John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

[Alligator]

It's explain away. Regardless that John's baptism was temporary, you stated in a different post that John's "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" meant that his baptism obtained the remission of sins. The thief placed his faith in Christ for salvation yet was unable to get water baptized before he died. Period. So people were getting water baptized before and after the death of Jesus. How were people saved before Jesus died? Through BELIEVING in Him. (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). How are people saved after the death of Jesus? Through BELIEVING in Him (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4;5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..)

False. Well that's what the scripture says. it also says John's primary purpose was to prepare people for the commons Messiah.. And he promptly baptized Christ. You keep,saying that the thief was not baptized. You don't know any such thing. Your making a big assumption here.

There is another point you are missing here. Let's assume the thief was not baptized. Jesus, while on earth, could do what was needed and what was wanted, including the forgiveness of sins by simply speaking the word. WMatthew 9:6King James Version (KJV)

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Also see Luke 5:20; 7:47 and 7:49. In some of these examples they apparently didn't repent of their sins but Jesus saw something in their heart that we could not.

 

[mailmandan]

False. Well that's what the scripture says. it also says John's primary purpose was to prepare people for the commons Messiah.. And he promptly baptized Christ.

Are these verses false? (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) How were people saved before Jesus died? Through BELIEVING in Him. This applies to the thief. How are people saved after the death of Jesus? Through BELIEVING in Him (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4;5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..). What happened to baptism?

You keep,saying that the thief was not baptized. You don't know any such thing. Your making a big assumption here.

It's a big assumption to assume that the thief was already saved and water baptized. So you believe that that thief may have been converted, was water baptized, and the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasp​hemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

There is another point you are missing here. Let's assume the thief was not baptized.

Got to cover all the bases? If he was, then x,y,z. If he wasn't, then x,y,z.

Jesus, while on earth, could do what was needed and what was wanted, including the forgiveness of sins by simply speaking the word. WMatthew 9:6King James Version (KJV)

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Also see Luke 5:20; 7:47 and 7:49. In some of these examples they apparently didn't repent of their sins but Jesus saw something in their heart that we could not.

I see you are desperately trying to explain away the thief on the cross in order to defend your water gospel at all costs. Whatever it takes!

 

[Alligator]

Are these verses false? (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) How were people saved before Jesus died? Through BELIEVING in Him. This applies to the thief. How are people saved after the death of Jesus? Through BELIEVING in Him (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4;5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..). What happened to baptism?


It's a big assumption to assume that the thief was already saved and water baptized. So you believe that that thief may have been converted, was water baptized, and the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? In Matthew 27:39-43, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blasp​hemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.



Got to cover all the bases? If he was, then x,y,z. If he wasn't, then x,y,z.



I see you are desperately trying to explain away the thief on the cross in order to defend your water gospel at all costs. Whatever it takes!

what happened to baptism? Nothing? It's still there. Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 22:16; etc, etc. You just cherry pick to use only those scriptures that you think helps your case.

Desperately trying to explain away, are you serious? You are simply frustrated because you can't prove your theory by the thief on the cross and I'm not going to just set here and let you get by with it. I'm doing just what any good defense lawyer worth his salt would do.

 

[notuptome]

what happened to baptism? Nothing? It's still there. Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 22:16; etc, etc. You just cherry pick to use only those scriptures that you think helps your case.

Desperately trying to explain away, are you serious? You are simply frustrated because you can't prove your theory by the thief on the cross and I'm not going to just set here and let you get by with it. I'm doing just what any good defense lawyer worth his salt would do.

And that would be to twist things to represent your side of the story and at the cost of the truth.

The Judge has already ruled. The only baptism that saves is the baptism that only Christ can administer. The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the washing of regeneration. Titus 3:5

Your salt has lost it's savor having been contaminated by the works of men. All the scriptures you cite only support the case for Holy Spirit baptism alone as salvitic.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Alligator]

And that would be to twist things to represent your side of the story and at the cost of the truth.

The Judge has already ruled. The only baptism that saves is the baptism that only Christ can administer. The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the washing of regeneration. Titus 3:5

Your salt has lost it's savor having been contaminated by the works of men. All the scriptures you cite only support the case for Holy Spirit baptism alone as salvitic.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It's not good enough to simply accuse me of teaching error, you have to SHOW ME. All Christians receive the Holy Spirit upon conversion, but that's not the same thing as receiving the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit. What about the eunuch? He went down into the water, he was water baptized. And just before His ascension, Christ issued the Great Commission to the apostles in Matt. 28. They were to baptize. Read it. They were to administer water baptism. Man can not administer Holy Spirit baptism, only Christ. To believe this is Holy Spirit baptism would mean that Christ gave a command to the apostles that they couldn't perform.

