The Sin of Pacifism

[kennethcadwell]

No, doubt is not good or healthy in your spiritual walk with God. Doubt is the exact opposite of faith; And without faith, it is impossible to please Him. Picking up a gun shows one's lack of faith in God unless God (Like in the Old Testament) told you specifically to attack such and such evil nation.

What you say is true, but do you believe you can make a mountain move just by saying it to, or make a tree wither ?

OK I see we are going back to the faith thing so ill state this again.

I have such faith and trust in God that I would be willing to put my salvation on the line to protect someone to the point in case I had to kill to stop an assailent.

If that isn't faith then what is? Yep I also trust in the Sovereignty of God enough to do the same.

So how strong is your faith in God? Would you be willing to put your salvation on the line to protect?

Yes putting your life on the line to protect another is faith, for it is what we are told to do.
Your salvation would not be on the line if you get killed in your attempt to protect another, what would be on line is judgment on you by our Lord if you initiate more force than necessary to stop an attack or persecution on another.
If you can avoid killing the assailant in order to stop them, but you kill them any way you will need to ask forgiveness of that sin.

 

[Jason0047]

Please listen to this. Just skip ahead to minute 2:15 (2 minutes and 15 seconds) and listen to a great song by Lincoln Brewster titled "Psalm 91."

[video=youtube;Z4s-In6ouS0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4s-In6ouS0[/video]

 

[tourist]

I am sorry, unless God has given you a written or spoken command (Which would run contrary to His Word for believers under the New Testament), then it isn't faith to kill an attacker but it is disobedience of the Lord's command to love your enemies.

Oh, and how exactly is you killing someone in self defense putting your salvation on the line?

I would think living by faith that God is your protector (Because He told us to love our enemies) and laying down your life for your faith in submission to God's will is more noble and good. For that is what Jesus did. He laid down His life to save us and we are to live by His example. No? Or do you follow another Jesus not shown in the Scriptures?

Does this mean that the innocent people that are savaged and murdered did not have God as their protector?

 

[JesusIsAll]

Yes some sins in our eyes are worse than others, but if you want to make a death judgment call on some one for their sin then you must accept to have judgment of death put on you

Interesting private doctrine, but everybody Christian knows the Lord requires repentance, that those who have not repented are none of His. Consider these statements of our Lord Jesus, when you consider this popular, but highly erroneous doctrine of willy-nilly forgiveness of any and all things that turns unrepentant evil into license, au contraire,

Luke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him.

Neither is self defense a sin. This is not malice murder where anybody would have, otherwise, been killed by the defender. It is not really murder at all to stop a violent offender, rather justifiable homicide in universal legal systems the Lord ordained of governments. Now, if the criminal stops in his tracks soon enough, says, "I repent!", and heads for the exit, then maybe some of you would actually have something of basis in reality to talk about.

 

[elf3]

OK so I just scrolled back to where I made a public apology to you jason. You have posted 6 times since I made that apology. Did you know you did not once acknowledge that I apologized? You didn't have the decency as a human, let alone a Christian, to even acknowledge it publicly. Shoot not even privately did you acknowledge it.

Hmm you talk big about not harming people but you can't forgive for a mistake made by accident not knowing you had a fiancee.

No, too late now for anything you just showed your true colors for everyone to see.

 

[elf3]

Oh and no I don't need it from you jason I just kinda thought it odd by how righteous you speak.

That's all

 

[kennethcadwell]

Interesting private doctrine, but everybody Christian knows the Lord requires repentance, that those who have not repented are none of His. Consider these statements of our Lord Jesus, when you consider this popular, but highly erroneous doctrine of willy-nilly forgiveness of any and all things that turns unrepentant evil into license, au contraire,

Luke 17:3-4 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him.

Neither is self defense a sin. This is not malice murder where anybody would have, otherwise, been killed by the defender. It is not really murder at all to stop a violent offender, rather justifiable homicide in universal legal systems the Lord ordained of governments. Now, if the criminal stops in his tracks soon enough, says, "I repent!", and heads for the exit, then maybe some of you would actually have something of basis in reality to talk about.

Yes I understand that, but there are those who walk around thinking a kill first mentality is correct.
Therefore they won't repent of that sin, because they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing.

What I gave is not private doctrine, Jesus makes it clear that if you do not forgive others then you will not be forgiven.
This goes hand and hand with judgment, if you make a judgment call on somebodies life you are not forgiving them.

Our Lord Jesus says vengeance is His, we are to leave life and death decisions to Him.
If we end up taking some ones life in self defense, or in defending another we must pray to the Lord to forgive us for doing this because we were left with no choice.

You mention the governments laws, which we are to follow unless they contradict His.
We know this because when the antichrist comes to power and initiates his governmental system, if a believe turns and follows his law system they will have their share in the lake of fire.

 

[Jason0047]

What you say is true, but do you believe you can make a mountain move just by saying it to, or make a tree wither ?

Jesus said all things are possible with God. Jesus said that which he did to the fig tree we can do the same, as well. There is no reason to doubt Him. While I believe it would be possible to move a mountain if it served God's purpose and plans, the word, "mountains" in Bible language is actually in reference to kingdoms; And we know that kingdoms have fallen or been removed by God's people many times thru out Biblical history. So yes. I believe no enemy or kingdom can stand against that believer who says to be removed (If they are guided by the Spirit of God to say such a thing). For various nations have fallen or been removed from power in being a mountain and have become a hill (instead) thru out history.

