Women in Ministry

[Allin]

Now where on earth does the Bible say such a thing? Can you not look back at your post and see how much of it is merely your saying things, and not scripture?

There are 3 kinds of apostles (authoritative ambassadors) in the Bible:
1) Apostle of God (Christ);
2) Apostles of Christ (the 12 & Paul),
3) Apostles of local churches "your apostle."

There is no evidence whatever that Timothy was an apostle of Christ.
There is no passage to prove that there are more Apostles of Christ than the 12 + Paul. If Barnabas, for example, was an apostle of The Church of Antioch, that does not make him an apostle of Christ.

The Bible encourages us to search till we find. My post is mostly about searching. But the Bible hides most things so that you have to find them by revelation (e.g. you will see below that the apostleship of a few, who are not the 12 or Paul, is made clear but that the apostleship of the rest, it is not made clear). If you can learn what the apostle was given to the Church for, then you will not see them as 'gods' of some kind (like the people saw Paul and Barnabas) but you will begin to recognize them in the Bible, in history, and today. Here are some whom the Bible calls and indicates were post-ascension apostles. I'll use red where the Bible makes a person's apostleship plain for us:

1. Barnabas: "The priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, intending to sacrifice with the multitudes. But when the apostles (plural) Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes" (Acts 14:13-14).

2. James, Jesus' brother (not either of the two James who were apostles among the 12): "I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother" (Gal. 1:18-19).

3. Apollos: "Let a man so consider us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mystery of God... These things I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes... For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death" (1Cor. 4:1-9).

4. Timothy and Silvanus (with Paul): "We did not seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we could have made demands as apostles of Christ" (1Thess. 2:6).

5. Epaphroditus: "I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, but your messenger (Gr. 'apostle') and the one who ministered to my need" (Phil. 2:25).

6. Two unnamed apostles: "We have sent with [Titus] the brother whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches... who was also chosen by the churches to travel with us with this gift which is administered by us to the glory of the Lord Himself. If anyone inquires about Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker concerning you. Or if our brethren are inquired about, they are the messengers (Gr. 'apostoloi') of the churches, the glory of Christ" (2Cor. 8:16-24).

7. Andronicus and Junia: "Greet and Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Rom. 16:7).

Here's a passage that sheds light on the fact that the topic of post-ascension apostles needs to be investigated in order to reveal the truth:

Paul says, "[After Jesus rose,] He was seen by Cephas (Peter), then by the twelve (apostles of Jesus). After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once... After that, He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also... For I am the least of the apostles" (1Cor. 15). We all have opinions and beliefs; that's why we shouldn't hold tight to our beliefs till the full truth is revealed. (1Cor. 4:5.) Above, the Bible makes it clear that besides the 12 and Paul, Barnabas and James were also apostles. To find other apostles besides them named in the Bible, you have to be willing to learn more; they are in there.

 

[Allin]

Pardon me, Allin, I don't mean to be disagreeable, but I think that passage has been quoted out of context so many times that people don't realize that what Isaiah is saying is that taking God's word "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" is the wrong way to approach God's word -- no scripture is of private interpretation.

Atwood, your intentions are apparently good; but the Bible also says that all Scripture is useful for today. If we are to confine all Scripture to what they meant at the particular time they were spoken, we could not use most of the Bible. There are writers in the NT who seem to add to or subtract from OT passages and also seem to misquote them. For instance, Isa. 64:4 talks about those who wait for God; but in quoting that passage in 1Cor. 2:9, Paul quotes it as saying those who love God. Why would Paul totally change an important word in the passage?

If you were to restrict passages to their original meaning, then Jesus was wrong to 'quote out of context' this passage: "Man does not live by bread alone..." Let's take a brief look at that to get the point across that God's Word is alive when the Spirit breathes on it so that you can use it today for something other than what it was originally used or meant for:

1. Moses (to Israel), "[God] humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord" (Deut. 8:3).

2. "When [Jesus] had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, 'If You are the Son of God, command that these stones becomes bread.' But [Jesus] answered and said, 'It is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God"'" (Matt. 4:2-4).

Why did Jesus quote that passage as if it was written for His situation? It was written originally for Israel who hungered and ate manna from Heaven. Jesus had no manna or bread, but He still rightly quoted the passage. It appears apparent that what makes Scripture useful today though written in the past is contained in the three words Jesus repeated three times: "It is written." If God has written it, then it can be used yesterday and today, and we know that it will last forever. Don't limit God's Word; the Bible is full of 'misquotations' and 'editing' of OT passages. Isaiah wrote Isa. 28:10, 13 many years ago, but the Holy Spirit still teaches today "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little" (Isa. 28:10, 13).

