Jesus is the "Messenger of the Lord" in the Old Testament.
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Correct....you cannot see God The Father's face and physically live.
The Son was not known as 'The Son' until the NT.
The Son was known by other titles in the OT.
You already know about Malek Yahweh, as one of those names.
Demons occupy existing flesh....hardly a comparison to that of God The Son...
The Hebrew tells us that this is just another term for 'rulers' of that day.
Since when are mere angels referred to as Lord and Yahweh?
Read Gen 18 again....
Already provided the coffin-nailing scripture in a prior post...
There are!
The Son was not known as 'The Son' until the NT.
The Son was known by other titles in the OT.
You already know about Malek Yahweh, as one of those names.
Demons occupy existing flesh....hardly a comparison to that of God The Son...
The Hebrew tells us that this is just another term for 'rulers' of that day.
Since when are mere angels referred to as Lord and Yahweh?
Read Gen 18 again....
Already provided the coffin-nailing scripture in a prior post...
There are!
Agreed.
Not true. The Son had been prophesied many times in the OT.
Psalm 2:7 “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘Thou art My Son,Today I have begotten Thee.
Psalm 2:11-12 "Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him."
Proverbs 30:4 "Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His son’s name?
Surely you know!"
Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."
Isaiah 9:6-7 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this."
Daniel 3:25
"He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."
Agreed.
Or Malek Yehovah (As translated from the Hebrew symbols), which means "Messenger of the Lord" (In Modern English).
I was not saying they are anything a like by way of contrast. That was not my point. I am merely talking about the bodies of angels in general and how they can interact with this phsysical world. Even God Himself had burned a top of the mountain with his actual presence. If God was Spirit in such a way whereby He could not effect our reality in any way shape or form, then surely He would not be able to burn the top of the mountain unless He set out to do that. In fact, you yourself have admitted that no flesh could survive if they seen God the Father. God (Christ) told Moses and Joshua to take off their shoes because they were standing on holy ground. Do you think maybe this reality was effected by the very presence of God? So yes. I believe God and his angels can directly effect this world physically.
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Deuteronomy 4:11
"And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness."
The top of the mountain is burned; And scientists have analyzed the blackened top of this rock and it is not from a volcanic eruption.
"And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness."
[video=youtube;oKjd3CV0MCs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKjd3CV0MCs[/video]
In the King James I see nothing about how the other two men are called Lord. It was Jesus and two angels that visited Abraham. We know this because later in verse 22 we see the two angels (who were described as men) leave towards Sodom so as to deliver Lot in the next chapter. The Lord (Pre-Incarnate Christ in the appearance of a man) then still talked with Abraham.
No, this is what the passage says,
John 1:30
"This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."
"This is he [Jesus] of whom I [John] said, After me [John or After John's birth] cometh a man [Jesus or Jesus' birth] which is preferred [higher in rank or greater] before me [John]: for he [Jesus] was before [existed before] me [John]."
See, this passage doesn't say that Jesus was a man before John. It says, "After me comes a man..." (i.e. Meaning after John's birth) and then it continues to create another thought and say, "which is preferred before me" (i.e. Meaning Jesus is greater than John), and then John continues with another thought and says, "for he was before me." (i.e. It just says Jesus was before John here, it doesn't say He was a man before John; And grammatically you can't cram an idea in the first part of the sentence without clarification of the last half of the sentence that this is the case).
In order for this passage to say what you want it to say, it would need to say this in the last half of the sentence.
"For he was before me as a man." But the passage does not say that, though. The first half of the sentence is just talking about the physical world concerning John and Jesus' births. The middle part of the sentence is talking about how Jesus is greater than John. The last half of the sentence is just talking about how Jesus existed [generically] before John. Seeing John was born before Jesus and we have no other clue in Scripture that Jesus was born (or took on flesh) prior to being born in Mary, we have to conclude that Christ merely existed as Spirit as the Son of God (or second person of the Godhead).
John 1:30
"This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."
"This is he [Jesus] of whom I [John] said, After me [John or After John's birth] cometh a man [Jesus or Jesus' birth] which is preferred [higher in rank or greater] before me [John]: for he [Jesus] was before [existed before] me [John]."
See, this passage doesn't say that Jesus was a man before John. It says, "After me comes a man..." (i.e. Meaning after John's birth) and then it continues to create another thought and say, "which is preferred before me" (i.e. Meaning Jesus is greater than John), and then John continues with another thought and says, "for he was before me." (i.e. It just says Jesus was before John here, it doesn't say He was a man before John; And grammatically you can't cram an idea in the first part of the sentence without clarification of the last half of the sentence that this is the case).
