John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

[kennethcadwell]

And why wouldn't they if they truly believe? Believe yet refuse to be water baptized and never confess Him before men? Oxymoron.



Repent actually precedes believing in Him. Water baptism, confessing Him before other men, and good works in general follow.



So who does the things which the Lord says? Believers or unbelievers? Without faith it's possible or impossible to please God?

This just proves my point because some out there claim that repentance, baptism, confessing have nothing to do with salvation/being saved.

Our Lord makes it clear that those who truly believe in Him will do these things, so if you don't truly believe in Him you will not do them. Which means no salvation.

 

[posthuman]

This just proves my point because some out there claim that repentance, baptism, confessing have nothing to do with salvation/being saved.

Our Lord makes it clear that those who truly believe in Him will do these things, so if you don't truly believe in Him you will not do them. Which means no salvation.

repentance, baptism and confession have everything to do with salvation, and they all take place in the heart, by spirit and by grace, and what is in the heart becomes manifested in the flesh.
our salvation originates, perfects and abides in Christ, and Him alone. let us then with our hands and with our mouths show what has been done within us, at the cross and at the tomb, even in heaven!

it's "your will be done on earth even as it is in heaven" -- not the other way around, that His will be done in heaven afterwards, first being done on earth. He said "let there be light" and there was light -- He was not surprised to first discover light was, and then approve it by saying 'let light continue to be'

 

[kennethcadwell]

repentance, baptism and confession have everything to do with salvation, and they all take place in the heart, by spirit and by grace, and what is in the heart becomes manifested in the flesh.
our salvation originates, perfects and abides in Christ, and Him alone. let us then with our hands and with our mouths show what has been done within us, at the cross and at the tomb, even in heaven!

it's "your will be done on earth even as it is in heaven" -- not the other way around, that His will be done in heaven afterwards, first being done on earth. He said "let there be light" and there was light -- He was not surprised to first discover light was, and then approve it by saying 'let light continue to be'

Yes and Jesus mentions baptism more than once, and when He went to John to be baptized what did He say to John ?
He said to John this has to be done.

 

[Alligator]

Here we go. In order to explain away the thief on the cross being saved through faith apart from water baptism, people resort to either saying that water baptism was not necessary for salvation until the New Covenant was established after Jesus died (or how do we know that the thief was not already baptized), yet prior to the death of Jesus, before the New Covenant was established, John was preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4).

Not explain away, EXPLAIN. Read Heb. 9:16-17. John's baptism was only temporary. The baptism of the Great Commission given by Christ just before the ascension is the baptism of today.

[/QUOTE=mailmandan;1684707] I didn't change what Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16, I simply harmonized it with what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. Who gave you the authority to change what Jesus said in these 9 verses in John? I didn't change what Peter said in Acts 2:38. I simply harmonized it with what Peter said in Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9 and what Paul said in Acts 16:31. You gave you the authority to change what Peter and Paul said in these passages of scripture?[quote/]

you say is harmonizing I say it's changing .

I'll be waiting for you to admit that your false accusation about me being a "Calvinist to the core" was in error. Why would you make such an accusation? Does Calvinism get under your skin?[/QUOTE]

See my other post.

 

[Alligator]

"calvanist" ?? lol.
you are the same gator that harped on him for mentioning the COC, right?

does John Calvin get under your bumpy reptilian skin too?

let's all stick to Christ and what God has wrought, not men. Paul is ours, Peter is ours, John is ours, Apollos is ours, Christ is ours, Calvin is ours, Campbell is ours. the only gospel we need to worry over is that of Jesus.

belong to Christ, not to any man or any denomination.

Not for mentioning it, but for name calling (Campbellites).

ANY false teaching gets under my skin, and it should yours as well.

I agree we belong to Christ and not a denomination.

But that's the problem, John Calvin doesn't teach the gospel of Jesus.

 

[posthuman]

Not for mentioning it, but for name calling (Campbellites).

