We establish the Law...but how?

[just-me]

I'm asking about Rom 3 and 4. So far I take it you see Rom 3:31 'establishing the law' as a result of our walk.

After 73 posts I take it that you don't get it no matter how well it's explained. Or is it that you want to see something different in Romans 3:31 than what it simply and understandably says? I am thinking that it might be the latter. So explain to the rest of us what you understand at this point about this one simple verse so all the rest of us can comprehend your honest thoughts.

Abraham in Romans 4 faith establishes the law.

Hebrews 11:8-9
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out , not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:24-30
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured , as seeing him who is invisible.
28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned .
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down , after they were compassed about seven days.

By faith they established the law, and by faith we establish the law. It's really simple.

 

[cfultz3]

hmm...there is no righteousness apart from Christ, right?

those who kept the outward performance of the Law were blameless,
but that's not the same thing as righteous, I'm thinking.

those whom Christ brought with Him after He was raised from the dead
can only have been righteous by faith.
faith that God would one day send their Messiah. (and all that entails)
right?

The Law had its righteousness.

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:​

But, Christ ended that for those who believe.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.​

Because we no longer have our righteousness (right standing with God) through Law, we no longer go to Hades to await our Messiah because our righteousness is now found in Him through faith.

 

[psychomom]

But, for them to have made it to Abraham's Bosom, would they not have had to done the righteousness of the Law, down to the last sacrifice? They who fulfilled the Law, received their Messiah. They who were lawless, as it is with us, did not/will not receive their Messiah. But, are/will be on the other side of that prism which separated the then Abraham's Bosom from the corruption which Christ did not see when He went there.

this has me wondering...do you think the only people God saved
before Christ (in our time reference) were Jews?

 

[just-me]

It does say we establish the Law, but how? Thru our walk of 'obedience' or exalting Christ's perfect obedience to the Law?
It really isn't a hard question I keep asking you.

There are 2 "we's" in that verse. Christ has already established the law by fulfilling it.

Does God then make void the law through His faithfulness? God forbid : yea, His intention is to establish the law in us.

Now it's our turn through faith to follow Him. It's not hard. Let me put a negative on this verse to see the counterpoint.

Do we then make faith void by establishing the law? God forbid; for then we are establishing nothing.

The verse is rhetorical. It doesn't need to be explained, but meditated on. Selah

Paul answers his own question for our understanding. There is no question. It's already answered.

 

[crossnote]

It seems some of us see Rom 3:31 having to do with Christ's obedience and our justification while others are thinking in terms of our walk of obedience and sanctification.
Look closely at chapters 3 and 4. Is it's context justification or sanctification?

After 73 posts I take it that you don't get it no matter how well it's explained. Or is it that you want to see something different in Romans 3:31 than what it simply and understandably says? I am thinking that it might be the latter. So explain to the rest of us what you understand at this point about this one simple verse so all the rest of us can comprehend your honest thoughts.

Abraham in Romans 4 faith establishes the law.

Hebrews 11:8-9
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out , not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:24-30
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured , as seeing him who is invisible.
28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned .
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down , after they were compassed about seven days.

By faith they established the law, and by faith we establish the law. It's really simple.

I gave my answer from post 65 above. I'm talking only in context of Rom 3:31. Is that too difficult?

 

[chubbena]

In context Paul quoted much more than Psalm 14, when showing that the whole world (not just those who say in their heart 'there is no God') stood guilty before God...

Romans 3:9-19 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Again, why Paul was quoting Psalm and what Paul was saying: If one does not acknowledge God, it's futile and not possible to keep any law. If one acknowledges God, one would acknowledge the Word of God. The Word of God provided a way for redemption first typified by animal sacrifices then fulfilled by His sacrifice. Paul said "though Christ I can do all things."
Indeed through Christ we can do all things. Thought the faith in Him we uphold the law.
And yes, this is my response to your post #65 too.

 

[cfultz3]

Which position of the above do you take? It does say we establish the Law, but how? Thru our walk of 'obedience' or exalting Christ's perfect obedience to the Law?
It really isn't a hard question I keep asking you.

KJV says THE LAW.

Textus Receptus: Rom 3:31 νομονG3551 N-ASM (no 'the' here) ουνG3767 CONJ καταργουμενG2673 V-PAI-1P διαG1223 PREP τηςG3588 T-GSF πιστεωςG4102 N-GSF μηG3361 PRT-N γενοιτοG1096 V-2ADO-3S αλλαG235 CONJ νομονG3551 N-ASM (no 'the' here) ιστωμενG2476 V-PAI-1P

What position do I take? The one I made, of course.

If we establish the Law, then we all better start leaning the Law. But then again, it says that no one shall be justified by the Law.

You asked:

How do we establish the Law, through obedience? The verse says: faith is not the instrument used (through) to void law. This verse cannot answer your question because we do not establish 'THE Law' which we have been liberated from. But faith does establish law, because the Spirit leads by the Law we know as God's Law, the Law Paul said is written upon our hearts.

How do we establish the Law, through Christ's perfect obedience to the Law? Christ's perfect obedience to 'the Law' ushered in the Law from the Spirit, the Law which fulfills God's Law through love, and not fulfilling 'the Law' of sin and death.​

My answer:

It is faith which establishes law. Faith does not void law. We are not under 'the Law', but under 'God's Law'.​

 

[just-me]

I gave my answer from post 65 above. I'm talking only in context of Rom 3:31. Is that too difficult?