In order for this passage to say what you want it to say, it would need to say this in the last half of the sentence.
"For he was before me as a man." But the passage does not say that, though. The first half of the sentence is just talking about the physical world concerning John and Jesus' births. The middle part of the sentence is talking about how Jesus is greater than John. The last half of the sentence is just talking about how Jesus existed [generically] before John. Seeing John was born before Jesus and we have no other clue in Scripture that Jesus was born (or took on flesh) prior to being born in Mary, we have to conclude that Christ merely existed as Spirit as the Son of God (or second person of the Godhead).
·Yahweh appears as ‘three men’ to Abraham (Gen 18.1 – 2)
·Abraham addresses the ‘three men’ as ‘my Lords’ (adonai - plural)
·Abrahams responds… “If I have found favor in your (singular) sight (singular)…”(Gen 18.3)
·“They answered Abraham” indicating that each of the ‘three men’ were Lord (Gen 18.5) (Effectively eliminating the three angels or God and two angels argument)
·Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the third person (Gen 18.14, 19)
·God the Father remained to talk with Abraham, then returned to Heaven without going to Sodom (Gen 18.33)
·According to the text, there are at least two Yahwehs in Genesis 18 – 19.One Yahweh stated that he would go down to Sodom – and then two of the ‘three men’ went to Sodom (Gen 18.2, 22; 19.12).Abraham remained talking with another Yahweh (Gen 18.21 – 22).Later, Yahweh is described as being in Heaven while Yahweh is mentioned as being in Sodom (Gen 19.24)
·Gen 18 -19 shows us that there was never such a thing as the ‘Majestic Plural’
Yet, these texts were in the Old Testament manuscripts and the OT saint was aware of them. So I would have to disagree. That would be like saying that the prophecy about Jesus' return is not supposed to be for us today because it in the future. Abraham seen Christ's day and he was glad. So no. I believe these prophecies were to prepare Israel for the Messiah. So they applied to the Israelite living in Old Testament times. They read the Scriptures that talked about the Son.
No. First off all, my Bible (the KJV) does not say Lords (Plural) at any point. Nor does the Hebrew (Adonay). Second, Genesis 18:22 says,
"And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD."
Then Genesis 19:1 says,
"And there came two angels to Sodom at even;..."
At the start of Abraham meeting these men, we know it was three men (Genesis 18:2).
So lets write down the Number 3.
One of these men is called Lord (Genesis 18:3 KJV) (Not Lords).
Then the men turned their faces and went toward Sodom but Abraham stood yet before the Lord (Singular).
This means that out of 3 men, 2 of the men went to Sodom and the Lord (Who is 1) stood by Abraham to talk with him.
This would be the equivalent of:
3 - 2 = 1.
(3) being the total amount of men.
(2) being the number of men who went towards Sodom.
(1) representing the Lord who stood with Abraham still to talk with him.
Then what we would call the next chapter (Note: Chapter breaks did not really exist in the original manuscripts), we see the story continue of the two men who went towards Sodom, but this time they are called two angels that went towards Sodom.
"And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD."
Then Genesis 19:1 says,
"And there came two angels to Sodom at even;..."
At the start of Abraham meeting these men, we know it was three men (Genesis 18:2).
So lets write down the Number 3.
One of these men is called Lord (Genesis 18:3 KJV) (Not Lords).
Then the men turned their faces and went toward Sodom but Abraham stood yet before the Lord (Singular).
This means that out of 3 men, 2 of the men went to Sodom and the Lord (Who is 1) stood by Abraham to talk with him.
This would be the equivalent of:
3 - 2 = 1.
(3) being the total amount of men.
(2) being the number of men who went towards Sodom.
(1) representing the Lord who stood with Abraham still to talk with him.
Then what we would call the next chapter (Note: Chapter breaks did not really exist in the original manuscripts), we see the story continue of the two men who went towards Sodom, but this time they are called two angels that went towards Sodom.
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Abraham never referred to Jesus as Yahweh The Son, as Yahweh was not called yet The Son until NT times, as told to us in the Book of Hebrews.
God The Son appeared to Abraham as El Shaddai (Almighty God), Yahweh, etc, etc.
Regarding modern day Christians, what title difference will Jesus bear when we see Him again that we did not already know Him by...?
Now you can see the difference...