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If that be the case then you should stop posting here. Because then we also don't need an ounce of education either; so don't tell us anything -- we don't need your education, just our King Jimmy!
But as for me, since I believe God's word (which was published before there ever was any English language), I need teachers, because teachers are a spiritual gift to the church, and we ought not to despise spiritual gifts.
O
OnlyJesusSaves
Guest
1 Corinthians 14-[SUP]34[/SUP] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[SUP]35[/SUP] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
[SUP]35[/SUP] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
B
biscuit
Guest
Women in ministry?
First of all, I hope this thread doesn't assume that there are 2 kinds of persons in the church:
1) ministers & 2) laymen. I don't find that in scripture. What I find is that everyone (male & female) has at least one spiritual gift, which he should exercise.
Eph 4 says that the regular Christians are supposed to do the work of the ministry.
I like the ASV of Ps 68:
"The Lord giveth the word:
The women that publish the tidings are a great host.
12 Kings of armies flee, they flee;
And she that tarrieth at home divideth the spoil."
Women, however, are told in context of the assembly, to wear head covering, and keep silence there, also not to exercise authority over men or teach them in the church.(1 Cor 11-14).
We are seeing lots of strange incense today.
As far as I am concerned, a woman can preach all she wants to other women & children in the church, and also in public to the unsaved, if they have the gift of Evangelism. They can get on radio & preach to the unsaved or to Christian women (not their fault if men listen).
First of all, I hope this thread doesn't assume that there are 2 kinds of persons in the church:
1) ministers & 2) laymen. I don't find that in scripture. What I find is that everyone (male & female) has at least one spiritual gift, which he should exercise.
Eph 4 says that the regular Christians are supposed to do the work of the ministry.
I like the ASV of Ps 68:
"The Lord giveth the word:
The women that publish the tidings are a great host.
12 Kings of armies flee, they flee;
And she that tarrieth at home divideth the spoil."
Women, however, are told in context of the assembly, to wear head covering, and keep silence there, also not to exercise authority over men or teach them in the church.(1 Cor 11-14).
We are seeing lots of strange incense today.
As far as I am concerned, a woman can preach all she wants to other women & children in the church, and also in public to the unsaved, if they have the gift of Evangelism. They can get on radio & preach to the unsaved or to Christian women (not their fault if men listen).
E
elf3
Guest
Angela I would like to kind of explain my belief to you as I believe the Bible teaches. The best way I can explain it is by R. C. Sproul's book "Now that's a good question" (page 346). This is about 1 Tim 2:12 "..I think what Paul is saying is that women can be involved in all kinds of functions of ministry in the church but that the role of juridical authority or of governing authority is not to be held by women." I apologize if I kind of came on harsh or made myself misunderstood.
E
elf3
Guest
Are you sure you would like to 'contend' on this topic? I can take time out to provide many Scriptures. It's telling to me that in spite of my sharing God's equality between male and female, you still took offense. Tell me: what is it exactly that you want me to tell you? Everything is contained in the Bible, and I can find for you what you are looking for. God does not call women ahead of men; He calls men first and then women. There were no female apostles among the Twelve; but there was a female apostle named among the post-ascension apostles (Junia). If this isn't sufficient for you, then tell me the issue you have with God's order, or ask me what exactly it is you want me to produce or support.
The man is first and always will be; there is no change and will be no change in that until the end of time. Just like there are many called to ministry who won't wait until the time but run prematurely into ministry positions, so there are women who can't wait and don't want to wait for God's timing to release women into ministry and want to run ahead of time and occupy positions that God has not given them. Nothing good ever comes of this, ever. It seems to me that I am more in support of women in ministry than you are. So, let's talk. What's the issue?
R
Revelator7
Guest
Galatains 3:28 talks about there being neither male nor female in Christ. The context there is in the belonging to the Lord, not in positions or ranks in the Church. That salvation is for all, not roles in the church ministry.
With the constant battle between the sexes today, of course this issue would be a hot one still. Again (and maybe I should have this as a signature), I want to remind Christians to not only take note of what the Bible is saying but somewhat more importantly what it is showing. The Bible says a lot, so we just read and tend to miss what it actually shows. Here are some examples:
1. The Bible says that all the cities of the plain (Sodom, etc.) were destroyed; but it shows that one (which Lot later named 'Zoar') was not destroyed.
2. The Bible says that Jesus heals people according to their faith; but it shows Jesus healing people who had no faith.
There are many more examples; the important thing is that you can't get all that the Bible is saying if you're just reading what it's saying; you have to look close (like Moses did at the burning bush) and realize what it is showing you (i.e. what it is really saying). Jesus said several times, "You have heard that it was said... but I tell you..." He wasn't changing but fulfilling or perfecting what was said in the past. The Bible says one thing and then perfects (completes it) by showing something that seems different. The fuller truth is in what the Bible shows, not just what it says. In the OT, women didn't seem to be allowed to own lands or inheritances or teach or minister; then we see women like Zelophehad's daughters, Caleb's daughter, Job's daughters (all these gaining lands and inheritances alongside their brothers and other men), Deborah (a powerful apostolic woman who was a prophetess), Huldah, Miriam, Noadiah (all OT), Anna, Phillip's daughters, Priscilla, Junia, and several others (NT).
