Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

I will be quoting other scriptures and explaining as we go. You call it when we are ready for the next step.

I am ready for the next installment. Do we know where this incredible breasplate is?

 

[just-me]

I am ready for the next installment. Do we know where this incredible breasplate is?

Not today. Probably disappeared with the stone tablets.
Do you want to know what the stones mean, or do you want to know where the breastplate is?

 

[Dan_473]

.

The scriptrue is clearly defining the order in which all things were created and how salvation works in comparison. The order cannot be changed without messing up the entire plan of salvation.

You wrote, "should we think that God was natural first?" No, we shouldn't because this scripture in 1 Corinthians 15 is describing a "new birth" in Christ, an allegory, using creation as an example. You might have forgotten verse 44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." However one wants to think, it is still proven that the earthly natural (flesh) has been created first, and through Christ the spiritual follows in every case when the children of God are born again. As we know in Genesis the natural is created by the heavenly Spirit of God, and on earth the spiritual is given after the natural is created. Therefore heavenly and earthy are different in explanations given in scripture.

1 Corinthians 15 Verses 48 and 49 which also should be taken in context "As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have (past tense) borne the image of the earthy, we shall (future tense) also bear the image of the heavenly."

With all due respect, your explanation sounds somewhat like an evolution theory. Psalm 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

God is not of a natural body as we are, but the Son became flesh as John describes in John 1:14. Isaiah61:1-3
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted , to proclaim liberty to the captives , and the opening of the prison to them that are bound ;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Jesus said of Himself when reading Isaiah "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted , to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord." (Luke 4:18-19)

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It is clear that God is a Spirit who is not created, and is from everlasting, and to everlasting.

God cannot be physical (natural) for He is invisible according to scripture. When the Bible talks about Moses and others seeing God face to face one must understand that He can show Himself in any manner He desires for His own glory. As children of God through Christ Jesus we should concentrate more on the spiritual aspects of truth rather than the carnal or physical aspects which are very limited in comparison to the grandeur of God Almighty.

1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

well, do you agree that verse 45 is talking about Adam and Jesus? and verse 47, is it talking about Adam and Jesus?

 

[Dan_473]

John 1:1 “word.”
Greek “word”=3056 Yehday yeh-dah'-ee perhaps from a form corresponding to 3061; Judaistic; Jehdai, an Israelite:--Jehdai.
In Hebrew “ Yehday” יָהְדָּי Means “the echoes.”
Particularly, in the “Feast of Tabernacles,” we can find that there were certain measurements of flour mixed with oil to be offered with the Bullock, being an allegory, or comparison, representing the attributes, and sovereignty of Jesus Christ. This measurement was called an “omer” which means promise. Psalm 68:11 The Lord (*Adonai) gave the **word: great was the company of those that published it.
**Word=[FONT=arial, sans-serif]562[FONT=arial, sans-serif] 'omer o'-mer the same as [/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]561[/FONT][FONT=arial, sans-serif]:--promise, speech, thing, word. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]*Lord=[/FONT]136 'Adonay ad-o-noy' am emphatic form of 113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only):--(my) Lord.[FONT=arial, sans-serif]אדוני[/FONT]*
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]א [/FONT]The leader/the beginning
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ד [/FONT]entrance
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ו [/FONT]add
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]ני [/FONT]the heir
*Adonai means “the leader created an entrance to add the heir.”


Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”


James 2:5 Hearken , my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?


In Colossians 1:18 “the firstborn from the dead” clearly defines the resurrection, not Jesus' natural birth.


Our Spiritual life begins with the ”new birth” through Christ Jesus, not before, as we revisit the conversation that Jesus had with Nicodemus. He should have known according to the law and the prophets.


John 3:10 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?”


We should NEVER use the explanations of salvation, that are given in scripture, to explain a spiritual existence before a natural birth, for being born again is the core truth for God's children.

are you responding to me here? if so, when the poet and Paul on the areopagus say Children of God, are they talking about all humans?

 

[just-me]

.

well, do you agree that verse 45 is talking about Adam and Jesus? and verse 47, is it talking about Adam and Jesus?

In essence yes, including the people who believe in Jesus Christ, Him being the firstborn from the dead.

