to tell you to read Daniel and place words that are similar so as to confuse you.

Matthew 24 begins by Jesus prophesying the destruction of the city and the temple...
Which Daniel 9 also talks about vs. 26-27.

to seal up vision and prophecy may also mean..

Mat_11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[KJV1611]

This is for all to chime in... We know for a fact that Daniel 9 is about the desolation of Jerusalem because Daniel told us so. Agree or disagree?

Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

 

[GaryA]

At first glance it sounds all well and good but in order for this reading to work, you will have to ignore the chronology of the events, though. For the prophecy is speaking chronologically.

Verse 24 is summary mention of all 70 Weeks.
Verse 25 is summary mention of rebuilding Temple (7 Weeks) to Messiah (+ 62 Weeks).
Verse 26 is saying after the added 62 week equation marker (69 Weeks total) of when Messiah is cut off is when city and sanctuary is destroyed.
Verse 27 (still following along chronologically) is when this "he" shall confirm a covenant for a week. This is not implimenting an everlasting covenant. This is merely confirming one. Not making one to go into effect (Which was done with Christ's death).

In other words, for your reading to work, we are going to have to ignore the flow of chronology of how these events are mentioned. Unless you want to believe that Jesus comes twice or something in verse 27. But why would Jesus need to confirm a covennt after the destruction of the Temple if He already put the New Covenant into effect with his death upon the cross?

The wording of the passage is not chronological.

Verse 26 is not saying that the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed at the time the Messiah is cut off.

The word 'it' in verse 27 is referring to the temple.

The confirming of the covenant occurs before the end of the 70 weeks and before the destruction of the temple.

Please read this post.

 

[Jason0047]

This is for all to chime in... We know for a fact that Daniel 9 is about the desolation of Jerusalem because Daniel told us so. Agree or disagree?

Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Yes. One of the desolations of Jerusalem is the Abomination of desolations when the Anti-Christ desecrates the Temple and shows himself to be god.

 

[Jason0047]

The wording of the passage is not chronological.

Verse 26 is not saying that the city and the sanctuary will be destroyed at the time the Messiah is cut off.

The word 'it' in verse 27 is referring to the temple.

The confirming of the covenant occurs before the end of the 70 weeks and before the destruction of the temple.

Please read this post.

)

I am sorry, my friend. I am not interested in debating Preterism at this time. That would be like trying to convince me that water is not wet in it's liquid state. For a quick glance at Revelation should make it obvious that the 7 seals have not been broken yet.

 

[GaryA]

For a quick glance at Revelation should make it obvious that the 7 seals have not been broken yet.

While a more involved and careful study of Revelation will make it more clear that the first 4 seals have already been broken ( using your words ) -- one at a time -- over the past ~2000 years.

 

[GaryA]

How in the world did you get 'Preterism' from post #183 ???

 

[Kerry]

I am sorry, my friend. I am not interested in debating Preterism at this time. That would be like trying to convince me that water is not wet in it's liquid state. For a quick glance at Revelation should make it obvious that the 7 seals have not been broken yet.

Pretetrism the Kingdom age as know yet Hitler killed 6 million Jews. wow that Jesus did something right. I woukldn't want to be a apart of a kingdom where 6 million are killed would you ?

 

[Jason0047]

Matthew 24 begins by Jesus prophesying the destruction of the city and the temple...
Which Daniel 9 also talks about vs. 26-27.

to seal up vision and prophecy may also mean..

Mat_11:13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

No, my friend. The wailing wall (which was considered a part of the temple) still exists today.

So the Temple was not utterly destroyed like Jesus had said here in Scripture...

• Matthew 24:1a-2

And... the temple... There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

​

• Mark 13:1a-2

And... of the temple, ...there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

​

In fact, according to Scripture, the outer court was considered a part of the Temple because the Israelite Temple is described as having two courts.

• 2 Kings 21:5

And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.

​

One court being the inner court...

• 1 Kings 6:36-37

And he built the inner court with three rows of hewed stone, and a row of cedar beams. In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the LORD laid,

​

And the second court being the outer court...

• Ezekiel 40:37

And the posts thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.