I thought that the thread was about faith that establishes the law in us rather than justification and sanctification. Are you changing your own thread because you understand Romans 3:31 now?

 

[cfultz3]

this has me wondering...do you think the only people God saved
before Christ (in our time reference) were Jews?

Not at all:

Rom 2:12-16 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[crossnote]

Again, why Paul was quoting Psalm and what Paul was saying: If one does not acknowledge God, it's futile and not possible to keep any law. If one acknowledges God, one would acknowledge the Word of God. The Word of God provided a way for redemption first typified by animal sacrifices then fulfilled by His sacrifice. Paul said "though Christ I can do all things."
Indeed through Christ we can do all things. Thought the faith in Him we uphold the law.
And yes, this is my response to your post #65 too.

the passage included more than those who did not acknowledge God...


Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

 

[RedTent]

How many times should one repeat themselves, over many threads? How many times post the critical scripture verses on the subject, involving the most basic of Christian doctrine?

You repeat that we are saved only by faith and grace over and over, and that is NOT what the objections to your is about.

Everyone on both sides repeats over and over we are saved by faith and grace only. Please hear that. It is true.

What the objections to this is that by saying that you always go on with the lie that we are not to listen to or obey the law. That is the lie about the gospel that is objectionable to people who are saved by faith and grace.

 

[chubbena]

the passage included more than those who did not acknowledge God...


Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

It only proves that neither Jews nor gentiles truly acknowledged God and shows the only way to acknowledge is to have faith in Christ i.e. the living Word of God - and that faith establishes the law, which spoke through Moses by the Word of God.

 

[Kerry]

It only proves that neither Jews nor gentiles truly acknowledged God and shows the only way to acknowledge is to have faith in Christ i.e. the living Word of God - and that faith establishes the law, which spoke through Moses by the Word of God.

I almost liked it. it is faith in the cross and nothing else including law. You can not keep law without faith in the cross, it is impossible.

 

[RedTent]

I almost liked it. it is faith in the cross and nothing else including law. You can not keep law without faith in the cross, it is impossible.

Kerry, give it up!!! You have an idea of law that is so far off base that you would have to wipe your head clean of all the ideas in it in regard to law, then go to only scripture nothing else, and fill it up again with all scripture says about law.

I would dare you to do this. There is software available to help you even more than the old fashioned concordance to give you a list of all the scripture you need. But you would have to agree not to cherry pick and keep that promise. Scripture is truth, accept it.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Question. Did Paul discover the mystery of the gospel? What was that mystery? That God divorced the House of Israel and according to His own law cannot remarry her.

Jer_3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

How does this relate to "We establish the Law...but how? I believe it does.

Further we understand God's plan...

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

AND

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

A covenant is a marriage agreement. But God will not break His own law. So God's solution, which was a mystery until Jesus taught it to Paul, "God with us... Emanuel" Came to us and died for us, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (I prefer to call Him Yeshua). But it doesn't just end there, we too must die to our old nature and be baptized and raise up to a newness of life with Christ.

Do I hear an AMEN? HalleluYAH!!

 

[Apostol2013]

It seems some of us see Rom 8:31 having to do with Christ's obedience and our justification while others are thinking in terms of our walk of obedience and sanctification.
Look closely at chapters 3 and 4. Is it's context justification or sanctification?

well that is where the righteous way is kept not for any self righteousness but righteousness in the spirit with a sincere walk . we know that there is no higher power than God , and that God is holy as we were taught be holy for I am holy , the carnal man will allways understand things from a defeated viewpoint but by faith we serve a God not only by word but with holy spirit and power

 

[Apostol2013]

I almost liked it. it is faith in the cross and nothing else including law. You can not keep law without faith in the cross, it is impossible.

still no substance right phrase but not seeking deeper , go deeper and you will see

 

[Apostol2013]

Question. Did Paul discover the mystery of the gospel? What was that mystery? That God divorced the House of Israel and according to His own law cannot remarry her.

Jer_3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

How does this relate to "We establish the Law...but how? I believe it does.

Further we understand God's plan...

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

AND

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

A covenant is a marriage agreement. But God will not break His own law. So God's solution, which was a mystery until Jesus taught it to Paul, "God with us... Emanuel" Came to us and died for us, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (I prefer to call Him Yeshua). But it doesn't just end there, we too must die to our old nature and be baptized and raise up to a newness of life with Christ.

Do I hear an AMEN? HalleluYAH!!

god never divorced israel read isaiah , God may be angereed but does not divorce israel look even on the book of revelations and even read pauls letters , now read learn and understand that you may be a more solid disciplined believer

 

[crossnote]

I thought that the thread was about faith that establishes the law in us rather than justification and sanctification. Are you changing your own thread because you understand Romans 3:31 now?

The whole context of Rom 3 and 4 is justification. I never said that it 'was about faith that establishes the law in us'. Never used the word 'in'.

 

[crossnote]

It only proves that neither Jews nor gentiles truly acknowledged God and shows the only way to acknowledge is to have faith in Christ i.e. the living Word of God - and that faith establishes the law, which spoke through Moses by the Word of God.

Ok, so faith lifts up Christ as the only one who kept the law in or staed.