 

[mailmandan]

what happened to baptism? Nothing? It's still there. Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 22:16; etc, etc.

It's not there in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,49,47; 11:25,26. In Acts 2:38, repent is connected with remission of sins and baptism is parenthetical. Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. That's in harmony with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31. You need to harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

In Mark 16:16, it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation, not the lack of baptism. In Acts 22:16, The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, translated "calling on His name" refers either to action that is simultaneous with or before that of the main verb, "be baptized." Here Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. The participle may be translated "having called on His name" which makes more sense, as it would clearly indicate the order of the events. It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to water baptism.

You just cherry pick to use only those scriptures that you think helps your case.

That is exactly what you are doing and now you are forced to either take your handful of verses that "on the surface" appear to teach salvation through baptism and "patch them together" with the multitude of verses that make it crystal clear we are saved through believing in Him/faith "apart from additions or modifications" or else try to "shoe horn" baptism into believing in Him/faith in order to accommodate your theology. Of course, both of those methods of interpretation amount to flawed hermeneutics.

Desperately trying to explain away, are you serious?

Very serious. It's painfully obvious.

You are simply frustrated because you can't prove your theory by the thief on the cross and I'm not going to just set here and let you get by with it. I'm doing just what any good defense lawyer worth his salt would do.

I'm not frustrated at all and I clearly proved my case. As I already stated in post #102 - It's a big assumption to assume that the thief was already saved and water baptized. Being crucified as a thief is not the fruit of repentance/faith. Neither is blaspheming, mocking, and shaking your head at Jesus (Matthew 27:39-43). Do you really believe that being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus is the fruit of repentance/faith? But moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, the thief died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

Even a good defense lawyer can't refute these facts.

 

[Alligator]

It's not there in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,49,47; 11:25,26. In Acts 2:38, repent is connected with remission of sins and baptism is parenthetical. Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. That's in harmony with Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31. You need to harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

In Mark 16:16, it's the lack of belief that causes condemnation, not the lack of baptism. In Acts 22:16, The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, translated "calling on His name" refers either to action that is simultaneous with or before that of the main verb, "be baptized." Here Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. The participle may be translated "having called on His name" which makes more sense, as it would clearly indicate the order of the events. It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to water baptism.



That is exactly what you are doing and now you are forced to either take your handful of verses that "on the surface" appear to teach salvation through baptism and "patch them together" with the multitude of verses that make it crystal clear we are saved through believing in Him/faith "apart from additions or modifications" or else try to "shoe horn" baptism into believing in Him/faith in order to accommodate your theology. Of course, both of those methods of interpretation amount to flawed hermeneutics.



Very serious. It's painfully obvious.



I'm not frustrated at all and I clearly proved my case. As I already stated in post #102 - It's a big assumption to assume that the thief was already saved and water baptized. Being crucified as a thief is not the fruit of repentance/faith. Neither is blaspheming, mocking, and shaking your head at Jesus (Matthew 27:39-43). Do you really believe that being crucified as a thief, blasheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus is the fruit of repentance/faith? But moments later, we see that the thief had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, the thief died before having the opportunity to be water baptized.

Even a good defense lawyer can't refute these facts.

you say patching together, rather I'm taking into account all scriptures and you are not.

You claim I'm distorting scriptures, then you turn around and accuse Luke of failing to tell the scribes that they were supposed to make it clear that baptism was a parenthetical expression, how ridiculous. That's the epitome of twisting scripture.

You know what, this may shock you but for the record I don't believe the thief was baptized either, although I can't prove it either way. I rather suspect that he was one of those cases I mentioned earlier where Jesus simply spoke the word and the sinner was forgiven.

 

[mailmandan]

you say patching together, rather I'm taking into account all scriptures and you are not.

I am taking into account all scriptures and then harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion. You are simply patching all of these verses together to create salvation through faith (your definition of faith) + water baptism. Is salvation through faith + water baptism what we find in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,49,47; 11:25,26; Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31 and many other verses in the Bible? NO! Something has to give. There are no contradictions in the Word of God. If you read John 3:16 to a child, would they say we must be water baptized to be saved? What about Ephesians 2:8,9?

