We establish the Law...but how?

[WomanLovesTX]

god never divorced israel read isaiah , God may be angereed but does not divorce israel look even on the book of revelations and even read pauls letters , now read learn and understand that you may be a more solid disciplined believer

From Isaiah we read

Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

 

[crossnote]

well that is where the righteous way is kept not for any self righteousness but righteousness in the spirit with a sincere walk . we know that there is no higher power than God , and that God is holy as we were taught be holy for I am holy , the carnal man will allways understand things from a defeated viewpoint but by faith we serve a God not only by word but with holy spirit and power

So you see Rom 3:31 speaking of our walk even though the whole context points to Christ's obedience?

It seems some of us see Rom 3:31 having to do with Christ's obedience and our justification while others are thinking in terms of our walk of obedience and sanctification.

Look closely at chapters 3 and 4. Is it's context justification or sanctification?

 

[Revelator7]

Cross this what I have been trying to say. Christ did not abolish the law. The law is from God and therefore good as Paul states. The problem with the law is that no man could keep it in totality. Then sin nature ruled over men. The sacrifices only covered this sin and did not remove it. Remember that God said I require your first born and you could substitute a lamb. OT men were driven to sin and had no release from it. They were slaves to sin. The sacrifice pointed to the promise given to Eve. That she would have a son that Satan would bruise hi heel and He would bruise his head.

Fast forward to the cross. God gave His Firstborn for the freedom of sin for those who had faith in what He did. Then we learn that the Holy Spirit comes and helps us. Helps us to do what? keep Gods moral code I.E the law and when I say law I mean the ten commandments not the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law was given as pretense to the cross. Remember the bronze snake on the pole (the Cross). when the student prophet lost the axe head in the river and Elisha said throw in the stick and the axe head floated ( the cross).

By having faith in the cross and not your works allows the Holy Spirit to produce fruit in you and keep you to God's moral code unless you fall to temptation and if we di He is just to forgive us if we repent.

It is by my Spirit saith Lord lest any man should boast.

Well said.

 

[lioncub]

We establish the law by not tearing it down but by standing it up as the standard.

 

[just-me]

The whole context of Rom 3 and 4 is justification. I never said that it 'was about faith that establishes the law in us'. Never used the word 'in'.

IC
So your question is how do we establish the law, and that's it?
The answer is simple. The law isn't made void with real faith. It is void with fictitious faith.

Romans 3:31 is not a question. It's how it works. The verse doesn't say how it is done, it says it is done, and we are involved because of our reaction to God's actions through Christ called "faith" in God.
So if you never used the word "in" your question would be 'How do we established the law without (not "in") faith'? If faith isn't "in" us why be involved?
We don't establish our own faith either because it's a gift.

Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith (not "in") it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[just-me]

So you see Rom 3:31 speaking of our walk even though the whole context points to Christ's obedience?

Your understanding of the verse is upside down even though you have it right in part. We have faith because of Christ and we are to walk in that faith because of His faithfulness toward us. So if the whole context points toward Christ (the "whole" as entire) we are "inwardly" not involved, just like you indicated in this post.

The whole context of Rom 3 and 4 is justification. I never said that it 'was about faith that establishes the law in us'. Never used the word 'in'.

Now with the way you explained your thoughts the verse could read.
Does Jesus then make void the law through His faithfulness? God forbid : yea, He has established the law.
That is true also, confirming the law is not void, but that isn't what the verse is saying.

Your thoughts concerning the "whole context" involve these
Psalm 89:24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted .

Isaiah 11:1 and 5 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins."

Psalm 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:

 

[RedTent]

We are guided by the word to living for Christ, to put on Christ and die to self. We are in the flesh, but that is still our goal.

Many posters give the goal of defeat only, saying that because Christ was the only one to do it we should never try to follow Christ. Or saying that because we can't we should give it up as the goal. Some say that it is only Christ in us that can do this, so why try to handle our fleshly self. A favorite is saying God sees us as filthy rags anyway, so why fight it? To live for Christ is scorned as self righteousness and arrogance. I don't think these ideas are right at all.

 

[cfultz3]

Last night before going to sleep, I was thinking on Romans 3:31. I wish to show people what it is saying to us and hope they understand.

Rom 3:31 νομονG3551 N-ASM - (law) ουνG3767 CONJ - (accordingly) καταργουμενG2673 V-PAI-1P - (do we render useless (abolished, done away with, make void)) διαG1223 PREP - (through (channel of an act)) τηςG3588 T-GSF πιστεωςG4102 N-GSF - (this faith) μηG3361 PRT-N - (not (qual. neg.)) γενοιτοG1096 V-2ADO-3S - (may it be so) αλλαG235 CONJ - (but rather) νομονG3551 N-ASM - (law) ιστανομενG2476 V-PAI-1P - (we establish (appoint, continue, uphold))


Rom 3:31 Accordingly, do we render law useless (abolished, done away with, make void) through this faith? May it not be so. But rather, we establish (appoint, continue, uphold) law.​

The point I wish to make in this post is the word 'through' (channel of an act). A couple of examples would give us an understading of that word:

Exp 1: I went through Bob to ask Mary for a recipe.
Exp 2: I asked Bob to ask Mary for a recipe.​

In either example, Bob is the instrument I used to ask Mary for a recipe. He was the channel I used for my action.