ANY false teaching gets under my skin, and it should yours as well.

aye, it does

i haven't been keeping tabs, but i'm pretty sure that i hear wrong understanding from people who hate Calvin or Campbell just as often as i do from people that don't.

that being the case, i'd rather not mention any of their names at all, but to focus on what's true. nothing is either true or false simply because it's associated with a man's name.

 

[newbirth]

poor editing on my part. sorry.

we all do that from time to time...

what do you think Peter meant by saying we should be baptized for the remission of sins?

That we should be baptised for the remission of sins...what else could he mean?

do you think He and Paul & John are preaching different gospels?
because Paul says believe with your heart and confess with your mouth. John says only the blood of Christ remits sins. whoever wrote the book of Hebrews said no sin is remitted without blood.

how do you reconcile that? do you just suppose that Peter had it right and Paul & John were mistaken, and Jesus just forgot to mention how important magic bathtubs are?

surely, if all these are giving us the same truth, and there is only one baptism, it is not simply a matter of washing off some dirt in a pond.

so what does baptism mean?

Believing in God is all things working together ...one cannot separate the commands of God ...saying this is for that and do this for that...to believe means to believe everything Christ commanded us....not just what we feel comfortable with...

The scripture is clear on baptism....doctrine of man is not

 

[Kaycie]

We are the Church of Christ- not Campbellites. In baptism God is doing the work- not you- for it is a spiritual circumcision (Colossians 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh[b] was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead).. And He is speaking of the water that saves you spiritually- not the amniotic fluid around an unborn baby. 1 Peter 3:21 specifies this… “ and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, We know that those in Christ are saved, but how do you get into Christ? Romans 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus..." God says in His Bible that baptism saves. I for one am going to take His Word for it.

 

[posthuman]

Believing in God is all things working together ...one cannot separate the commands of God ...saying this is for that and do this for that...to believe means to believe everything Christ commanded us....not just what we feel comfortable with...

right on; then we shouldn't be saying "baptism remits sins" and "works earn eternal life" and "believing Jesus gets you... "
hang on, are we leaving Jesus out?
are we saying baptism is what forgives sins, or that Jesus forgives sins?

are we sure Peter said baptism remits sins?

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:38)

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
(Acts 3:19-20)

hmm.

 

[newbirth]

right on; then we shouldn't be saying "baptism remits sins" and "works earn eternal life" and "believing Jesus gets you... "
hang on, are we leaving Jesus out?
are we saying baptism is what forgives sins, or that Jesus forgives sins?

are we sure Peter said baptism remits sins?

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:38)

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
(Acts 3:19-20)

hmm.

Why shouldn't we say ...we should say what the scripture say...but we must also do all that the scripture say we must do...who says baptism is what forgives sins are you trying to be difficult? repent and be baptised for the remission of sins does not say baptism forgives sins.....just as we are created unto good works does not mean "works earn eternal life" Why does one come to Christ if not to be obedient.....if you want to be disobedient you cannot be in Christ ...

 

[Alligator]

right on; then we shouldn't be saying "baptism remits sins" and "works earn eternal life" and "believing Jesus gets you... "
hang on, are we leaving Jesus out?
are we saying baptism is what forgives sins, or that Jesus forgives sins?

are we sure Peter said baptism remits sins?

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:38)

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
(Acts 3:19-20)

hmm.

There is only one thing that forgives sins........the blood of Christ. But how do we come in contact with that blood..".by being baptized into Christ. Gal. 3:26-27

 

[posthuman]

There is only one thing that forgives sins........the blood of Christ. But how do we come in contact with that blood..".by being baptized into Christ. Gal. 3:26-27

yes! and who baptizes with this precious blood?



(hint: John 13:8, Ezekiel 36:25, Isaiah 1:18, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, Psalm 103:12, Jeremiah 31:34, Revelation 1:5 . . .)

God alone!

I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!
(Galatians 2:21)

no one is made clean simply by being dipped in water.

In him we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins,
in accordance with the riches of God's grace
(Ephesians 1:7)

it's "in Him"
not
"in a mikveh"

 

[newbirth]

yes! and who baptizes with this precious blood?



(hint: John 13:8, Ezekiel 36:25, Isaiah 1:18, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, Psalm 103:12, Jeremiah 31:34, Revelation 1:5 . . .)

