Jesus is the "Messenger of the Lord" in the Old Testament.

[Bowman]

No. First off all, my Bible (the KJV) does not say Lords (Plural) at any point.

The KJV is a TRANSLATION, Jason.

Bible study takes place in the ORIGINAL languages - NOT translational languages.

Hence the roadblock you have artificially erected for yourself.

Nor does the Hebrew (Adonay).

Any lexicon shows plural.

Second, Genesis 18:22 says,

"And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD."

Then Genesis 19:1 says, "And there came two angels to Sodom at even;..."

At the start of Abraham meeting these men, we know it was three men (Genesis 18:2).

So lets down the Number 3.

One of these men is called Lord (Genesis 18:3 KJV) (Not Lords).

All three are called Lords (plural in the Hebrew)....and 'they' answer in the plural, proving the plural.

Then the men turned their faces and went toward Sodom but Abraham stood yet before the Lord (Singular).

This means that out of 3 men, 2 of the men went to Sodom and the Lord (Who is 1) stood by Abraham to talk with him.

This would be the equivalent of:

3 - 2 = 1.

(3) being the total amount of men.
(2) being the number of men who went towards Sodom.
(1) representing the Lord who stood with Abraham still to talk with him.

Jason...what about Yahweh speaking to Yahweh in the third-person?

You are turning your head pretty hard to the left on this one.

Be honest with yourself...

Then what we would call the next chapter (Note: Chapter breaks did not really exist in the original manuscripts), we see the story continue of the two men who went towards Sodom, but this time they are called two angels that went towards Sodom.

If you agree that this is a continuous narrative, then we have more than one Yahweh in the story.

Simple.

 

[Bowman]

No, sorry. I disagree big time. But I think it is best to let this point rest. I don't think this is a debate either one of us will win.

I study the original languages.

You only use the KJV.

So...how can you possibly prove your point...?

 

[Bowman]

Yes, God was manifested in the flesh when the Word was made flesh thru Mary. How exactly is this passage saying that Christ was flesh or born into this world before Christ came thru Mary?

I don't exactly see how this passage is proving your point here.

Its a sequence of events.

God in the flesh comes first.

According to you....the Son as Spirit was first.....not so...

 

[Jason0047]

Jason....you are grasping at straws.

The text clearly states that Jesus, as a MAN, preceded John's existence.

I disagree. I believe you are wanting something to be true and are forcing the text to fit what is in your mind's eye.

John 3:17 is my final attempt to correct your wrong view here of God on this point, my friend.

John 3:17
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

So how exactly did the "Messenger of the Lord" (i.e. Christ before He was born thru Mary) not condemn the world in the Old Testament. There was a time when the Messenger of the Lord had destroyed an entire army (2 Kings 19:35; c.f. with 2 Kings 19:19). There was a time when He appeared before Joshua and gave him plans to destroy the city of Jericho (Read the end of Joshua 5 and the beginning of Joshua 6).

See, God sent his Son into the world (by flesh), not to condemn the world; but that the world thru him might be saved.

If God sent the Son into the world before that time where He condemned many by executing justice upon many, then such a statement does not make any sense.

But again, if you can't see it after my explanation here, then I think it is best to let this point of topic rest. We should not let these types of things divide us as Christians in love. For if we are being guided by the Spirit, will be guided into all truth in time.

Exo 15.3...

Yahweh is a Man of war; Yahweh is His name.

I actually want to thank you for bring this passage up. Very beautiful. I believe Yahweh is a Man of War, too. I am sure the Jews at that time thought this was a metaphorical expression of God; And it could still very well be understood metaphorically. However, I believe Jesus will return one day to destroy the evil nations of this world. So this passage is literally true, too. It is prophetic. It is beautiful because He will end all evil in the world and bring in a kingdom filled of only goodness and righteousness.

 

[Bowman]

I disagree. I believe you are wanting something to be true and are forcing the text to fit what is in your mind's eye.

John 3:17 is my final attempt to correct your wrong view here of God on this point, my friend.

John 3:17
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

So how exactly did the "Messenger of the Lord" (i.e. Christ before He was born thru Mary) not condemn the world in the Old Testament. There was a time when the Messenger of the Lord had destroyed an entire army (2 Kings 19:35; c.f. with 2 Kings 19:19). There was a time when He appeared before Joshua and gave him plans to destroy the city of Jericho (Read the end of Joshua 5 and the beginning of Joshua 6).

See, God sent his Son into the world (by flesh), not to condemn the world; but that the world thru him might be saved.

If God sent the Son into the world before that time where He condemned many by executing justice upon many, then such a statement does not make any sense.

But again, if you can't see it after my explanation here, then I think it is best to let this point of topic rest. We should not let these types of things divide us as Christians in love. For if we are being guided by the Spirit, will be guided into all truth in time.