With that in mind, consider:

Is this faith the instrument used to render law useless? (May it not be so.)
Is this faith the instrument used to establish law? (through this faith, we establish law)​

In conclusion: do not use this faith to abolish law. Use this faith to establish God's law.

 

[Grandpa]

John 15:5 [SUP] [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Only by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ can a person abide in Him.

Only by abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ can a person bring forth fruit.

It is this very fruit that establishes the Law. Fulfills it. And it is only fulfilled by faith in Christ.

None of our works or our will or our strength is enough to approach the blessing with which Christ gives us, freely, because of His Love for us.

Everything we have is a blessing from the Lord Jesus Christ. Even our faith. Even our obedience. (That's the 'without me you can do nothing' part...)

The fruit that is talked about in John 15 is the fruit defined in Galatians 5:22-23. The way to establish and fulfill the Law is by the Spirit, and only by the Spirit, and that doesn't come from us or our works. It comes from abiding in Christ and having Faith in what He has done and what He continues to do.

Those who abide in their own understanding are the ones who work by their own understanding and attempt to cause others to do the same. We have to do this and we have to do that. We must obey. We must have faith. We must walk how He walked. Well that would be fine and dandy if any one of us had the power to do it. Then we could teach each other to just pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and get in there and start fulfilling the Law.

My Grace is sufficient for thee. For my Strength is made perfect in weakness.

You can spend your whole life working so hard. Trying to be, or trying to perform. But if you know you aren't and you know you can't, then the Power of Asking the One who Can is brilliant and beautiful.

God is blessing you. Has blessed you. Continues to bless you.

 

[chubbena]

I almost liked it. it is faith in the cross and nothing else including law. You can not keep law without faith in the cross, it is impossible.

Whether you like it or not the Son was crucified because He spoke through Paul that the wage of sin is death and because of God's love for man the Son died on behalf of those who believe in Him. If the law is excluded then there is no sin to speak of and if there is no sin there is no wage of sin to speak of and if there is no wage of sin then there is no penalty of death to speak of and if there is no penalty of death then the Son of God died for nothing.

 

[BradC]

After 73 posts I take it that you don't get it no matter how well it's explained. Or is it that you want to see something different in Romans 3:31 than what it simply and understandably says? I am thinking that it might be the latter. So explain to the rest of us what you understand at this point about this one simple verse so all the rest of us can comprehend your honest thoughts.

Abraham in Romans 4 faith establishes the law.

Hebrews 11:8-9
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out , not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Hebrews 11:24-30
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured , as seeing him who is invisible.
28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned .
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down , after they were compassed about seven days.

By faith they established the law, and by faith we establish the law. It's really simple.

Your question was, 'but how'?

The post and exercise was meant not to distort the scriptures but to illustrate the difference between the law and grace. Your point concerning (Rom 3:31) has nothing to do with us establishing the law through deeds or in keeping it. The law is not established in that manner. There are two points concerning the law, one being our relationship to the law and the second is the relationship of the law to sinners saved by grace. Which point is Paul making when he says...'Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The laws relationship to us is not made void by our faith because the law does not change. If I covet, I have sinned and offended Christ and the Holy Spirit. Our faith in the righteousness of Christ that justifies us does not change the law, but it is not the law that justifies us when we were sinners or when we sin, rather the sinner is justified by grace and the blood of Christ. Our faith in the righteousness of Christ establishes the law (which includes the 10 commandments) for the purpose of which the law was given, because of transgressions and to make sin exceedingly sinful, so that the whole world would be guilty and every mouth might be stopped of boasting of their own righteousness.

However, the law has been made void for the purpose of establishing righteousness through its deeds and made inoperative because Christ was judged and bore our sin and was crucified on the cross, putting and taking away all sin (including iniquity, transgressions and all trespasses), offering his own righteousness to the Father on our behalf and has also given the Holy Spirit unto those who believe in his blood sacrifice for all sin. So our relationship to the law has changed and we are no longer under the law for righteousness but under grace, making the law inoperative because we now have the Spirit pf truth that has made us new creatures in Christ and who convicts the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.

When we walk and are led by the Spirit through faith we are not under the law (the whole law Gal 5:18) and we live by the glory of the ministration of the Spirit that has exceeded and excelled the law, making it obsolete and causing it to be done away (2 Cor 3:5-10). The reference made to the law is the whole law which includes the law of the (10) commandments. You can't separate the law of the (10) commandments from the whole law, James did not do that (James 2:10), so by what authority do some of you? Even Jesus said that the scriptures can not be broken (John 10:35).

 

[chubbena]

Ok, so faith lifts up Christ as the only one who kept the law in or staed.

And again Paul said "through Christ I can do all things" did that all things exclude the keeping of the law?

Is a new being in Christ who walks in the Spirit not able to keep the law?
Only when one misunderstands that to keep the law is to never do anything wrong.

