Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[Dan_473]

When the scripture says, and God breathed into the nostrils of Adam, "the breath of life" and he became a living soul, I believe that is a metaphoric statement that God placed Adams already-existing, pre-existent spirit into the newly formed flesh and bone body of Adam and he became a living soul.

I do not believe that there is a pre-existent spirit and then when Adam's flesh and bone body was formed, his pre-existent
spirit was sent off to some storage locker and a new spirit was breathed into Adams nostrils.

There is only 1 birth of the pre-existent spirit. This spirit is not reborn at the birth of a new flesh and blood body, it is just placed into it and continues to exist, but now united with the flesh and bone body. It is born-again later(only the second time) as you become aware of God and his gospel and you go to your knees and repent of your sins and confess Jesus. At this time the Holy Spirit enters into this body and communes with your pre-existent spirit (that was only born once) and witnesses that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God. We become one with the Godhead and we are valiant for the cause of Christ in our second estate and our whole future is bright and full of joy.


I'm not sure if you are serious or you are mocking me. How many ways can you be born-again? I said the Holy Spirit communes with your spirit that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God, it also refreshes your spirit and you become one with the Godhead and you are supported in your valiant efforts to produce fruit for the Kingdom of God.

That seems to me to be a text-book born-again evangelical sermon. And according to evangelical teachings, if you are born again, you are saved from your sins. This is the whole reason for being born again, to repent and confess Jesus and be forgiven of your sins. Maybe you have another way that you are born-again, let us know?



I would agree that the pre-existence of the spirit is something you have to dig for and study a little deeper into the scriptures. But how God has ordained that the body be procreated on earth and then resurrected as a new and glorious, incorruptible body of flesh and bone is standard Bible and evangelical gospel. You would have to council God as to why He did what he did and perhaps explain to Him that it could have been done better.



The reason you went through the process of being born-again, is because you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God unless you are, says Jesus.

You may not be an angel and you may be fighting the flesh, but I think you are making a valiant effort for Christ here on earth, just like you did in the pre-exisstence.

I'm going to tell you why you don't remember the pre-existence. If you were completely aware of what happened in the pre-existence, your free will would be put at risk. The number one rule of God is that each man has the free will to choose good from evil. If you knew all, you would by compulsion choose good. Its almost like if you knew you had the best hand in a poker game, you would always pick the right way. What God does is give you a glimpse of the pre-existence through the scriptures, but not enough to get a full, unrestricted picture, and in that way he gives you enough to grow your faith, but not enough to destroy your free will.



Actually, the angels that fought with Satan, were cast down to the new earth with him and we call them demons and devils and evil spirits. Jesus and the apostles were confronted many times by satan and these evil spirits, who called Jesus by name and new exactly who he was because they had known him in the pre-existence. Today, we fight hard not to even come in contact with Satan and these evil spirits.

Anyone that has a body (you really don't know how important the flesh and bone body is to God) in this earth life, kept their first estate in the pre-existence and fought against Satan and his angels. Satan and his angels did not keep their first estate (they were thrown out of heaven in the pre-existence) and will not have an opportunity to receive a body, or be resurrected and be with Jesus in his throne. By forfeiting their first estate, their future is dark and ugly

say, Daniel, i posted to you about acts 17, God making us all from one blood, physical children...did you see it? did you want to keep talking about that subject?
I've been enjoying our discussion!

 

[Dan_473]

I haven't found any verse that say we do have "free will" before our natural birth either. Omniscient is the word but there is no KJV scripture for that. I used all power in relation. My error.

This would have been more appropriate.
Psalm 139:1-6
1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising , thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high , I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

This should also be related to my explanation of "I never knew you" in this post of my first paragraph

well, let's see... I wrote that I couldn't think of anything in the bible that would go against free will before birth... you started post 513 with "I can..."... then I saw verses about free will after birth in some ways... so, if you know of some verses about free will before birth, I'm interested...
to me, PS 139 is talking about God knowing us in great detail... to be honest, I don't see anything that would limit our ability to choose stuff... great talking with you, BTW...

 

[Dan_473]

Once again, this is only my own personal viewpoint, but I think as spirit beings before we were born, God made us aware that there would be sin in our lives and we could choose to follow him, or choose to go the way of Satan. I was'nt suggesting that we were prideful from the very beginning. He gave us free will to make our own decisions, so he already knew what path in life we would choose. He also knows we can turn away from the devil anytime, and repent and ask forgiveness and follow Jesus. Ultimately, Satan really has no say, and is most certainly NOT "top dog". He knows what is coming, and what his fate is, and he knows the fate of the saved and the unsaved.

if we have some choice in the matter of what kind of life we'll have at birth, that can solve a lot of questions about why some people are born blind, or into this family instead of that one, and so on...we can say something like 'I chose this plotline before I was born, it's my way of glorifying God'...