You claim I'm distorting scriptures, then you turn around and accuse Luke of failing to tell the scribes that they were supposed to make it clear that baptism was a parenthetical expression, how ridiculous. That's the epitome of twisting scripture.

You are distorting scripture by trying to force the rest of scripture to "conform" to your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38. Isn't Acts 3:19 clear enough for you? Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. What happened to baptism? What about Acts 10:43-47? Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. These Gentiles believed in Him, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (spiritual gift for the body of Christ only 1 Corinthians 12) BEFORE water baptism (vs. 48). Acts 11:17 says God gave them the same gift when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (before water baptism) (Acts 11:18 describes this as repentance unto life) and Acts 16:31 says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 15:8-9 says God gave them Holy Spirit and purified their hearts by faith. The epitome of twisting these scriptures is reducing the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45,47; 11:17 to merely the gift of tongues and teaching that receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, remission of sins, purified hearts were not accomplished through believing in Him/faith but water baptism.

You know what, this may shock you but for the record I don't believe the thief was baptized either, although I can't prove it either way.

Being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking his head at Jesus is proof enough for me that the thief was not saved and received water baptism prior to his crucifixion. That is certainly not the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet his words in Luke 23:40-42 demonstrate the fruit of repentance/faith, just prior to his death on the cross.

I rather suspect that he was one of those cases I mentioned earlier where Jesus simply spoke the word and the sinner was forgiven.

The thief was forgiven based on what though? Repentance/faith, just as we are forgiven on the same basis. We must change our mind and trust exclusively in Jesus for salvation--believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved/repentance unto life. Trusting in "water and works" for salvation is not trusting in Jesus. Whatever we are trusting in to save us, that's what we believe/have faith in for salvation. I am trusting exclusively in Jesus for salvation and not water and works. Jesus needs no supplements.

 

[Alligator]

I am taking into account all scriptures and then harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion. You are simply patching all of these verses together to create salvation through faith (your definition of faith) + water baptism. Is salvation through faith + water baptism what we find in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,49,47; 11:25,26; Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31 and many other verses in the Bible? NO! Something has to give. There are no contradictions in the Word of God. If you read John 3:16 to a child, would they say we must be water baptized to be saved? What about Ephesians 2:8,9?



You are distorting scripture by trying to force the rest of scripture to "conform" to your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38. Isn't Acts 3:19 clear enough for you? Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. What happened to baptism? What about Acts 10:43-47? Whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. These Gentiles believed in Him, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues (spiritual gift for the body of Christ only 1 Corinthians 12) BEFORE water baptism (vs. 48). Acts 11:17 says God gave them the same gift when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ (before water baptism) (Acts 11:18 describes this as repentance unto life) and Acts 16:31 says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 15:8-9 says God gave them Holy Spirit and purified their hearts by faith. The epitome of twisting these scriptures is reducing the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45,47; 11:17 to merely the gift of tongues and teaching that receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, remission of sins, purified hearts were not accomplished through believing in Him/faith but water baptism.



Being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking his head at Jesus is proof enough for me that the thief was not saved and received water baptism prior to his crucifixion. That is certainly not the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet his words in Luke 23:40-42 demonstrate the fruit of repentance/faith, just prior to his death on the cross.



The thief was forgiven based on what though? Repentance/faith, just as we are forgiven on the same basis. We must change our mind and trust exclusively in Jesus for salvation--believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved/repentance unto life. Trusting in "water and works" for salvation is not trusting in Jesus. Whatever we are trusting in to save us, that's what we believe/have faith in for salvation. I am trusting exclusively in Jesus for salvation and not water and works. Jesus needs no supplements.

I am not going to beat this dead horse any longer , since anything I say would be redundant. I do want to address your last paragraph, however. IT IS BLATANTLY DISHONEST FOR YOU TO ACCUSE ME OF NOT TRUSTING IN JESUS BUT ONLY IN MY WORKS AND YOU KNOW IT. The source is not at issue here, do you understand? It's the method of salvation that is being debated.

 

[mailmandan]

I am not going to beat this dead horse any longer, since anything I say would be redundant. I do want to address your last paragraph, however. IT IS BLATANTLY DISHONEST FOR YOU TO ACCUSE ME OF NOT TRUSTING IN JESUS BUT ONLY IN MY WORKS AND YOU KNOW IT.