Adam in Greek=76. Adam ad-am' of Hebrew origin (121); Adam, the first man; typically (of Jesus) man (as his representative):--Adam.
Adam in Hebrew=120 'adam aw-dawm' from 119; ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):--X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Adam in Hebrew=121 'Adam aw-dawm' the same as 120; Adam the name of the first man, also of a place in Palestine:--Adam.
119 'adam aw-dam' to show blood (in the face), i.e. flush or turn rosy:--be (dyed, made) red (ruddy).

verse 45 The first man Adam (meaning physical) was made a living soul; the last (final) Adam was made a quickening spirit.
In contest we then read what was first and what came after in verse 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The first Adam is the natural man created, and the second Adam is the spiritual man created through Christ. We can also relate this truth that defines the temple of God made without hands through Jesus Christ.

We heard him say , I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Mark 14:58

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16

For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive.1 Corinthians 15:22

 

[just-me]

are you responding to me here? if so, when the poet and Paul on the areopagus say Children of God, are they talking about all humans?

Give me a scripture reference please, then I can answer according to the word of God rather than assume. Thanks.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

Psalm 45:6-7 is a confirmation of verse 19 in Colossians chapter 1 “*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.”

The only way that Psalms 45:6-7 and John 1:1 makes sense is that God the Father and God the Son are separate and distinct from each other. Then the "Word" (which is another name for Jesus/God the Son) could both be with God and be God at the same time.

In Psalms 45:7 God the Father annionts God the Son/Jesus with the oil of gladness above his fellows. Who are God the Son's "fellows"? Could they be the "sons of God" spoken of by Job in Job 38:7?

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

Not today. Probably disappeared with the stone tablets.
Do you want to know what the stones mean, or do you want to know where the breastplate is?

Now that we know the breastplate is not available, tell me what the stones mean. Very interesting.

 

[Dan_473]

We are not children of God until after we are born again. I would say the phase "we are children of God by being born again through Jesus" differently like this. "We become the children of God when we are born again through Jesus"

As you quoted me "The Spirit of *adoption says it all." Romans 8:15

looking forward to reading your comments on Paul at the areopagus, then...

 

[just-me]

are you responding to me here? if so, when the poet and Paul on the areopagus say Children of God, are they talking about all humans?

Beatcha to the punch LOL
Lets' take a good look at this and you will see that it clearly complements what I have been saying about being reborn in Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:19-28
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying , May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest , is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean .
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell , or to hear some new thing.)
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said , Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by , and beheld your devotions , I found an altar with this inscription , TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship , him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein , seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, *dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed , and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him , though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live , and move , and have our being ; as certain also of your own poets have said , For we are also his offspring.

Poets are plural, Paul stating that these were performers that said they were made by the unknown God that they worshipped.
Poets=4163. poietes poy-ay-tace' from 4160; a performer; specially, a "poet"; --doer, poet.
Offspring means "kin."

*I mentioned these scriptures prevously that relate to verse 24

Mark 14:58 We heard him say , I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

1 Corinthians 9:16 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive , because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry , Abba, Father.

Acts 17:24 relate perfectly with all the scriptures above. *dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

 

[just-me]

Now that we know the breastplate is not available, tell me what the stones mean. Very interesting.

Read this post here before reading the following
Read EZEKIEL 28: 11-19 Satan rules Tyrus, and EZEKIEL 26:2-15
The sea represents the world. Think about it all as related to this day we are living in.

Before describing the attributes of our adversary I MUST clarify that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah) has all power. As you read the following, please keep this in mind, for it will be your comfort, and give you peace of mind. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Attributes of Azazel (Satan/Lucifer) how he uses his power after being cast out of heaven.

1.Sadius-Had the power (emphasize HAD) to maintain God’s creation but not to change the principles of the established cycles of perfection. (Ephesians 6:12)

2.Topaz-curiosity i.e. the instigation of evolution, extra terrestrial space ships, mysticism, UFOs and etc.
(Ephesians 4:14, 2 Peter 2:16)

3.Diamond-Repeats God’s Word in order to entice a person into disobedience.
(2 Corinthians 11:14-15, Luke 4:2-13)

4.Beryl-The power to interfere with a believers mission.
(1 Thessalonians 2:18)

5.Onyx-the understanding of the creation of the physical/natural in detail. If the law isn’t seen spiritually it is of no use.
(Matthew 16:2-4, Galatians 3:19, John 5:44-47, John 8:42-45)

