-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
From the study conducted and published in the Stanford Law Review , it has been shown that the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime rate.
Also, if we should brutalize and torture criminals, how are we any different from them?
If you look at the perspective of an ISIS terrorist, he will see himself in the right, because he is killing off "infidels".
With that view, how are we any different? From that logical stance, there is no difference really amongst Christians. Everybody's same, but from a different coloured fence.
Also, if we should brutalize and torture criminals, how are we any different from them?
If you look at the perspective of an ISIS terrorist, he will see himself in the right, because he is killing off "infidels".
With that view, how are we any different? From that logical stance, there is no difference really amongst Christians. Everybody's same, but from a different coloured fence.
you make bad analogy's, look what paul did dragging people out of there houses having them put to death and thrown in jail and look where it got him. At least he was doing something. Yes you should show love serving others being a doer of the Word, but there is a difference,of stopping a crime in progress that is harming others, than hearing it on the news later and hunting them down and killing them.
Honestly, I am saddened that Christians support cruelty towards criminals.
Jesus was hung like a criminal, surrounded by criminals.
No greater love was ever shown but by Him.
Our love is limited.
I am out of this thread. Can't stand the obnoxiousness of it all. To each their own. God is our final judge.
Jesus was hung like a criminal, surrounded by criminals.
No greater love was ever shown but by Him.
Our love is limited.
I am out of this thread. Can't stand the obnoxiousness of it all. To each their own. God is our final judge.
Somebody mentioned the flood victim who not leave town already. I already addressed this and it is no way related to you carrying a loaded weapon.
#1. The flood victim who refused to leave was not harming another.
#2. There is a difference between escaping an immediate harmful situation versus living in fear so to protect yourself from a potential threat that may or may not happen.
#3. God is sovereign over everything.
#4. God is the giver and taker of life.
#1. The flood victim who refused to leave was not harming another.
#2. There is a difference between escaping an immediate harmful situation versus living in fear so to protect yourself from a potential threat that may or may not happen.
#3. God is sovereign over everything.
#4. God is the giver and taker of life.
C
I think this thread is instructive of just how shallow the arguments of the pacifism movement are. Notice now the arguments are not biblical, being all their verses actually work against them, but purely emotional. "How can you be so mean to murderers??"
But biblically, God ordained the death penalty long before the Law, almost immediately after the Flood.
Gen. 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of Godb
has God made mankind.
Are we going to be so brazen in our advocacy, that we're going to call God cruel. And that's really what the movement is about. It's not about God's word, it's about their feelings and their personal disagreements with God.
I noticed also Jason, who is also abandoning his biblical approach, has argued that if self defense is okay, then someone might have taken Paul out and then we wouldn't have the benefit of all his works. Now that's a new one. Don't kill any bad guys, because they might become apostles. Wow!
Okay, but let's then look at the flip side. Since bad guys kill people, often law abiding people, then what he's really saying is, the bad guys are more likely to become apostles, and therefore we need to let the good ones die.
If anything, I hope all can now see just how unbiblical and illogical this movement is.
But biblically, God ordained the death penalty long before the Law, almost immediately after the Flood.
Gen. 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of Godb
has God made mankind.
Are we going to be so brazen in our advocacy, that we're going to call God cruel. And that's really what the movement is about. It's not about God's word, it's about their feelings and their personal disagreements with God.
I noticed also Jason, who is also abandoning his biblical approach, has argued that if self defense is okay, then someone might have taken Paul out and then we wouldn't have the benefit of all his works. Now that's a new one. Don't kill any bad guys, because they might become apostles. Wow!
Okay, but let's then look at the flip side. Since bad guys kill people, often law abiding people, then what he's really saying is, the bad guys are more likely to become apostles, and therefore we need to let the good ones die.
If anything, I hope all can now see just how unbiblical and illogical this movement is.
God could stop all death right now. But He doesn't because God gives life and He takes life. Death exists because of sin, but that doesn't mean God is not in control over who lives and who dies. Remember. God told the devil that he could not take Job's life. Meaning God is in control. For every time you pick up your gun to fight so as to protect yourself, you are living in fear and you are not living in faith that God is your protector. You have to help God in protecting yourself because you don't think God will protect you.
At least he was doing something? He was persecuting Christians. He even stood by while Steven was stoned. What was he doing then? Collecting coats. Sure sounds great. But you are ignoring the point. If you seek to kill, even in self defense, you could be setting out to killing the next Paul who could lead many to Christ.