 

[elf3]

"I see your true colors shining thru" I don't know some singers sang this song lol

 

[blue_ladybug]

"I see your true colors shining thru" I don't know some singers sang this song lol

​Cyndi Lauper sings it..lol..

 

[Jason0047]

Does this mean that the innocent people that are savaged and murdered did not have God as their protector?

Good and bad things happen to both good and bad people. Also, these people you speak of are not dead for eternity (Unless they are unbelievers). This Earth is not the ultimate reality. People still live on in the after life as spirit and still see, hear, and feel; And for a believer: We know that the Scriptures teach that the sufferings of this present time shall not be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in us (Romans 8:18).

 

[kennethcadwell]

Jesus said all things are possible with God. Jesus said that which he did to the fig tree we can do the same, as well. There is no reason to doubt Him. While I believe it would be possible to move a mountain if it served God's purpose and plans, the word, "mountains" in Bible language is actually in reference to kingdoms; And we know that kingdoms have fallen or been removed by God's people many times thru out Biblical history. So yes. I believe no enemy or kingdom can stand against that believer who says to be removed (If they are guided by the Spirit of God to say such a thing). For various nations have fallen or been removed from power in being a mountain and have become a hill (instead) thru out history.

Mountains in bible also refer to major personal issues.
No matter how bad you have it, if you put all your faith and trust in the Lord Jesus you can move past them and improve your life if that be God's will.

This all reminds me of the girl in Waco, Texas. She had a gun pointed to her, and told her to renounce Jesus as her Lord and Savior or die. She did not, and the guy shot and killed her.
Could God have stopped that from happening ? YES
He did not though because I believe by what I have seen, it was His will that she died for her Savior and in turn by seeing her sacrifice for her faith 100's of others came to know Christ.

God's will is the key point that all must realize, if it is His will then it will be done.
I do not believe that God's will is a kill first mentality as some think is acceptable, if His will was kill first He would not have sent Jesus to take the punishment, and be the sacrifice for all.
He wants all of us to come to repentance, if one judges and takes that chance away from some one when they did not need to go that far then they are in the wrong for killing.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Yes I understand that, but there are those who walk around thinking a kill first mentality is correct. Therefore they won't repent of that sin, because they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing.

Yes, it's quite possible somebody is itching to use that gun, this sinful, and I've seen some indications of this online, here and there over the years, but I know nobody and have never known anybody who wants to ever have to deal with the situation, myself, nor is a sudden violent crime situation one you're likely given time or many choices. The bottom line goal is to stop the unwanted attack. I know it's a "God forbid" matter I should have to do this, but I neither have an iota bad conscience to defend the sanctity of innocent lives from such evil. Beyond various scriptures supporting the concept of self defense from crime, it's not even a serious discussion.

 

[Jason0047]

"I see your true colors shining thru" I don't know some singers sang this song lol

Funny you bring that up; The Christian song "True Colors" by Chaya actually speaks against everyone's lack of faith here in God being their protector in this life:

[video=youtube;fES4rUMWykI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fES4rUMWykI[/video]

 

[Calminian]

Funny you bring that up; The Christian song "True Colors" by Chaya actually speaks against everyone's lack of faith here in God being their protector in this life:...

Actually, isn't your willingness to call people with guns an example of your lack of faith. I see no difference. You won't use a gun yourself, but will rely on people with guns instead of God and his angels.

any pacifist willing to do this is violating everything they stand for.

 

[elf3]

Funny you bring that up; The Christian song "True Colors" by Chaya actually speaks against everyone's lack of faith here in God being their protector in this life:

[video=youtube;fES4rUMWykI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fES4rUMWykI[/video]

Kinda funny you bring this up....

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes, it's quite possible somebody is itching to use that gun, this sinful, and I've seen some indications of this online, here and there over the years, but I know nobody and have never known anybody who wants to ever have to deal with the situation, myself, nor is a sudden violent crime situation one you're likely given time or many choices. The bottom line goal is to stop the unwanted attack. I know it's a "God forbid" matter I should have to do this, but I neither have an iota bad conscience to defend the sanctity of innocent lives from such evil. Beyond various scriptures supporting the concept of self defense from crime, it's not even a serious discussion.

I don't have a bad conscience either about defending somebody.
What I will feel bad about, and feel through the Holy Spirit in my heart if I am put in a situation and the out come is that I was left with not choice, or in the conflict took another's life I will feel bad about that.
A lost soul is never something to be satisfied with, no matter what the situation was that caused them to be lost.

Just like the parable of the lost sheep says;

Luke 15:7
[SUP] [/SUP]I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

 

[elf3]

​Cyndi Lauper sings it..lol..

Who did she sing it with?

And I am pretty sure at least you know why I am singing it lol

Great now it's stuck in my head lol

 

[elf3]

Funny you bring that up; The Christian song "True Colors" by Chaya actually speaks against everyone's lack of faith here in God being their protector in this life:

[video=youtube;fES4rUMWykI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fES4rUMWykI[/video]

Dear Lord protect me as I am willing to protect these people. Lord forgive me if I must use lethal force to stop this act of violence.

 

[Calminian]

Then why does one need the gun to shoot people's heads off ....

But Jason i would turn and ask that question to you. You keep dodging this, but you claim that you will call the police to help you, knowing they can and often will shoot people's heads off. Why does one need to do this?