6.Jasper-the power to entice with fleshly attractiveness.
(1 John 2:16-17)

7.Sapphire-the capability to instigate a desire, and planning in detail how to achieve it through manipulation.
(Isaiah 32:6-7) Churl-KJV-that act of withholding information. Our administration in Washington. This is serious and blatant to the true believer in Messiah Yeshua

8.Emerald-the capability to readjust (temporarily) the balance of the universe
(Revelation 13:6-14)

9.Carbuncle-has complete understanding of the 5 senses of the human being henceforth altering perceptions of our natural world by instructing in a distorted manner, defining those distortions as common sense decisions.
(Matthew 24:24)

Keeping in mind Matthew 28:18-20, Our Savior overrides these powers of evil for those that pursue His salvation in fear, prayer, and loving Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. There are 3 stones belonging to our Savior that Azazel does NOT have.

10. Ligure- The power to redeem (Romans 3:21-26)

11. Agate- The power to separate in every detail (Hebrews 4:9-14)

12. Amethyst- The power to fulfill and lead (Matthew 5:17)

Loud and clear is our message to the world until we die (Joshua 24:15 and 16)

 

[just-me]

to me, this is an excellent example of how the same term is used differently in different parts of the bible... I agree that we are children of God by being born again through Jesus... Paul and the poet also say we are *children of God, and they seem to be talking about all humans...

looking forward to reading your comments on Paul at the areopagus, then...

There is no reference to *children of God in Acts 17:19-28
Maybe you are referring to these 2 verses
If so, we see in verse 27 that there is a stipulation in order to be adopted into the kingdom
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him , though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live , and move , and have our being ; as certain also of your own poets have said , For we are also his offspring.

 

[just-me]

to me, this is an excellent example of how the same term is used differently in different parts of the bible... I agree that we are children of God by being born again through Jesus... Paul and the poet also say we are children of God, and
they seem to be talking about all humans...

Acts 17:28-29 "For in him we live , and move , and have our being ; as certain also of your own poets have said , For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

offspring=Greek 1085. genos ghen'-os from 1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):--born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.
Hebrew 6631 tse'etsa' tseh-ets-aw' from 3318; issue, i.e. produce, children:--that which cometh forth (out), offspring.

It is clear that Paul is advising the people at Athens that this "unknown God" they so ignorantly worship is not like other Gods of man made objects. Along with that, Paul makes it clear where God Almighty dwells in verse 24, as I mentioned before. You ever wonder why Paul mentions both them (by mentioning the poets) and himself as offspring of God created by their unknown God? The people at Athens were practicing the worshiping of idols and they had nothing to identify with the Creator of all things. That's why they didn't know any better until Paul came.

Years ago, as a Sunday school teacher, I heard a very intelligent man tell me that "in order for people to understand what you are presenting, you first must relate to them about what they already knew." The people at Athens had no idea how they were made, but they knew they were formed (being born naturally) by some entity other than themselves.

Paul said that his ministry involved becoming all things to all people in order to proclaim the gospel. In this case he definitely wasn't teaching about "spirit children" of the past, his ministry was teaching how to become "children of God."

Consider these verses when reading about Paul's teaching and the poets at mars hill at Areopagus in Athens.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

[just-me]

In Psalms 45:7 God the Father annionts God the Son/Jesus with the oil of gladness above his fellows. Who are God the Son's "fellows"? Could they be the "sons of God" spoken of by Job in Job 38:7?

Yes. They are angels not "spirit children" waiting to be conceived and born as natural babies. I know what you're thinking and you know what I beleive. Why ask? LOL

Psalm 45:7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

fellows=2270 chaber khaw-bare' from 2266; an associate:--companion, fellow, knit together.
הבר the bar associates
This Hebrew word is relating to those reaching out to obtain the truth of the spirit that was in the beginning within the realm of heaven. None of the Angels have as many stones as Christ Jesus.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

There is no reference to *children of God in Acts 17:19-28

If I am an offspring of God, as the scripture says, I am not his horse, I am not his chicken, I am obviously his child (children of God). The idea of being an offspring of God has everthing to do with being literally children of God.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

fellows=2270 chaber khaw-bare' from 2266; an associate:--companion, fellow, knit together.
הבר the bar associates
This Hebrew word is relating to those reaching out to obtain the truth of the spirit that was in the beginning within the realm of heaven. None of the Angels have as many stones as Christ Jesus.