E
I wasn't always a pacifist. I'm actually in the U.S. Air Force and leaving in the process of leaving it as a conscientious objector.
The reason why I became a pacifist is that it makes more sense. Those who support war and self-defense seem to find certain verses in the New Testament to be almost inexplicable or are required to dumb them down pass their meaning while putting a huge bolder of meaning on one or two verses that are scattered throughout the New Testament (namely the one when Jesus tells His disciples to buy swords...even though he directly rebukes Peter for using it afterwards and basically tells him not to use it again).
With pacifism there is historical precedent, biblical precedent, and tons of verses. The main thing that supports the contrary is the natural human instinct to rely upon ourselves and the natural human instinct (the evil one) that trusting God alone just isn't enough and the Just War theory which was written hundreds of years after the death of Christ and was only written because people started to question why it was suddenly okay for Christians to start being bloody people even if it was in self defense or defense of the innocents (i.e. a just war).
Do not think I've taken this matter lightly. I'm in the military and my whole church believes serving in the military is fine but I have seen the results. I have seen people question the oaths that the military makes us make to evil governments. I have seen people question the satanic things that happen in the army infantry (even in my church that supports the military)!
I've seen people take the cheek verse and say "I'll let them get taht first hit, but the Bible don't say nothing about a second hit!" My theology is not a theology of convenience, as many would like to have (such as the person I just quoted). It's not based upon practicality. My theology is trusting in the words of Jesus and following Him, even if everyone else (my church included) thinks I'm crazy, I'm going to follow Jesus.
That is why I quoted Mueller. People look at him with deery eyes now because he trusted God and raised up several orphanages without asking man for a penny. He just prayed to God. But people back then probably thought he was crazy and irresponsible.
Thats why I mention Bunyan who went to prison for 10+ years for preaching and could have left at any time if he just promised not to preach. Cultural Christianity accepts him today and says what he did was okay. But back then folks thought he was crazy too. Get out of there Bunyan! You have to provide for your family! You cant trust God to do everything for your silly self! What about your wife and your blind daughter? Get it together stop being selfish. God doesn't need you to preach! Yet this was a mighty man who was used by God to give us the Pilgrim's Progress.
I'm laying my cards down. If Christ wanted us to respond to violence with violence (as we have called defense in this thread), there should be a precedent either in the Bible or in the early church works, but I haven't heard of one yet. All the evidence is directly on the contrary unless you start pulling up verses about the holy wars in the Old Testament and that's just not being intellectually honest.
The reason why I became a pacifist is that it makes more sense. Those who support war and self-defense seem to find certain verses in the New Testament to be almost inexplicable or are required to dumb them down pass their meaning while putting a huge bolder of meaning on one or two verses that are scattered throughout the New Testament (namely the one when Jesus tells His disciples to buy swords...even though he directly rebukes Peter for using it afterwards and basically tells him not to use it again).
With pacifism there is historical precedent, biblical precedent, and tons of verses. The main thing that supports the contrary is the natural human instinct to rely upon ourselves and the natural human instinct (the evil one) that trusting God alone just isn't enough and the Just War theory which was written hundreds of years after the death of Christ and was only written because people started to question why it was suddenly okay for Christians to start being bloody people even if it was in self defense or defense of the innocents (i.e. a just war).
Do not think I've taken this matter lightly. I'm in the military and my whole church believes serving in the military is fine but I have seen the results. I have seen people question the oaths that the military makes us make to evil governments. I have seen people question the satanic things that happen in the army infantry (even in my church that supports the military)!
I've seen people take the cheek verse and say "I'll let them get taht first hit, but the Bible don't say nothing about a second hit!" My theology is not a theology of convenience, as many would like to have (such as the person I just quoted). It's not based upon practicality. My theology is trusting in the words of Jesus and following Him, even if everyone else (my church included) thinks I'm crazy, I'm going to follow Jesus.
That is why I quoted Mueller. People look at him with deery eyes now because he trusted God and raised up several orphanages without asking man for a penny. He just prayed to God. But people back then probably thought he was crazy and irresponsible.