 

[just-me]

I'm really sorry that these kinds of things happen to people. I too know the sadness of friends who have given up their faith in Jesus Christ because of a disturbing discrepancy. The Mormon church, however, does not have a monopoly on sad Jesus-rejecting apostasies. In fact all Christian organizations are experiencing these kind of experiences.

Your wife's second cousin did not leave the church because of this discrepancy. It may have been the excuse, but it was not the cause. He left because he no longer felt the passion to be Christ-centered any longer. He wants to live his life the way he wants, not the way the Lord wants. You don't think I can see the discrepancies that seem to exist in the Mormon church? You don't think I can't see the discrepancies that seem to exist in the Bible. You don't think I can't see the discrepancies that exist between competing Christian evangelical preachers and the books they write. I see it all, but I do not make those discrepancies the centerpiece of my life and use them to turn away from Jesus Christ. Jesus is the centerpiece of my life and I have studied and prayed about these discrepancies enough to know that what seems to be true, is not necessarily true. Many discrepancies are man made also. Sometimes men say things that are of a personal belief that is not church doctrine, and when they write about it, it can be disturbing. Again, if you are going to be Christ-centered, you have to overlook many man-made and satan-made discrepancies in order to focus on the direction you need to be going. So good luck to all of us.

I agree that every denominational doctrine has their shortcomings. None of our relatives practice polygamy, and I believe the true Mormon doctrine of today doesn't either as other “offshoots” do. In relation to our cousin, the reason he started questioning the doctrine leading up his rejection was that he recognized doctrine that taught incest concerning the conception of Jesus Christ. You and I both know this was not intentional by the teaching of the church but is connected with the doctrine of "spirit children" and its aspects of relationship. It started with the doctrine that doesn't recognize how we are made in accordance with God. (Their image) We have a motivating spirit, a thought process to learn and decipher, and a physical body.

I can only say that you cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven unless you are born-again, regardless of the pre-existence or not.

We were not perfect little spirit children in the pre-existence. Lucifer/Satan was one of the spirit children and look what he turned into. God's number one rule is that all have "free agency" to choose. So in the pre-existence we also had the right to choose and 1/3 followed Lucifer and lost everything. 2/3 followed Jesus and had the opportunity to progress.

I agree we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven unless we are born again through the spirit of God in Christ Jesus. Speaking of Satan being a spirit child, I am wondering if Michael and Gabriel were also spirit children before they were born, or were they? Lucifer rebelled before coming to earth, but I see nowhere that he was born as a baby after his expulsion.
Isaiah 14:12-17
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning ! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble , that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? Lucifer came to earth in the form of a serpent.

Adam and Eve, the very first man and woman, were sent into a precarious situation. God places them in a beautiful garden and then leaves, but allows satan to come to them and temp them to eat of the forbidden tree. We don't know how long it took for satan to finally persuade Eve to partake, so he could have been working on her for a while. Finally she succumbs to the pressure and does eat. We only know a small amount of information about this situation, but the lie was that if she ate, she would be like the gods, knowing good and evil. I am sure that this did not happen in a short 2 or 3 days. I am sure that when God said, don't eat, Eve did not go out the next day (even being tempted by satan) and eat. So I believe there is much more to this story than what is recorded. Nonetheless, God left Adam and Eve in close proximity to satan and that seems a little unfair. Why did God throw Adam and Eve into that situation, knowing they would transgress? (God knows everything).
From Adam to today, I believe God allows (rather than throws) situations to develop that will ultimately be for our good. We may stumble occasionally, but if we have the right attitudes and know about the grace of Jesus Christ, we pick ourselves up and we become better persons in the effort of building up the Kingdom of God.

Why would a loving God do this is a question you and I both have, or had. As we know God can use evil to fulfill His purpose like hardening the heart of Pharaoh. This situation then confirms that choosing good and evil is something that happens after natural birth. It seems obvious to me that we are created to respond to a loving relationship with our Father in heaven. If all was perfect, and there had been no transgression, there would be no law, or the need for salvation. The salvation plan is not an afterthought by our Father in Heaven and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. With all these questions that might arise because we are not given finite details, one thing is evident. The need we see in choosing Christ as our Savior shows us a greater depth of God's love and compassion for us. There are many different choices we can make, but God desires us to make one choice after we are born in the flesh. If the situation concerning Eve's temptation in the garden of Eden had never happened, it would be like a certain dictatorship rather than a sacred romance as He desires. We are created to respond to His love.