 

[Allin]

Good scripture. But they do not say that men were inspired. My point is that it is scripture which is inspired, not men (in the theillogical meaning of "inspired" -- better rendered "expired.)

Whether you want to call it 'inspired' (which was what it was) or something else, the men who wrote the Bible wrote under the inspiration, tutorship, leading, guidance, and direction of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is clear that God is the One who authored the Bible through human beings. Whatever one may call it, that is what happened.

From the dictionary meanings of the word 'inspire', we see clearly that the men who wrote the Bible were inspired. We have writings like Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon which men obviously wrote; we have the writings of those who accused God of all kinds of falsehood (like David, Job, Jeremiah); and we have the writings of King Nebuchadnezzar (a pagan king who wrote at least one whole chapter in the Bible: Dan. 4), other kings (who wrote letters recorded in the Bible, giving Israel permission to rebuild Jerusalem, etc.), and even enemies of God who opposed Israel (the Book of Nehemiah contains letters written in the Bible from King Artaxerxes along with governors and enemies of Israel). It's apparent that these people weren't necessarily writing things directly from God's heart. But the Bible still says that God Himself 'inspired' the Bible (which means 'to guide or control by divine influence, to influence; to impel, quicken, etc.').

It seems that what you are trying to do is what so many have tried and still try to do which is to try to preserve God's perfection by saying that anything with impurities or imperfections cannot be from Him. The religious Jews tried this with the Bible of their time, and there are Christians who still do this. One of the greatest problems with trying to 'preserve God's perfection' is missing the fact that He works with human imperfection. The Bible is full of stories of human imperfection; but a perfect God produced and presented it to humanity.

 

[birdie]

The word apostle means 'sent'. In a sense, every true believer is an apostle sent by Jesus Christ into the world. I think hierarchical and non-biblical-minded people have taught people to have a limited use of a word that does not have a meaning they ascribe to it. High status in denominations or high status in Bible history comes to mind only because people have been trained to think of the word that way by men, and not by the Bible. Apostle means 'sent'. When the scripture says God gave some to be apostles, some teachers, some evangelists, and so on, it does not imply that you have to say, "Oh, this group of 100 believers is likely divided into discreet units of part being one or the other. Rather, the list seems to be relevant to any true believer. Any true believer is an evangelist in some way. Any true believer is a teacher in some way. Any true believer is a sent person in some way, ...and so forth.

 

[Revelator7]

The word apostle means 'sent'. In a sense, every true believer is an apostle sent by Jesus Christ into the world. I think hierarchical and non-biblical-minded people have taught people to have a limited use of a word that does not have a meaning they ascribe to it. High status in denominations or high status in Bible history comes to mind only because people have been trained to think of the word that way by men, and not by the Bible. Apostle means 'sent'. When the scripture says God gave some to be apostles, some teachers, some evangelists, and so on, it does not imply that you have to say, "Oh, this group of 100 believers is likely divided into discreet units of part being one or the other. Rather, the list seems to be relevant to any true believer. Any true believer is an evangelist in some way. Any true believer is a teacher in some way. Any true believer is a sent person in some way, ...and so forth.

Your thinking here reminds me of how Catholics try and twist the word mediator regarding how in the Bible it says that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. They try and stretch that word to justify the "mediators" in heaven such as the saints they pray to and Mary.

But the word Apostle doesn't just mean sent. You're referring to the Greek word apostello which is different from the Greek word for apostolos. Apostello means to send away with an order. But apostolos is a delegate, a specific type of ambassador of the Gospel, a commisioner for Christ. You see, what's noted among a person in the office of an apostle is miracles signs and wonders. Apostles are missionaries. They are in danger of death and persecution more than that of like a pastor or teacher. The term apostle was coined by how when war ships used to go out on the high seas, the lead ships would go first before the other ships, they were the ones that were attacked first. Their purpose was take territory. This is exactly what an apostle does, he goes out to take territory for the lord in geograpical regions.

Have you never read in the Bible this:

And God has placed in the church FIRST OF ALL apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles... 1 Corinthians 12:28

Hieracrcy definition: a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status OR authority.

The Tweleve (the disciples) were apostles. They were give the authority of an apostle.

You seem to have a bitter feeling on people in the church who have authority over others. You seem to want this sort of equality among men in the church when it comes to position and places of power and influence. Yes we Christians all have Jesus in us. And yes we are all equal in the sense that we all serve one Lord and one Father God. BUT however have you never read the Parable of the Talents? God literally gives one person 10 talents to one* then 5 to another then still 1 to another according to the design that God created that person as. Not everybody in the body is the same. There is the Eye, there is the Nose,and there are those that are hidden. Read this in Corinthians.