In order to trust in Jesus for salvation, we must trust EXCLUSIVELY in Jesus and not in Jesus "plus something else." Trusting in Jesus (for the most part) and trusting in works (in part) is not truly trusting in Jesus. I once heard someone who attends the church of Christ make this statement - "It is works of obedience that help save us." Do you agree with that statement? Does Jesus need our works as a supplement to help Hm save us? Is His finished work of redemption sufficient and complete to save us? Do we have access by faith into grace or by works into grace? (Romans 5:2).

The source is not at issue here, do you understand? It's the method of salvation that is being debated.

If works help save us then they become the source of salvation along with Christ's finished work of redemption. Do you understand? Jesus Christ/His finished work of redemption is the means/source/basis of our salvation and faith in Christ is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation.

 

[newbirth]

In order to trust in Jesus for salvation, we must trust EXCLUSIVELY in Jesus and not in Jesus "plus something else." Trusting in Jesus (for the most part) and trusting in works (in part) is not truly trusting in Jesus. I once heard someone who attends the church of Christ make this statement - "It is works of obedience that help save us." Do you agree with that statement? Does Jesus need our works as a supplement to help Hm save us? Is His finished work of redemption sufficient and complete to save us? Do we have access by faith into grace or by works into grace? (Romans 5:2).



If works help save us then they become the source of salvation along with Christ's finished work of redemption. Do you understand? Jesus Christ/His finished work of redemption is the means/source/basis of our salvation and faith in Christ is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation.

we are saved by grace through faith....faith without works is dead...unless and until you understand what that means.....you are just a.hearer of the word not a doer...one cannot separate the operation of God...If you believe then you do as God says ...If you say you believe and do not the things that God says to do then you are either decieved or disobedient...Do you believe Jesus says repent and be baptised for the remission of sins?.....if your answer is no you have been deceived....if your answer is yes....it means you have done it alresdy...or will do it soon... if you don't do it then you are being disobedient...

 

[posthuman]

let's all have a look at what Peter (who some wrongly claim preached that baptism remits sins or imparts the Holy Spirit) said to Cornelius and his household:

So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea,beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
(Acts 10:34-48)

there are some very important points i want you all to think about:

• Peter said "everyone who believes in Jesus receives forgiveness of sins" -- he did not say that baptism is prerequisite to forgiveness.
• the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the word -- gentiles, who had not been baptized.
  
• the Jewish believers who were with Peter were amazedthat the Holy Spirit filled these people, not because they had not been baptized, but because they were Gentiles.
  
• seeing that the God had clearly approved these that heard the Word and believed, Peter then says they should be baptized - not so that they might receive the Spirit, not so that they might be forgiven, not so that they might be regenerated -- because God Himself had already justified them by their faith. what other reason is left then? they were baptized to identify them publicly with the believers.

this is the same Peter whom the Lord often reprimanded, and had to tell 3 times to feed his sheep, and the cock had to crow 3 times before he understood, and the vision that he had before he went to see Cornelius had to be repeated 3 times.
God had to demonstrate​ to Peter and repeat Himself to him in order for Peter to understand.

 

[Alligator]

In order to trust in Jesus for salvation, we must trust EXCLUSIVELY in Jesus and not in Jesus "plus something else." Trusting in Jesus (for the most part) and trusting in works (in part) is not truly trusting in Jesus. I once heard someone who attends the church of Christ make this statement - "It is works of obedience that help save us." Do you agree with that statement? Does Jesus need our works as a supplement to help Hm save us? Is His finished work of redemption sufficient and complete to save us? Do we have access by faith into grace or by works into grace? (Romans 5:2).



If works help save us then they become the source of salvation along with Christ's finished work of redemption. Do you understand? Jesus Christ/His finished work of redemption is the means/source/basis of our salvation and faith in Christ is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation.

do I believe obedient works help save us? Yes I do. You still refuse to see that salvation is conditional. If God gives me a command, like feed the hungry, I'm going to do my best to do it. You seem to take God's commands lightly. Has Christ finished His work? Of course He has. Now, we have a responsibility to Him to do our part and endure to the end.

 

[mailmandan]

do I believe obedient works help save us? Yes I do.

There you have it. Salvation by works. So how much obedience does it take? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were obedient "enough" so now the Lord can finally save you? Is that believing in Him or believing in works? Does Christ 50% save us and works 50% save us? What about 90% Christ and 10% works?

You still refuse to see that salvation is conditional.

Salvation is conditional upon believing in Him/faith, not works (John 3:18; Ephesians 2:8,9).