We weren't perfect spiritually or physically. The most important concept is that we needed to be faithful in our first estate and progress to our second estate. In the second estate, we would gain a body that would be united with our pre-existent spirit and that combination is the soul of man. (I know we can discuss what the make-up of man is and what the soul is and all of that, but the information that we have is sketchy and what it comes down to is what you believe).

We have the opportunity to act on our own outside the closer contact with God found in the pre-existence. Very much like God formed Adam and Eve and then placed them in the garden and then left them alone. He has left you and I alone to see how we use our free agency. If we keep our second estate, then we will have the right to return to Him once again and the future is bright. (see my post 507 towards the end, you will find out why it is important that we do not remember the entire experience of the pre-existence.)

If we were once spirit children in heaven and weren't perfect, we would be cast out like Lucifer, following him with the fall after the heavenly war was waged. It is clear that the flesh wars against the spirit so if we were not perfect as “spirit children” we would have a body of flesh before we were born. Speaking of being left alone as you mentioned Adam was, that isn't what the Bible says in Genesis 2:16-19. Adam relayed the message to Eve about the tree same a Moses relayed the message about the law. Both Adam and Eve knew the sound of God walking in the garden because they had heard it before.
Your quote in post 507 says “I'm going to tell you why you don't remember the pre-existence. If you were completely aware of what happened in the pre-existence, your free will would be put at risk.” My thought is God's purpose in Christ is risk free. If we had the capability to choose right and wrong before natural birth free will wouldn't be at risk. Lucifer had the choice. It's more that choosing between good and evil. It's having the knowledge of the truth to boot.

1 Timothy 2:2-4
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved , and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The entire story of what "angels" are, and how long have they been around, and how were they created and all of that is very sketchy from the scriptures. We believe that angels are spirit beings. We also believe that they are the spirit children of God. You cannot refute that. The word "angel" is simply "messenger" and that leaves lots of room for the Mormon church to interpret angel as a spirit child of God, who uses this spirit child as a messenger at times and it then become an "angel". It leaves lots of room for you to interpret what an "angel" is and I can't refute it either. We can only tell each other what we believe. That's pretty much what we are doing. So thanks for the discussion.
,

Genesis states that Angels (whether fallen or not) are the Sons of God, but the Bible doesn't call them spirit children the same as LDS says we are. Angels are messengers for sure to accomplish the divine plan of God from the beginning. They even sustain and monitor the cycles of heaven and earth in the natural perfect order of God's creation.

Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

We are also messengers of the gospel (good news) after being born again from our natural carnal and fleshly state.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

That message of love, in detail, is written in the law, God using Moses for His messenger. In the new covenant Jesus is the "first born" of many to deliver the completion of the divine plan called salvation. Salvation from certain death.

 

[just-me]

Once again, this is only my own personal viewpoint, but I think as spirit beings before we were born, God made us aware that there would be sin in our lives and we could choose to follow him, or choose to go the way of Satan. I was'nt suggesting that we were prideful from the very beginning. He gave us free will to make our own decisions, so he already knew what path in life we would choose. He also knows we can turn away from the devil anytime, and repent and ask forgiveness and follow Jesus. Ultimately, Satan really has no say, and is most certainly NOT "top dog". He knows what is coming, and what his fate is, and he knows the fate of the saved and the unsaved.

You're ight about Satan. He has only 9 stones in comparison the Christ's 12. You'll have to talk with Daniel606 about what we knew before birth. I've stated my case. He differs from what you indicate. He says we are restricted from knowing what we knew before birth because if we remembered it would put our free will at risk after being naturally born. God bless sis!!

 

[just-me]

This is only my personal opinion, but I believe that since we were born with free will, it kinda makes sense that as spirit beings BEFORE we were born, God allowed us to choose how our lives would go. Some chose an easy life, others chose hard ones, some chose to stay straight, and others chose to have disabilities. And on and on. I believe we also each got to choose how we would die, in other words, be it by natural causes, or murder, heart attack, cancer, etc etc.

​I am NOT saying that this is a fact, it is only my own personal opinion and I have a right to believe it and express it. LOL.