God alone!

I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!
(Galatians 2:21)

no one is made clean simply by being dipped in water.

In him we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins,
in accordance with the riches of God's grace
(Ephesians 1:7)

it's "in Him"
not
"in a mikveh"

see here ...it is not simply a dip in water ...you are being baptised into Christ...into his death and raising up unto a new life
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[mailmandan]

You are at least part Calvinist and any part is too much. Lol. Nevertheless, I will withdraw my comment if you are willing to withdraw your "Campbellite" comment about church members.

Part Calvinist? LOL! You originally said "Calvinist to the core." Big difference. The Roman Catholic church teaches that there is one God in essence or nature, yet three distinct persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is referred to as the Trinity or the Godhead. I believe that. Does that make me part Roman Catholic? Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. I believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. Does that make me part Muslim? So because I'm not a five point Calvinist but don't believe that John Calvin was 100% wrong about everything, that makes me part Calvinist? Even leaders of cults and false religions may be right about "something".

In regards to being a Campbellite. Historically, Churches of Christ in the United States have roots in the American Restoration Movement, and were recognized as a distinct religious group by the U.S. Religious Census of 1906. The Restoration Movement began on the American frontier during the Second Great Awakening of the early 19th century under the leadership of Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott, and Barton W. Stone. Those leaders had declared their independence from their Presbyterian roots, seeking a fresh start to restore the New Testament church, and abandoning creeds. They did not see themselves as establishing a new church. Rather, the movement sought the restoration of the church and "the unification of all Christians in a single body patterned after the church of the New Testament." The names "Church of Christ," "Christian Church" and "Disciples of Christ" were adopted by the movement because they believed these terms to be biblical.

A Campbellite is a term referring to adherents of certain religious groups that have historic roots in the Restoration Movement, among whose most prominent 19th century leaders were Thomas and Alexander Campbell. Do you deny that the Churches of Christ have their roots in the American Restoration Movement and that the Restoration Movement began on the American frontier during the Second Great Awakening of the early 19th century under the leadership of Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott, and Barton W. Stone?

 

[mailmandan]

This just proves my point because some out there claim that repentance, baptism, confessing have nothing to do with salvation/being saved.

But at what moment are we saved? At the moment that we believe in Him for salvation? Or not until later, after we receive water baptism and round up a group of men and confess Jesus to them? In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus from the heart (not just lip service confession) are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation.

Our Lord makes it clear that those who truly believe in Him will do these things, so if you don't truly believe in Him you will not do them. Which means no salvation.

Those who truly believe in Him are saved (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). Consequence of truly believing, water baptism follows and confessing Jesus before men. Those who don't truly believe in Him means no salvation, consequence of not believing, no baptism, no confession, although there are people who don't truly believe in Him (though they believe in the existence and historical facts about Him) and get water baptized anyway because they trust in their baptism (along with other works) to save them and give lip service confession. See Matthew 7:21-23. I don't see water baptism and confessing Jesus before men as acts of becoming saved, but acts of those who are saved.

Water baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers are already saved, for the Bible says we are saved by believing in Christ (John 3;18; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc.) not by rites or religious works, or good works. This does not remove good works from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Not explain away, EXPLAIN. Read Heb. 9:16-17. John's baptism was only temporary. The baptism of the Great Commission given by Christ just before the ascension is the baptism of today.

It's explain away. Regardless that John's baptism was temporary, you stated in a different post that John's "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" meant that his baptism obtained the remission of sins. The thief placed his faith in Christ for salvation yet was unable to get water baptized before he died. Period. So people were getting water baptized before and after the death of Jesus. How were people saved before Jesus died? Through BELIEVING in Him. (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). How are people saved after the death of Jesus? Through BELIEVING in Him (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4;5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).

you say is harmonizing I say it's changing.

I didn't change John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 to include baptism in those verses and I didn't change Mark 16:16 to read that whoever is not baptized will be condemned. So I harmonized them and changed nothing.