Thats why I mention Bunyan who went to prison for 10+ years for preaching and could have left at any time if he just promised not to preach. Cultural Christianity accepts him today and says what he did was okay. But back then folks thought he was crazy too. Get out of there Bunyan! You have to provide for your family! You cant trust God to do everything for your silly self! What about your wife and your blind daughter? Get it together stop being selfish. God doesn't need you to preach! Yet this was a mighty man who was used by God to give us the Pilgrim's Progress.
I'm laying my cards down. If Christ wanted us to respond to violence with violence (as we have called defense in this thread), there should be a precedent either in the Bible or in the early church works, but I haven't heard of one yet. All the evidence is directly on the contrary unless you start pulling up verses about the holy wars in the Old Testament and that's just not being intellectually honest.
I have much faith, but god does not involve Himself in the affairs of this world,He is not in control of this world, satan is. He does answer prayer in His way. so your saying gods wants people to go into schools and shoot children, He wants a child to starve every 15 seconds on this planet, thats millions a year, He wants people to commit adultery. God does not want any of these bad things to happen. I dont live in fear, perfect love cast out fear. And He made me smart enough to protect myself.
E
In addition to this, I am also finding my evidence based on studying current missions (rather than just biblical or early church missions). I've read so many stories of God doing the fighting for people. Even one when one guy was a black belt and a village shaman was calling him out to fight. God told the missionary to stand down because He will do His fighting for him for now on. When they were about to fight, the shaman fell over as dead.
I don't think we will truly start seeing the power of God in our lives until we realize that our fist is not the fist of God. And that His is much much more powerful and effective than ours.
I don't think we will truly start seeing the power of God in our lives until we realize that our fist is not the fist of God. And that His is much much more powerful and effective than ours.
C
Curious, Ecclesiastik, do you believe the Old Testament teaches pacifism? Do you believe Abraham was in sin when he rescued Lot for instance. Do you believe the death penalty command in Gen. 9? And if the O.T. advocates justified self defense, can you name me a single N.T. verse the overrides this?
Also, you seem to be saying that Christ told us to buy arms, but never to use them? Could you develop that though more?
Also, what is your view on Romans 13 that specifically gives the state the right to use the sword?
Lastly, if someone came to your home and threatened your family, would you call the police, knowing they can use lethal force?
Also, you seem to be saying that Christ told us to buy arms, but never to use them? Could you develop that though more?
Also, what is your view on Romans 13 that specifically gives the state the right to use the sword?
Lastly, if someone came to your home and threatened your family, would you call the police, knowing they can use lethal force?
E
1. O.T.- I addressed that in my last post. Please read it without skimming.
2. Christ telling disciples to buy arms then rebuking Peter for using them-- Can you explain that? Certainly you cannot build an entire branch of theology off of one verse that, if interpreted as "Buying and using arms for defense is okay" is immediately contradicted when Christ said "For those who take the sword will perish with the sword." He just as easily could have said "It's not the time right now Peter." But He didn't. He made such a broad and general statement "All those who take the sword, Lord?" "Yes, all of them."
3. Romans 13: The state does have the power. That's why we submit to their judgement. Paul even submitted to the judgement of the state when he said "If I have done something wrong, I do not refuse to die." but at the same time he didn't say "It's cool for you guys to kill me and you can still be Christians."
4. I don't know. If someone came into my home and threatened me, I would likely start praying first. I believe in a living God. Not a dead one who doesn't interact with this world. A lot of Christians are no better than Deists. They think God doesn't do anything and is distant from everyone. No He's just distant from those who don't trust Him enough.
2. Christ telling disciples to buy arms then rebuking Peter for using them-- Can you explain that? Certainly you cannot build an entire branch of theology off of one verse that, if interpreted as "Buying and using arms for defense is okay" is immediately contradicted when Christ said "For those who take the sword will perish with the sword." He just as easily could have said "It's not the time right now Peter." But He didn't. He made such a broad and general statement "All those who take the sword, Lord?" "Yes, all of them."
3. Romans 13: The state does have the power. That's why we submit to their judgement. Paul even submitted to the judgement of the state when he said "If I have done something wrong, I do not refuse to die." but at the same time he didn't say "It's cool for you guys to kill me and you can still be Christians."
4. I don't know. If someone came into my home and threatened me, I would likely start praying first. I believe in a living God. Not a dead one who doesn't interact with this world. A lot of Christians are no better than Deists. They think God doesn't do anything and is distant from everyone. No He's just distant from those who don't trust Him enough.