 

[The_highwayman]

Also it is not necessary to learn Greek. Greek is a dead language anyway.


Just believe the English Text. All you need is the English Bible (King James Holy Bible).

The Authorized Version Holy Bible is the perfect English Bible. Therefore it is the Absolute Final Authority for all matters of Faith and Practice.

There is no such thing as an ordained Woman pastor or a legitimate woman pastor. The Holy Bible does not allow for women to be pastors. Only a man can be a Pastor and an overseer.

Funny, Where did Jesus say all you needed was the KJB...Oh yeah he didn't

 

[Allin]

The word apostle means 'sent'. In a sense, every true believer is an apostle sent by Jesus Christ into the world. I think hierarchical and non-biblical-minded people have taught people to have a limited use of a word that does not have a meaning they ascribe to it. High status in denominations or high status in Bible history comes to mind only because people have been trained to think of the word that way by men, and not by the Bible. Apostle means 'sent'. When the scripture says God gave some to be apostles, some teachers, some evangelists, and so on, it does not imply that you have to say, "Oh, this group of 100 believers is likely divided into discreet units of part being one or the other. Rather, the list seems to be relevant to any true believer. Any true believer is an evangelist in some way. Any true believer is a teacher in some way. Any true believer is a sent person in some way, ...and so forth.

All believers are to be apostolic, prophetic, and evangelistic (and some pastoral and some teachers); but not all believers are called to be apostles or prophets or evangelists or pastors or teachers. I agree with what Revelator7 said overall. It is true that you don't really meet many people who don't abuse authority over others; but God doesn't change His order or ways because people are unwilling to keep in step with them. (He does change what He allows when people are unable to keep in step with His will.)

Revelator7 wrote: "You see, what's noted among a person in the office of an apostle is miracles signs and wonders. Apostles are missionaries. They are in danger of death and persecution more than that of like a pastor or teacher. The term apostle was coined by how when war ships used to go out on the high seas, the lead ships would go first before the other ships, they were the ones that were attacked first. Their purpose was take territory. This is exactly what an apostle does, he goes out to take territory for the Lord" in geographical as well as spiritual and psychological and all other areas: genuine apostles are called to pioneering and entrepreneurship.

You don't have to worry about false apostles and ministers; Jesus said, "By their fruits, you will recognize them." Not by their talents, personality, spiritual gifts, or success in ministry, but by their fruits. It's hard enough to find one person operating in miracles today (those are gifts, not fruits), so we don't even have to worry about believing in a false apostle. But even when the gifts (miracles) are in place, the fruits are more telling. Revelator7 said that genuine apostles "are in danger of death and persecution more than that of like a pastor or teacher." When you find one minister who attracts an unusual amount of the enemy's fire for taking a righteous stand, then you might be in the presence of someone who is not a pastor or teacher. Ministers don't draw enemy fire and do their best not to. False apostles won't draw persecution or fire. I can say this emphatically: Any Christian or minister who claims to be an apostle but the enemy doesn't know him is a liar: "The evil spirit answered [seven unauthorized ministers], 'Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you" (Acts 19:15).

As Revelator7 said, everyone in Christ is in Christ, but not everyone has the same gifts or callings: some have one talent, some two, some five, etc.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

You're wrong. Firstly the KJV is not the only translation one should read, there are many proofs against this.

Today, the King James Bible is the only English translation that is the perfect and infallible word of God.


Now if one wants to read another English Bible other than the King James Bible, then an another accurate English translation to read from would be the Geneva Bible.

But why not just stick with the best of the best? Stick with the King James Bible.

Most if not all modern translations (NIV, ESV, NLT, Mess., CEV, etc.) are based upon corrupt and inferior Greek manuscripts (Siniaticus and Vaticanus).

but If you would like me to show you women pastors from the KJV here you go "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." Romans 16:7

Jackamo, I think you missed something here.


Let me indicate the detail which I believe you missed:



Romans 16:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.


Andronicus and Junia were MEN. Paul referred to them both as his KINSMEN.

also before you bring the verse in timothy up, it says over a man. There can be female pastors as long as they are under the authority of male pastors of the church. But again in Galatians 3:28 in the kjv There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Therefore since there is no difference between male and female why can't a woman be a pastor

No, there cannot be female pastors. At all. Only a man can be a pastor, deacon, or bishop.

And by the way, that verse you cited in Galatians 3:28, is not talking about spiritual roles in the assembly of the saints. Galatians 3:28 is in reference to Salvation.

There is neither male nor female in Christ in regards to SALVATION.