If God gives me a command, like feed the hungry, I'm going to do my best to do it.

So doing your best to do the work of feeding the hungry is what you are trusting in as the basis for receiving eternal life? Do believers feed the hungry in order to become saved or because they are saved? What is cause and what is effect?

You seem to take God's commands lightly.

How so? What Christ commands us to do, after we have been saved through faith, I have either done or am striving to do, because I'm saved, not to become saved. I don't take the command to BELIEVE lightly! (John 3:18). Apart from believing in Him/faith, all else that we attempt to accomplish is futile!

Has Christ finished His work? Of course He has. Now, we have a responsibility to Him to do our part and endure to the end.

Saving belief is firmly rooted in Christ and endures to the end and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root and withers away. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works.

 

[newbirth]

let's all have a look at what Peter (who some wrongly claim preached that baptism remits sins or imparts the Holy Spirit) said to Cornelius and his household:

So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea,beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
(Acts 10:34-48)

there are some very important points i want you all to think about:

• Peter said "everyone who believes in Jesus receives forgiveness of sins" -- he did not say that baptism is prerequisite to forgiveness.
• the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the word -- gentiles, who had not been baptized.
  
• the Jewish believers who were with Peter were amazedthat the Holy Spirit filled these people, not because they had not been baptized, but because they were Gentiles.
  
• seeing that the God had clearly approved these that heard the Word and believed, Peter then says they should be baptized - not so that they might receive the Spirit, not so that they might be forgiven, not so that they might be regenerated -- because God Himself had already justified them by their faith. what other reason is left then? they were baptized to identify them publicly with the believers.

this is the same Peter whom the Lord often reprimanded, and had to tell 3 times to feed his sheep, and the cock had to crow 3 times before he understood, and the vision that he had before he went to see Cornelius had to be repeated 3 times.
God had to demonstrate​ to Peter and repeat Himself to him in order for Peter to understand.

The scripture does not teach baptism as public identity...it teaches...
Colossians 2:12
having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

do you believe one has to be born of water to enter the kingdom of God?
you speak of Cornilius as though he was some kind of ungodly man...the man had a relationship with God. he was a doer of the word....what happenn in Acts 10 does not alter what happen in Acts 2
Acts 10 American Standard Version (ASV)
10 Now there was a certain man in Caesarea, Cornelius by name, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]He saw in a vision openly, as it were about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And he, fastening his eyes upon him, and being affrighted, said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are gone up for a memorial before God.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now send men to Joppa, and fetch one Simon, who is surnamed Peter:

 

[posthuman]

you speak of Cornilius as though he was some kind of ungodly man...the man had a relationship with God. he was a doer of the word....what happenn in Acts 10 does not alter what happen in Acts 2

i have no idea whatsoever where you get the impression that i speak of Cornelius as an 'ungodly' man.
he was a gentile. the Jews (including Peter) thought of gentiles as unclean people. when Peter enters his house he explains that it against the law for a Jew to be in a gentile's house - but that God had expressly told him (3 times, because Peter was that kind of guy) not to consider unclean what God has declared clean.
the scripture expressly says that the people with Peter (Jewish believers) were astounded that God had given His Spirit to these gentiles.

i did not ever say Cornelius was ungodly. Peter, and the rest of the Jews, thought him unclean because he was not a Jew. God gave this sign to Peter, to those with him, and to us, to see clearly that God is not a respecter of persons.

and Cornelius and all those in his house that heard the word were approved by God.
they were justified before God and given the earnest of salvation, which is the Holy Spirit, before they were baptized. only after this was done in the presence of Peter and the other witnesses did Peter say "who can forbid water that they be baptized?"

you'd like to attack me and say that i said things i never said, and talk about something else rather than Acts 10, because it is hard for you to understand that it is God who washes us, God who approves us, God who gives us His spirit, God who justifies us, God who imparts righteousness, and not our works, not our rituals -- God and God alone.

what happened in Acts 2 does not change what happened in Acts 10.
gentiles were saved and filled with the Holy Spirit without having been baptized, and Peter preached to them saying that belief in Jesus is how sins are forgiven.
he did not say water baptism forgives sins or puts you in contact with the Holy Spirit.

now if you still believe that water baptism is not for a public sign and confession,
i'd like for you to please explain exactly what it is,
and for your explanation not to directly contradict the clear message of this passage of scripture where an example is given to us for our edification. . . ?