All writers in the Bible (even the ones who don't have their own books but wrote parts of Books like King Nebuchadnezzar and several others) were male, and all the first apostles and the seventy-two disciples sent out to do Jesus' works were male. But females have a place in ministry alongside males. Paul says he doesn't allow women to teach; i.e. to have authority over a male. He was talking about heart attitudes all around which was why he included "to have authority" over men. Paul said that when the whole church comes together, that everyone who has a teaching or prophecy (etc.) can share. He did not say only men but all. If the Bible says women can't teach over men but the Bible shows that women can teach, what can we deduce from this? This: when women minister, they can minister to men, but they can only exercise authority over women. In the same way, the woman's husband, not the pastor or minister, exercises authority over his wife in that he teaches/explains Scripture to him. The minister teaches and she listens; but she doesn't ask him and he explains; when she asks, she asks her husband whose knowledge will be sufficient for her (because the position between a woman and a pastor where she asks his advice and he gives it to her is an intimate one which can lead to sin (and has many times), and God knew ahead of time). It is a rebellious spirit that the Bible is curtailing in saying that women should have no authority over men. When Jesus arrived in the Church at Thyatira, He saw the rebellion that can quickly manifest when women teach over (or in the place of) men.
1. The Bible says that all the cities of the plain (Sodom, etc.) were destroyed; but it shows that one (which Lot later named 'Zoar') was not destroyed.
2. The Bible says that Jesus heals people according to their faith; but it shows Jesus healing people who had no faith.
There are many more examples; the important thing is that you can't get all that the Bible is saying if you're just reading what it's saying; you have to look close (like Moses did at the burning bush) and realize what it is showing you (i.e. what it is really saying). Jesus said several times, "You have heard that it was said... but I tell you..." He wasn't changing but fulfilling or perfecting what was said in the past. The Bible says one thing and then perfects (completes it) by showing something that seems different. The fuller truth is in what the Bible shows, not just what it says. In the OT, women didn't seem to be allowed to own lands or inheritances or teach or minister; then we see women like Zelophehad's daughters, Caleb's daughter, Job's daughters (all these gaining lands and inheritances alongside their brothers and other men), Deborah (a powerful apostolic woman who was a prophetess), Huldah, Miriam, Noadiah (all OT), Anna, Phillip's daughters, Priscilla, Junia, and several others (NT).
All writers in the Bible (even the ones who don't have their own books but wrote parts of Books like King Nebuchadnezzar and several others) were male, and all the first apostles and the seventy-two disciples sent out to do Jesus' works were male. But females have a place in ministry alongside males. Paul says he doesn't allow women to teach; i.e. to have authority over a male. He was talking about heart attitudes all around which was why he included "to have authority" over men. Paul said that when the whole church comes together, that everyone who has a teaching or prophecy (etc.) can share. He did not say only men but all. If the Bible says women can't teach over men but the Bible shows that women can teach, what can we deduce from this? This: when women minister, they can minister to men, but they can only exercise authority over women. In the same way, the woman's husband, not the pastor or minister, exercises authority over his wife in that he teaches/explains Scripture to him. The minister teaches and she listens; but she doesn't ask him and he explains; when she asks, she asks her husband whose knowledge will be sufficient for her (because the position between a woman and a pastor where she asks his advice and he gives it to her is an intimate one which can lead to sin (and has many times), and God knew ahead of time). It is a rebellious spirit that the Bible is curtailing in saying that women should have no authority over men. When Jesus arrived in the Church at Thyatira, He saw the rebellion that can quickly manifest when women teach over (or in the place of) men.
I just finished reading your article here: http://robhanley.blog.com/. It all seems to run together (agree, be right), but I need understanding on this one point: women in ministerial offices. You said that women can't be apostles, prophets, etc. There are females in the OT who stand in the office of prophet (such as Miriam and Deborah) as well as function apostolically (Deborah) just as some OT men who stood in the office of prophet (such as Moses and Isaiah) also functioned apostolically (Moses and Abraham). I know there are different types of ministry functions; is this a case of that? For example, Elijah was a prophet who moved in miracles, but John the Baptist who came in the spirit of Elijah was also a prophet who neither prophesied like the OT prophets nor performed miracles but was still called a prophet. Abraham and Job are also called prophets though they really didn't prophesy; then the OT also had the term 'seer'. Here, we see there are different functions of prophets or that different prophets can have totally different functions.
What I've seen so far in the NT is that women can have ministry offices (or maybe I should say ministry functions) but not over men. The function of at least two of the seven deacons of the early Church was both apostolic and evangelistic, but they were neither apostles nor evangelists but deacons (they had no five-fold office ministry). Is this akin to women functioning with the ministerial Grace of the five-fold ministries but not being in the actual 'office' of ministry? Is it about the actual Greek terms used in Eph. 4? Important thing is that the Lord and the Spirit will confirm any genuine minister's authenticity whether male or female as every truth is established on the testimony of two or three. I guess the hard part is defining what kind of minister a person is or isn't. In any case, God's ways and order not only work perfectly but make perfect sense. As His ways and order are explained (unfolded), only the rebellious will find themselves disagreeing with it.