​

In fact, even Revelation 11 talks about leaving out the outer court in it's measurement of the Temple.

• Revelation 11:1-2

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

​

In other words, John was going to measure the outer court as being a part of the Temple, but he was specifically told not to measure it.

Therefore, in conclusion:

The complete destruction of the Temple is still yet a future thing that still needs to happen.

 

[Jason0047]

Pretetrism the Kingdom age as know yet Hitler killed 6 million Jews. wow that Jesus did something right. I woukldn't want to be a apart of a kingdom where 6 million are killed would you ?

I am sorry. I am not following. I see no connection between Preterism and Hitler.

 

[Jason0047]

While a more involved and careful study of Revelation will make it more clear that the first 4 seals have already been broken ( using your words ) -- one at a time -- over the past ~2000 years.

The first three seals can be made to fit any point in history. The fourth seal is a little harder for you to line up with something in the past, though. The rider on the 4th horse was called death and he was given power over a 4th part of the Earth to kill with sword, hunger, death, and with the beasts of the Earth. Meaning, a 4th part of the Earth will die. No point in human history has ever recorded a 4th of the population of the Earth dying between Christ and now.

 

[Jason0047]

The 4th seal lines up with the enforcement of the Mark of the Beast. Many will die all over the world. Including many Christians. It will be the biggest loss of human life in all of history. It's why in the 5th seal, the saints cry out for vengeance up in Heaven. God replies with the subsequent seals.

 

[john832]

The 4th seal lines up with the enforcement of the Mark of the Beast. Many will die all over the world. Including many Christians. It will be the biggest loss of human life in all of history. It's why in the 5th seal, the saints cry out for vengeance up in Heaven. God replies with the subsequent seals.

No it doesn't, it lines up with widespread death due to disease and natural disasters...

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Mat 24:7 ... and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 

[GaryA]

The first three seals can be made to fit any point in history. The fourth seal is a little harder for you to line up with something in the past, though. The rider on the 4th horse was called death and he was given power over a 4th part of the Earth to kill with sword, hunger, death, and with the beasts of the Earth. Meaning, a 4th part of the Earth will die. No point in human history has ever recorded a 4th of the population of the Earth dying between Christ and now.

I did not say that the fourth seal had "completely played out" --- I said it had "been opened"...

In the past ~2000 years:

Seal number 1 was "opened" ---

While it yet continued ---

Seal number 2 was "opened" ---

While it yet continued ---

Seal number 3 was "opened" ---

While it yet continued ---

Seal number 4 was "opened" ---

It continues today.

The pattern and result of seal number 1 did not stop before seal number 2 started --- "and so on"...

I believe that they "opened" in this fashion.

Seal number 5 is "right about now, plus or minus"...


You are seeing seal number 4 "play out" today.

It "has only gotten started good" -- it "has yet to finish"...




One of the problems people have with understanding biblical prophecy is - realizing that a prophetic 'event' does not necessarily occur in a "boom, and it is all over" kind of way. Some of them "stretch out" over long periods of time.



BTW - ( correct me if I am wrong ) :

A Preterist believes that ALL of revelation prophecy has come to pass.
A Historicist believes that SOME of revelation prophecy has come to pass, but not ALL.

Based on the above, you would call me a Historicist and not a Preterist.

 

[GaryA]

A Preterist believes that ALL of revelation prophecy has come to pass.
A Historicist believes that SOME of revelation prophecy has come to pass, but not ALL.

Based on the above, you would call me a Historicist and not a Preterist.

I think it would be fair to say that a Historicist does not believe that the past ~2000 years represents a 'gap' in biblical prophecy, but that, biblical prophecy has been "unfolding steadily and continuously" over the past ~2000 years.

The Olivet Discourse prophecy has "unfolded" over the past ~2000 years.

The four seals prophecy has "unfolded" over the past ~2000 years.

The "opening" of the seal refers to the beginning of the "unfolding" of what is described in the seal. It does not "come and go" in a "flash-bang-and-its-over" kind of way.

 

[Jason0047]

No it doesn't, it lines up with widespread death due to disease and natural disasters...

Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Mat 24:7 ... and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Revelation 6:7-8

And when he had opened the fourth seal... Death... was... over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


​

In Revelation 6:7-8 with the breaking of the Fourth Seal:
Authority of death is given to work thru the anti-christ's rule to kill a fourth part of the Earth; For the anti-christ will kill you by the sword with his military might. He will kill you with hunger by the fact that you will not be able to buy or sell without the Mark. He will kill you with death by either the taking or the refusing of the Mark (i.e. You will die spiritually if you take the Mark or you will die physically if you do not take the Mark). He will kill you with his beasts or his loyal followers in various nations thru out the Earth, too.

For the term “beast” is used to describe human governments in the book of Daniel (chapters 7 & 8) and the government ran by the Antichrist and false prophet is depicted as beasts rising from the sea and earth in Revelation 13.

So after the abomination of desolation is set up in the Jewish Temple at the midpoint of the Tribulation, the lethal enforcement of the Mark will then go into effect and thereby bring forth one of the highest death tolls in human history. This is the breaking of the Fourth Seal and it is the starting point of the Great Tribulation. Here is a chart to check it out.

 

[Jason0047]

A. As Babylon (the City) Burns by Fire, Babylon's Economic System Falls:
(Effecting the Entire World's Economy):

• Revelation 18:9-12 NLT, Revelation 18:13ESV, Revelation 18:14WEB,
.. Revelation 18:15-16 NLT, Revelation 18:17ESV, Revelation 18:18 NLT, and
.. Revelation 18:19ISV

And the kings of the world who committed adultery with her and enjoyed her great luxury will mourn for her as they see the smoke rising from her charred remains. They will stand at a distance, terrified by her great torment. They will cry out,

“How terrible, how terrible for you,
O Babylon, you great city!
In a single moment
God’s judgment came on you.”

The merchants of the world will weep and mourn for her, for there is no one left to buy their goods. She bought great quantities of gold, silver, jewels, and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk, and scarlet cloth; things made of fragrant thyine wood, ivory goods, and objects made of expensive wood; and bronze, iron, and marble. Cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and slaves, that is, human souls.

The fruits which your soul lusted after have been lost to you, and all things that were dainty and sumptuous have perished from you, and you will find them no more at all. The merchants who became wealthy by selling her these things will stand at a distance, terrified by her great torment. They will weep and cry out,

“How terrible, how terrible for that great city!
She was clothed in finest purple and scarlet linens,
decked out with gold and precious stones and pearls!
For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste.”

And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off. They will cry out as they watch the smoke ascend, and they will say,

“Where is there another city as great as this?” Then they threw dust on their heads and shouted while crying and mourning:

"How terrible, how terrible it is for the great city, where all who had ships at sea became rich from her wealth, because it has been destroyed in a single hour!"

​

• Revelation 18:22-23 NLT

"No craftsmen and no trades will ever be found in you again.
The sound of the mill will never be heard in you again.
The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
For your merchants were the greatest in the world"

​

The Third Seal:

• Revelation 6:5-6

The Third Seal Opened

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on it had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see you hurt not the oil and the wine.​

Commentary - Revelation 18:9-19 NLT, Revelation 18:22-23 NLT, Revelation 6:5-6

Mystery Babylon and all it's riches are destroyed. In other words, Babylon's economy falls. Which would line up with the third seal.

 

[Jason0047]

I think it would be fair to say that a Historicist does not believe that the past ~2000 years represents a 'gap' in biblical prophecy, but that, biblical prophecy has been "unfolding steadily and continuously" over the past ~2000 years.

The Olivet Discourse prophecy has "unfolded" over the past ~2000 years.

The four seals prophecy has "unfolded" over the past ~2000 years.

The "opening" of the seal refers to the beginning of the "unfolding" of what is described in the seal. It does not "come and go" in a "flash-bang-and-its-over" kind of way.