 

[Alligator]

do I believe obedient works help save us? Yes I do. You still refuse to see that salvation is conditional. If God gives me a command, like feed the hungry, I'm going to do my best to do it. You seem to take God's commands lightly. Has Christ finished His work? Of course He has. Now, we have a responsibility to Him to do our part and endure to the end.

There you have it. Salvation by works. So how much obedience does it take? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were obedient "enough" so now the Lord can finally save you? Is that believing in Him or believing in works? Does Christ 50% save us and works 50% save us? What about 90% Christ and 10% works?

That's a silly question and you're asking the wrong person. I could ask you, how much faith is required, 50%, 80% ?




[/QUOTE=mailmandan;1690209]Salvation is conditional upon believing in Him/faith, not works (John 3:18; Ephesians 2:8,9).[/quote]
T
you left out obeying! Heb, 5:8-9



So doing your best to do the work of feeding the hungry is what you are trusting in as the basis for receiving eternal life? Do believers feed the hungry in order to become saved or because they are saved? What is cause and what is effect?



How so? What Christ commands us to do, after we have been saved through faith, I have either done or am striving to do, because I'm saved, not to become saved. I don't take the command to BELIEVE lightly! (John 3:18). Apart from believing in Him/faith, all else that we attempt to accomplish is futile!



Saving belief is firmly rooted in Christ and endures to the end and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root and withers away. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works.[/QUOTE]

 

[kennethcadwell]

The thing I keep seeing is the debating on rather baptism is a outward sign, or if it truly cleanses one from sin.

How about we throw out this debate and just stick to scripture about it being a part of a true believer. If you truly believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you will do this along with repentance, confession, living of life of love, forgiveness, and being helpful to others in need.

Don't debate the semantics of it, just rather or not it is required of a believer. Jesus says it is by going to John and saying it had to be done, giving the great commission and that baptism was part of the commission, and then you have Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:16[SUP] [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Here you have Jesus mentioning baptism in the same category as belief to be saved. Then He says those who don't believe shall be damned. Some want to take and say because Jesus does not mention baptism in the second half of this scripture it is not a requirement, however what I try to pose to them and make a point is what does believing in Jesus mean ? To believe Him to be your Lord and Savior is also to believe in what He taught/said. If you don't truly believe in Him you will not follow His teachings and He is not truly your Lord, and He makes this evident in what He says;



Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

 

[posthuman]

The thing I keep seeing is the debating on rather baptism is a outward sign, or if it truly cleanses one from sin.

How about we throw out this debate and just stick to scripture about it being a part of a true believer. If you truly believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior you will do this along with repentance, confession, living of life of love, forgiveness, and being helpful to others in need.

because Ken, if we persist in saying that water baptism forgives sins and imparts the Holy Spirit, we are guilty of idolatry, taking the work of God and ascribing it to a physical ritual that we or another man performs.

after the events in Acts 10, Peter went back to Jerusalem and met with a lot of controversy over what had happened. the Jewish believers still considered gentiles unclean and thought salvation was only for those who were circumcised, being made Jews by birth or by proselytization. so Peter explained to them what had happened:

As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning.
And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said,

‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
​

If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ,
who was I that I could stand in God's way?”
(Acts 11:15-17)

now look at what Peter understood!

next time you read somewhere of how Peter said 'be baptized' or how Christ says 'those who believe and are baptized' consider this: it is not water that we are baptized with unto salvation, but Spirit. water does not baptize us into Christ's death and resurrection -- His Spirit does. God is Spirit, and those that worship Him worship Him in spirit and truth -- the book does not say 'worship Him in water and in truth'

be baptized in water! i've said it 100 times! don't forbid it!
just don't idolize it as though H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is what saves you!
GOD ALONE SAVES

 

[mailmandan]

That's a silly question and you're asking the wrong person.

So you are not going to answer my question? I answered your question below.

I could ask you, how much faith is required, 50%, 80%?

Our faith must be trusting 100% in Christ. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ for salvation or else we are 100% lost. Trusting in Christ + works is not 100% faith in Christ but is also faith in works (at least in part).

you left out obeying! Heb, 5:8-9

Which acts of obedience is salvation a consequence of? Is obedience a consequence of salvation? Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many people misuse Hebrews 5:9 to support salvation by works. Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless? In Romans 10:16, we see: *But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel/obey Christ by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16). Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16).

Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh. Just look at the Pharisees and these many people in Matthew 7:22-23 who think they are obeying God by their works. In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.