I agree with this importantly:
"The world has a hard time believing that Christians are legit in their knowledge. They look at us through a microscope and examine everything. The world can easily see when we are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible we want to believe in and put into practice. It’s difficult when unbelievers see that we also have arguments and debates over things in the faith. If we just took the Bible at its word and stayed firm with what it says in it, the world would give us more respect and credibility. Christian debates are not godly, they are not peaceful. The truth (God’s Word) stands alone, no body can put an opinion on it. If we just applied ourselves to stick with the truth (by heeding everything the Bible says) then outsiders have more confidence in us."
K
Kaycie
Guest
Older women are to teach the younger women. (Titus 2:4)
Women are to be silent during the sermon. (1 Timothy 2:12)
Women are not to teach over the men of the congregation. (1 Timothy 2:12)
All Christians including women are to teach (evangelize) wolrdly people. (Galatians 3:28, Revelation 1:6, Matthew 28:18-20)
Women are to be silent during the sermon. (1 Timothy 2:12)
Women are not to teach over the men of the congregation. (1 Timothy 2:12)
All Christians including women are to teach (evangelize) wolrdly people. (Galatians 3:28, Revelation 1:6, Matthew 28:18-20)
Luke 2:36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,
Acts 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
No Angela, the Byzantine texts are the pure texts. They are not the corrupted ones.
You have been lied to for so long in the seminary and by the heretical Alexandrian mindset that you have it backwards when it comes to the Bible Version Issue and with the Issue of the text types.
You claim that you know your "Bible" (singular) better than me.
Let me ask you Angela, what Bible is that?
What English Bible do you submit to?
I strongly doubt that you know what you are talking about when it comes to the Bible Version Issue. You recommend James White's book. And James White is a fraud and a habitual LIAR, which by the way I have shown that to be the case many times.
On the other hand: Brother Peter Ruckman knows the Bible Version Issue very well. And he also knows Greek well.
It's interesting though how you did not regard my mention of John Dean William Burgon.
Why is that? Could it be because you know that Dean Burgon's books refute your position on the Bible Version Issue?
You Alexandrians sure do love to talk about"education" and "scholarship."
Well okay then. Why don't you all go and buy several books by Dean Burgon and that way you all can be correctly educated on the Bible Version Issue as well as the Issue of the different text types.
Instead of being deceived and misled by Alexandrian apostates and LIARS such as James White.
Angela to tell the truth if I were you I wouldn't waste my time responding to this person. I think it's pretty obvious they don't have your education so they can't quite debate you.you know..just saying
elf3, Angela has already been shown to be wrong on her view point about women being pastors.
Women cannot be pastors, the Bible does not permit it.
Angela has to go to "the Greek" in order to explain away clear passages like 1 Timothy 2:11-15, 1 Timothy 3:1-14 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-40.
Remember that "education" and "scholarship" are not the Final Authority on any issue or Doctrinal matter.
The Holy Bible is the Final Authority.
And like I said; Angela has already been shown the Biblical truth on this issue. And if she continues in her error and if she continually chooses not to repent of her error, then her heart will only get more hardened. And as a result, she will get more indignant and resentful each time she hears the solid Biblical truth on this matter.
I am doing this purely for the sake of arguement! But for those of you who believe in women Pastors, please explain this to me:
1 Peter 3:1 (KJV)
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Now, Hebrews 13:17 is referring to Pastors. They are the ones that have the rule over us and they are the ones that must give an account for our souls. So it tells us to submit to our Pastor. Yet 1 Peter 3:1 tells the wives to submit to their husbands. And then 1 Cor 11:3 says that the man is the head of the woman. This is obviously a hierarchy of the flow of spiritual authority. So if you have a woman Pastor, and she and her husband disagree on an issue, who is the final authority?
1 Peter 3:1 (KJV)
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Now, Hebrews 13:17 is referring to Pastors. They are the ones that have the rule over us and they are the ones that must give an account for our souls. So it tells us to submit to our Pastor. Yet 1 Peter 3:1 tells the wives to submit to their husbands. And then 1 Cor 11:3 says that the man is the head of the woman. This is obviously a hierarchy of the flow of spiritual authority. So if you have a woman Pastor, and she and her husband disagree on an issue, who is the final authority?
E
Ecclesiastik
Guest
Don't worry about what pretty much every Bible (Italian, Spanish, English, French, etc) says. Worry about what about two of the people in this thread translation of what the Bible says.
At least that is what I'm hearing from this thread. It's bonkers. People have really stepped off the trail from following Christ when they can no longer rely on plainly reading the word of God and following it. They have to twist it to fit their own desires and wants. Folks be molding their gods like Egyptian crocodiles and twisting His word. They should be ashamed.
Thanks for posting God's word.