I can't think right off of anything in the bible that would go against that...

*I can if I am reading blue_ladybug correctly. The "free will" is mentioned once in scripture relating to doing what is right in one verse if perceive what is meant here. "I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee." (Ezra 7:14)

well, two things to start... i didn't see any verses that said we don't have free will before birth... I agree there're some that could limit what we can choose... the word pantokrator means all powerful, as you said... though, it sounds like you were using it to mean all knowing...

I respond with

I haven't found any verse that say we do have "free will" before our natural birth either. Omniscient is the word but there is no KJV scripture for that. I used all power in relation. My error.

well, let's see... I wrote that I couldn't think of anything in the bible that would go against free will before birth... you started post 513 with *"I can..."... then I saw verses about free will after birth in some ways... so, if you know of some verses about free will before birth, I'm interested...
to me, PS 139 is talking about God knowing us in great detail... to be honest, I don't see anything that would limit our ability to choose stuff... great talking with you, BTW...

You may have misunderstood the chronology of this issue being addressed.

 

[just-me]

if we have some choice in the matter of what kind of life we'll have at birth, that can solve a lot of questions about why some people are born blind, or into this family instead of that one, and so on...we can say something like 'I chose this plotline before I was born, it's my way of glorifying God'...

from post 507

I'm going to tell you why you don't remember the pre-existence. If you were completely aware of what happened in the pre-existence, your free will would be put at risk.

You'll have to take that one up with Daniel606
I cannot address that. I'm incapable of finding anything in the Bible to say one way or the other cause the Bible doesn't give any answers to that. It seems as though "free will" is in heaven and on earth according to LDS doctrine. Satan had "free will" and started a war in heaven.

Thy kingdom come . Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:10

God's will is perfect in heaven.

 

[Mosiah]

Hi Dan_473 and Daniel606, how do I join your post's and participate in discussion?

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473

say, Daniel, i posted to you about acts 17, God making us all from one blood, physical children...did you see it? did you want to keep talking about that subject?
I've been enjoying our discussion!

Yes. Give me the post # and I will respond. thanks

 

[just-me]

Hi Dan_473 and Daniel606, how do I join your post's and participate in discussion?

I'm ok with it if they are. They're nice guys.

 

[Mosiah]

Hello Everyone,
Has anyone considered Hebrews 12:9? Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

God's will is perfect in heaven.

In the pre-existence God's will was perfect also, but some spirits (Lucifer) chose not to follow God's will. Lucifer used his free will to rebel and there was in fact a war in heaven.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Mosiah

Hello Everyone,
Has anyone considered Hebrews 12:9? Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

That's a very good pre-existence scripture. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Since we are the spirit offspring of God, it is natural to call him our Father in Heaven, he is truly the Father of our spirits.

 

[just-me]

Hello Everyone,
Has anyone considered Hebrews 12:9? Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Good scripture speaking of how a loving father treats His own. If I may I will add the previous 2 verses to that.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

The CJB says it this way
7 Regard your endurance as discipline; God is dealing with you as sons. For what son goes undisciplined by his father?
8 All legitimate sons undergo discipline; so if you don't, you're a *mamzer and not a son!
9 Furthermore, we had physical fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them; how much more should we submit to our spiritual Father and live!
A *mamzer is someone who is either born of adultery by a married Jewish woman and a Jewish man who is not her husband, or born of incest (as defined by the Bible), or someone who has a mamzer as a parent.
I see verse 9 is past tense relating to the physical, and then present relating to the spiritual. Nice verse

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

I'm ok with it if they are. They're nice guys.

That was a Christian thing to do. Thanks for being a good person. I wish you were close enough to meet one day.

 

[Mosiah]

Hi Dan and Daniel,
Has anyone considered Hebrews 12:9...Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

 

[just-me]

That was a Christian thing to do. Thanks for being a good person. I wish you were close enough to meet one day.

I live in Knoxville TN. North of town actually. Where're you liven? PM if you would like.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Mosiah

Hi Dan_473 and Daniel606, how do I join your post's and participate in discussion?

I think you have done it with your post 531. Look forward to your future posts.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

I live in Knoxville TN. Where're you liven? PM if you would like.

I live in SLC, Utah. Some day I will come near enough to Knoxville that I will let you know and look you up. Thanks and look forward to that day. I'll even go with you to your church.

 

[just-me]

Hi Dan and Daniel,
Has anyone considered Hebrews 12:9...Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I did in this post