So from fellows=2270 chaber khaw-bare' from 2266; an associate of Jesus, companions of Jesus, a fellow of Jesus, knit together by some cause with Jesus, I absolutely agree.

This Hebrew word is related to....?????? The explanation of what this Hebrew word is related to must have come from some mystic shaman that was smoking peyote, because it has nothing to do with what the normal use of the word "fellows" is used for. So whatever source you got what the Hebrew word fellows relates to, give it up.

It does not say they are angels, so my interpretation is as good as yours, if it be within reason. They very well could have been the sons of God in Job. Jesus was a son of God. The fellows apparantly were on the same level as Jesus as an associate is. However, Jesus was given a little more than they, in that he was annointed with the oil of gladness above his associates. Jesus was also the firstborn among them and was perfectly sinless. He was also the only begotten son of God in the flesh. So Jesus had some things going that would move him to a much higher level than his fellow associates, but still they existed and knew him and they were associates before the world was created.

Your stones theory is interesting, but I will have to study that and you will have to clarify it some more. More on that later.

 

[just-me]

So from fellows=2270 chaber khaw-bare' from 2266; an associate of Jesus, companions of Jesus, a fellow of Jesus, knit together by some cause with Jesus, I absolutely agree.

This Hebrew word is related to....?????? The explanation of what this Hebrew word is related to must have come from some mystic shaman that was smoking peyote, because it has nothing to do with what the normal use of the word "fellows" is used for. So whatever source you got what the Hebrew word fellows relates to, give it up.

It does not say they are angels, so my interpretation is as good as yours, if it be within reason. They very well could have been the sons of God in Job. Jesus was a son of God. The fellows apparantly were on the same level as Jesus as an associate is. However, Jesus was given a little more than they, in that he was annointed with the oil of gladness above his associates. Jesus was also the firstborn among them and was perfectly sinless. He was also the only begotten son of God in the flesh. So Jesus had some things going that would move him to a much higher level than his fellow associates, but still they existed and knew him and they were associates before the world was created.

Your stones theory is interesting, but I will have to study that and you will have to clarify it some more. More on that later.

It would do you well to study the Hebrew language. It is obvious that you have not been privy to it in your learning. I'll give you some links to help you.

Success | .xyz Domain Names | Join Generation XYZ

Hebrew alphabet chart
Biblical Numerics

That's good for starters. It is also beneficial to use a Strong's Concordance. In the Old Testament writings it gives the pictorial Hebrew spelling. Hebrew is 4 dimensional unlike any other language. Abraham is noted for the language.

 

[just-me]

If I am an offspring of God, as the scripture says, I am not his horse, I am not his chicken, I am obviously his child (children of God). The idea of being an offspring of God has everthing to do with being literally children of God.

You are only a child of God through Christ. Jesus speaks to those who have already born naturally.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by just-me

3.Diamond-Repeats God’s Word in order to entice a person into disobedience.
(2 Corinthians 11:14-15, Luke 4:2-13)

I'm not sure who gave the definition of "Diamond-Repeats God's Word in order to entice a person into isobedience."

Diamond is one of the stones in the breastplate, but who gave it this definition?

What does what you have posted do with the stones on the breastplage?

What does what you have posted do with how many stones Jesus has and how many satan has?

 

[just-me]

If I am an offspring of God, as the scripture says, I am not his horse, I am not his chicken, I am obviously his child (children of God). The idea of being an offspring of God has everthing to do with being literally children of God.

Well, my friend, I'm not trying to convince you that you were not conceived before natural conception. You might be trying to convince me that we were conceived spiritually before being conceived naturally.

I am saying that every scripture that I read about the sons of God or children of God have to do with either angels who were not naturally conceived, or those like you and me who are naturally conceived, and have responded to the opportunity offered by God to become His children through Christ Jesus.

I am presenting scripture that relates to being born again by the spirit of God. If we concentrate on spirit children, we miss the biggest point of salvation by using those scriptures trying to prove the existence of spirit children rather than being offered salvation after our natural birth. We are born again once, not twice. That's all I'm presenting. We should be concentrating on this life in Christ that can be proven rather than a previous life before natural conception that cannot be proven.

The doctrine of "spirit children" complements Calvinism, just to let you know.