But as far as men's roles and women's roles in the church and assebly of the saints, the roles of a man are different from the roles of a woman. That is just the way it is. God is a God of distinction.

And there are distinctions between a man and a woman.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Today, the King James Bible is the only English translation that is the perfect and infallible word of God.


Now if one wants to read another English Bible other than the King James Bible, then an another accurate English translation to read from would be the Geneva Bible.

But why not just stick with the best of the best? Stick with the King James Bible.

Most if not all modern translations (NIV, ESV, NLT, Mess., CEV, etc.) are based upon corrupt and inferior Greek manuscripts (Siniaticus and Vaticanus).








Jackamo, I think you missed something here.


Let me indicate the detail which I believe you missed:



Romans 16:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.


Andronicus and Junia were MEN. Paul referred to them both as his KINSMEN.








No, there cannot be female pastors. At all. Only a man can be a pastor, deacon, or bishop.

And by the way, that verse you cited in Galatians 3:28, is not talking about spiritual roles in the assembly of the saints. Galatians 3:28 is in reference to Salvation.

There is neither male nor female in Christ in regards to SALVATION.

But as far as men's roles and women's roles in the church and assebly of the saints, the roles of a man are different from the roles of a woman. That is just the way it is. God is a God of distinction.

And there are distinctions between a man and a woman.

That is where you are wrong.
Junia is female, Junias would be male which is what newer translations do because they don't like the fact of a female apostle, so they added a "s" to change to the male version. But KJV kept the original feminine translation Junia ( female ).

The saying of them being countrymen does not mean they were both men, it was referring to them as a whole and the bible was written in a masculine standard. If you do a back ground study you will find Junia is a female.

 

[Allin]

Today, the King James Bible is the only English translation that is the perfect and infallible word of God...

Andronicus and Junia were MEN. Paul referred to them both as his KINSMEN.


No, there cannot be female pastors. At all. Only a man can be a pastor, deacon, or bishop...

God is a God of distinction. And there are distinctions between a man and a woman.

Firstly, I want to address your idea of the KJV and say unequivocally that there is no human language from the past and in the present that can correctly translate the entire Bible. The English language cannot capture and translate what God said, is saying, and will say in the Bible nor can any other language. Jesus said, "The words I speak to you are spirit, and they are life" (Jn. 6:63), and Heb. 4:12 says, "The word of God is quick, and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (KJV). The italicized words are words that especially show that God's Word is continually alive; it cannot be trapped under a language written on pages. The Bible can never be perfectly translated in any human language; it is not possible. For example, the KJV says that people were 'demon possessed' which is a wrong translation of the Greek 'daimonizomai' which does not mean 'to be possessed' but 'to have a demon' or 'to be under <the influence of> a demon' as it comes from the Greek 'daimon' which means 'demon'. The KJV is already imperfect.

As for Andronicus and Junia called 'kinsmen' or 'countrymen', it's the same as the masculine 'brethren' which literally means 'brothers' but in an all-encompassing way means 'fellows' (men and women) and therefore 'fellowship'. 'Kin' or 'fellow' does not mean a great deal today; but in the Bible, it indicated close proximity of relationship or intimacy. John said he had fellow-ship with God and Jesus and wanted to invite those under him into that fellow-ship. (1Jn. 1:1-3). This is not church gathering which many call fellowship; it is intimacy (like-mindedness) and partaking of the same thing among 'fellows': "That (Jesus) which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you may also have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ... If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another" (1Jn. 1:3, 7). Therefore, when Paul called Andronicus and Junia (but not the others) his 'kinsmen', it is a greater indication that they were apostles like (intimate fellows with) him.

There can be female ministers (pastors, etc.), because while God does make a distinction between male and female, He does it His way and not ours. In OT times, God made the distinction, but man made it his way and repressed women in a lot of ways. But even back then, whenever God was able to act in spite of man's sinful mindsets, He removed the repressive chains that men placed on women and also called and placed women in positions of ministry, sometimes even above men (not to lord authority but to lead: e.g. Deborah and Barak). If there were female prophets in the OT under the Law that brought condemnation, do you think that God will place a sudden ban on female ministers under the Covenant of Grace which, working from freedom and not bondage, releases everyone (male and female and all Creation) into a greater overall freedom and relationship with God and others. The Bible says a lot, but it doesn't explain a great deal. E.g. it tells us a very few of the signs of an apostle and says little of the character traits and fruits of an apostle; yet, it says basically nothing about the signs or fruits of the prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher. Apparently, there are many gaps purposely left in the Bible so that we would depend on the Holy Spirit and not our own intellect or (in)ability to understand things. And adding to what KennethCaldwell said, Junia is a feminine Greek name, not a masculine one (Junias is masculine).