 

[posthuman]

see here ...it is not simply a dip in water ...you are being baptised into Christ...into his death and raising up unto a new life
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

that is exactly my point:
true baptism is immersion in Christ, not in water.

if we call water baptism "the baptism that saves and forgives sins" then we are putting our faith in a ritual, not in a Savior.

 

[Alligator]

You are at least part Calvinist and any part is too much. Lol. Nevertheless, I will withdraw my comment if you are willing to withdraw your "Campbellite" comment about church members.

Part Calvinist? LOL! You originally said "Calvinist to the core." Big difference. The Roman Catholic church teaches that there is one God in essence or nature, yet three distinct persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is referred to as the Trinity or the Godhead. I believe that. Does that make me part Roman Catholic? Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. I believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. Does that make me part Muslim? So because I'm not a five point Calvinist but don't believe that John Calvin was 100% wrong about everything, that makes me part Calvinist? Even leaders of cults and false religions may be right about "something".

In regards to being a Campbellite. Historically, Churches of Christ in the United States have roots in the American Restoration Movement, and were recognized as a distinct religious group by the U.S. Religious Census of 1906. The Restoration Movement began on the American frontier during the Second Great Awakening of the early 19th century under the leadership of Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott, and Barton W. Stone. Those leaders had declared their independence from their Presbyterian roots, seeking a fresh start to restore the New Testament church, and abandoning creeds. They did not see themselves as establishing a new church. Rather, the movement sought the restoration of the church and "the unification of all Christians in a single body patterned after the church of the New Testament." The names "Church of Christ," "Christian Church" and "Disciples of Christ" were adopted by the movement because they believed these terms to be biblical.

A Campbellite is a term referring to adherents of certain religious groups that have historic roots in the Restoration Movement, among whose most prominent 19th century leaders were Thomas and Alexander Campbell. Do you deny that the Churches of Christ have their roots in the American Restoration Movement and that the Restoration Movement began on the American frontier during the Second Great Awakening of the early 19th century under the leadership of Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Walter Scott, and Barton W. Stone?

i thought.it would be obvious that I was at least half joking about the "part Calvinist" remark, hence the LOL.

i am aware of the restoration movement and Alexander Campbell's history, but you completely missed the point.

You know as well as I do the term "Campbellite carries a negative connotation and I've never heard it used otherwise. People aren't Campbellites, they are simply Christians.

 

[mailmandan]

i thought.it would be obvious that I was at least half joking about the "part Calvinist" remark, hence the LOL.

I almost took it as half joking until I read the part about "any part is too much".
It's good to see you have a sense of humor though.

i am aware of the restoration movement and Alexander Campbell's history, but you completely missed the point. You know as well as I do the term "Campbellite carries a negative connotation and I've never heard it used otherwise.

I simply think of "Campbellite" as a term referring to adherents of certain religious groups (church of Christ in particular) that have historic roots in the Restoration Movement, among whose most prominent 19th century leaders were Thomas and Alexander Campbell.

People aren't Campbellites, they are simply Christians.

People are Christians if they have placed their faith exclusively in Christ for salvation, regardless of what group they are associated with. Here is how I see it. There are denominational and non denominational churches that teach false gospels, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the teachings of those churches. But those who believe the true gospel of grace, and not just whatever their church teaches, are saved/Christians regardless of the group with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may preach the true gospel of grace. If one truly believes the gospel, then one is a Christian and has eternal salvation. But if one does not believe it, then one is lost even though the official teaching of one's church is correct.

 

[Alligator]

yes! and who baptizes with this precious blood?



(hint: John 13:8, Ezekiel 36:25, Isaiah 1:18, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, Psalm 103:12, Jeremiah 31:34, Revelation 1:5 . . .)

God alone!

I do not set aside the grace of God,
for if righteousness could be gained through the law,
Christ died for nothing!
(Galatians 2:21)

no one is made clean simply by being dipped in water.

In him we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins,
in accordance with the riches of God's grace
(Ephesians 1:7)

it's "in Him"
not
"in a mikveh"

No, Jesus instituted the Great Commission in Matt. 28 and it was to be administered by men.