Jason...why are you afraid to show context?

Your example from John declares that the one rejecting Jesus has ALREADY condemned himself!

This self-condemnation is no different than what Malek Yahweh had to perform in the OT with the ones rejecting Him as God.

I actually want to thank you for bring this passage up. Very beautiful. I believe Yahweh is a Man of War, too. I am sure the Jews at that time thought this was a metaphorical expression of God; And it could still very well be understood metaphorically. However, I believe Jesus will return one day to destroy the evil nations of this world. So this passage is literally true, too. It is prophetic. It is beautiful because He will end all evil in the world and bring in a kingdom filled of only goodness and righteousness.

A metaphoric expression…?

Let’s let context inform the reader that this is hardly a ‘metaphor’…

Then Moses and the sons of Israel sang this song to Yahweh, and spoke, saying, I will sing to Yahweh, for He is highly exalted. He has thrown the horse and his rider into the sea.My strength and song is Yahweh, and it happened, He was to me salvation; this is my God and I will glorify Him; the God of my father, and I will exalt Him. Yahweh is a Man of war; Yahweh is His name. He has cast Pharaoh's chariots and his army in the sea; and the choice ones of his officers are drowned in the Sea of Reeds, the depths cover them; they have dropped into the depths like a stone.(Exo 15.1 – 5)


This is the Song of Moses and it summarizes the events which occurred at the parting of the sea.


Exo 14 declares that it was Malek haelohim (literally Messenger of ‘all the Gods’) who led the camp of Israel across the sea.As you already comprehend, this is just another term for Malek Yahweh – which refers to Jesus.


So…Jesus is being referred to yet again as a MAN.


Further proving the point, this time in the NT, is Revelation, as thus…


And I saw, as a glassy sea having been mixed with fire. And the ones overcoming the beast, and its image, and its mark, of the number of its name, were standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.And they sing the song of Moses the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty, righteous and true are Your ways, King of the saints.Who will not fear You, Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only are holy. For all the nations will come and will worship before You, because Your righteousnesses were made known.(Rev 15.2 – 4)




Here we have The Song of Moses – which refers to Yahweh as a MAN in the OT – combined with The Song of The Lamb – which refers to Yahweh as a MAN in the NT!!!


Simple, Biblical truth.

 

[cfultz3]

Jason...?

I see that you are spreading yourself too thin by being logged into too many internet boards at the same time....

Spying on people will really get people to trust you, Bowman

 

[Kerry]

I haven'y read this thread only the title. Jesus is no messenger and at the same time He is. In rhe OT Jesus is called the word of the Lord among many other titles. Angels were used but never worshiped. Daniel did not worship Gabriel. The instances where the Angel of the Lord appeared is Jesus and they fell on their face and worshiped Him. Also every where in the OT where it say the Word of The Lord , that is Jesus.

 

[cfultz3]

I haven'y read this thread only the title. Jesus is no messenger and at the same time He is. In rhe OT Jesus is called the word of the Lord among many other titles. Angels were used but never worshiped. Daniel did not worship Gabriel. The instances where the Angel of the Lord appeared is Jesus and they fell on their face and worshiped Him. Also every where in the OT where it say the Word of The Lord , that is Jesus.

That is what the OP is saying...that the Word is the Speaker of the Trinity...thus 'Messenger'....God sent the Son (the Word having became that Son when He took flesh upon Himself) with a message and He delivered that message.

 

[Bowman]

Spying on people will really get people to trust you, Bowman

We happen to use the same forums....so I guess that is 'spying' to you....go figure...

 

[Bowman]

What?!!!

Jason...have you never read the account of Luke?

John the Baptist' mother Elizabeth was already 6 months pregnant with him BEFORE Mary conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Come on...

I think what really happed here is that Jason was hung-over from drinking too much non-fermented grape juice....

 

[cfultz3]

We happen to use the same forums....so I guess that is 'spying' to you....go figure...

Go figure that one would assume the rest of the world knows this and would simply imply that he is all over the place proclaiming a false message. So yes, that was the implication you gave in your message.....

 

[Bowman]

Go figure that one would assume the rest of the world knows this and would simply imply that he is all over the place proclaiming a false message. So yes, that was the implication you gave in your message.....

That thought would have only come to the mind of someone NOT participating in the discussion, and was looking very hard to interject a red herring...

 

[cfultz3]

That thought would have only come to the mind of someone NOT participating in the discussion, and was looking very hard to interject a red herring...

A humble person would have had apologized for having given a false impression or at least corrected the person in his or her wrong understanding. And love would not had automatically assumed ill-intent for having commented on the matter.

 

[Bowman]

A humble person would have had apologized for having given a false impression or at least corrected the person in his or her wrong understanding. And love would not had automatically assumed ill-intent for having commented on the matter.

Apology accepted...