The first seal is a man on a white horse. This is the man who obtain the kingdom by flatteries (As Scripture talks about). This is the Antichrist. Jesus warns of an Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. This lines up with what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2. He speaks of the man of sin showing himself to be god and exalting himself above God (i.e. speaking great blasphemies, c.f. Revelation 13:5). Jesus says when they see this happen, those in Judea are to flee to the mountains. Why? Because this guy is no good. Jesus refers us to this Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 9:27. The angel in Daniel 9 says that the "he" (From the previous verse, who is the prince or principality (demon) of the people that destroyed the Temple) shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease (in the middle of the last week). This obviously has not happened yet. No man has showed himself to be God in any holy temple after Jesus Christ. So there is a prophetic gape between the 69th week and the 70th week. This fits the language of the passage because it breaks up the time into gaps. 7 weeks + 62 weeks. It then mentions that from the time of the commandment to rebuild the Temple to the Messiah is 62 weeks (69 weeks, i.e. 7 + 62).

Now, is there Biblical support for prophet gaps in the Bible? Yes, there are numerous examples of this phenomenon of prophetic gaps. The First and Second Coming of Christ are juxtaposed in numerous passages (Isa. 61:1-2; Zec. 9:9-10; Mal. 3:1-2; 4:5-6; Luke 4:17-19). Yet history has shown these events to be separated by at least 1900 years. The first and second resurrections are juxtaposed (Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29), yet they are separated by no less than 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6).

For an explanation of these prophetic gaps, check out this article here:

http://www.bereaninternetministry.org/Papers/Prophetic Gaps.doc

 

[KJV1611]

The first seal is a man on a white horse. This is the man who obtain the kingdom by flatteries (As Scripture talks about). This is the Antichrist. Jesus warns of an Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. This lines up with what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2. He speaks of the man of sin showing himself to be god and exalting himself above God (i.e. speaking great blasphemies, c.f. Revelation 13:5). Jesus says when they see this happen, those in Judea are to flee to the mountains. Why? Because this guy is no good. Jesus refers us to this Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 9:27. The angel in Daniel 9 says that the "he" (From the previous verse, who is the prince or principality (demon) of the people that destroyed the Temple) shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease (in the middle of the last week). This obviously has not happened yet. No man has showed himself to be God in any holy temple after Jesus Christ. So there is a prophetic gape between the 69th week and the 70th week. This fits the language of the passage because it breaks up the time into gaps. 7 weeks + 62 weeks. It then mentions that from the time of the commandment to rebuild the Temple to the Messiah is 62 weeks (69 weeks, i.e. 7 + 62).

Now, is there Biblical support for prophet gaps in the Bible? Yes, there are numerous examples of this phenomenon of prophetic gaps. The First and Second Coming of Christ are juxtaposed in numerous passages (Isa. 61:1-2; Zec. 9:9-10; Mal. 3:1-2; 4:5-6; Luke 4:17-19). Yet history has shown these events to be separated by at least 1900 years. The first and second resurrections are juxtaposed (Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29), yet they are separated by no less than 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6).

For an explanation of these prophetic gaps, check out this article here:

http://www.bereaninternetministry.org/Papers/Prophetic%20Gaps.doc

How is it that you can say, just from a man on a white horse, that this man will obtain the kingdom by flatteries? Seriously, you can't know that these two are the same. Are there other scriptures that portray the Antichrist riding a white horse?

 

[Jason0047]

How is it that you can say, just from a man on a white horse, that this man will obtain the kingdom by flatteries? Seriously, you can't know that these two are the same. Are there other scriptures that portray the Antichrist riding a white horse?

The devil always tries to mock God by imitating Him and so as to deceive us. For Jesus is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The devil is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. There is a True Vine (Jesus). There is also a vine of Sodom. In fact, Satan had said he wanted to be like the Most High.

So naturally, there is going to be a false Messaiah or a counterfeit. That is why in 2 Thessalonians 2 we see the man of sin showing himself that he is God within the Temple. For both the man on the white horse at the breaking of the first seal is riding a white horse just like Jesus is riding a white horse when he comes down from Heaven. However, there are differences between them, though. Jesus is carrying a sword at His 2nd Coming; Wherethis man (at the breaking of the 1st seal) is carrying a bow. Who else carried a bow in Scripture? Esau. He was a hunter. Who else was a hunter? Nimrod. In Micah 5:6 we learn that the land of Assyria is also the land of Nimrod. Why is this important? Because the Antichrist is the Assyrian mentioned within the Bible.

From Where the Antichrist Comes