If only one is willing to look at our example i.e. the Israel nation.
Sin offering is for anyone sins unintentionally and does when is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands cf Leviticus 4.
Guilt offering is for a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the Lord's holy things cf Leviticus 5.
And we all know these OT offerings are types for the offering of Christ on the cross.
The reason the book of Hebrews said "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left."

 

[just-me]

Your question was, 'but how'?

I don't have a question about the scripture in question. How it's done is by God's spirit given, for the law is Spiritual, holy, good and just. If a person doesn't have the indwelling Spirit of God, they will always have the unanswered question of "how is this done."

this is my comment on how it's to be understood, and by understanding the implications thereby the question is answered

 

[chubbena]

We are guided by the word to living for Christ, to put on Christ and die to self. We are in the flesh, but that is still our goal.

Many posters give the goal of defeat only, saying that because Christ was the only one to do it we should never try to follow Christ. Or saying that because we can't we should give it up as the goal. Some say that it is only Christ in us that can do this, so why try to handle our fleshly self. A favorite is saying God sees us as filthy rags anyway, so why fight it? To live for Christ is scorned as self righteousness and arrogance. I don't think these ideas are right at all.

Regarding filthy rags, the context reads: "You come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember your ways. But when we continued to sin against them, you were angry. How then can we be saved? All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags."

Only when we continue to sin against His ways our righteous acts are like filthy rags.
When we follow His ways?
This is what the Lord says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls."
This is what the Lord verifies: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest."

 

[just-me]

This is what the Lord says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls."

That's a good one. I remember it, but I read mostly KJV and can't find it. What is the scripture reference to that? Thanks

 

[crossnote]

IC
So your question is how do we establish the law, and that's it?
The answer is simple. The law isn't made void with real faith. It is void with fictitious faith.

Romans 3:31 is not a question. It's how it works. The verse doesn't say how it is done, it says it is done, and we are involved because of our reaction to God's actions through Christ called "faith" in God.
So if you never used the word "in" your question would be 'How do we established the law without (not "in") faith'? If faith isn't "in" us why be involved?
We don't establish our own faith either because it's a gift.

Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith (not "in") it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I know 3:31 is a statement. The question 'how' was mine.
I see you're having trouble with my explanations,...sorry.

 

[crossnote]

And again Paul said "through Christ I can do all things" did that all things exclude the keeping of the law?

Is a new being in Christ who walks in the Spirit not able to keep the law?
Only when one misunderstands that to keep the law is to never do anything wrong.

If only one is willing to look at our example i.e. the Israel nation.
Sin offering is for anyone sins unintentionally and does when is forbidden in any of the Lord's commands cf Leviticus 4.
Guilt offering is for a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the Lord's holy things cf Leviticus 5.
And we all know these OT offerings are types for the offering of Christ on the cross.
The reason the book of Hebrews said "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left."

Cannot some of you for once give Jesus the glory for his perfect obedience (v31) instead of continually want to insert self into the equation? Is not faith a denial of self and a whole hearted reliance on God? Is the law in you still your hope? Are you establishing the law by your imperfect law keeping?

 

[crossnote]

I don't have a question about the scripture in question. How it's done is by God's spirit given, for the law is Spiritual, holy, good and just. If a person doesn't have the indwelling Spirit of God, they will always have the unanswered question of "how is this done."

this is my comment on how it's to be understood, and by understanding the implications thereby the question is answered

How can you say the Spirit? The Spirit isn't mentioned at all in Rom 3. It is all about Christ's law keeping and our law breaking.

 

[Elin]

The purpose of the Law is to define what sin is, so that we will avoid it. A person’s faith in the sacrifice of Christ is what justifies him.
Such a one would be in a repentant state and
would strive to turn away from sin as a way of life, in order to be under grace (unmerited pardon)
and become justified (made right with God).

Nope. . .such a one does not become justified by striving to turn away from sin.

Justification is only by saving faith in Jesus Christ.

Many were not trying to please God when they were given saving faith and justified.
Obedience is the result of justification, it is not the cause of it.

That is why God gives the Holy Spirit to those who strive to, in the human sense, obey Him (Acts 5:32).

Nope. . .the Holy Spirit is an unmerited gift of grace, and is not due to striving to please God.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is due only to unmerited favor (grace).

Many have been given the Holy Spirit who were not striving to please God.
With the gift of the Holy Spirit, they believed, were saved and came into obedience.

Now, if one were theoretically capable of perfect obedience to the Law, that person would not be justified without faith in the sacrifice of Christ. With this understanding, we can see why Romans 2:13 (“the doers of the law are justified”) does not contradict Romans 3:28 (“a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law”). Even Romans 3:31, “we establish the law,” is rendered by the Moffatt translation as “we uphold the Law.” Faith does not preempt obedience—it complements it.

Nope. . .you've got the cart before the horse.

Obedience does not preempt faith, obedience is the result of faith.

 

[cfultz3]

Cannot some of you for once give Jesus the glory for his perfect obedience (v31) instead of continually want to insert self into the equation? Is not faith a denial of self and a whole hearted reliance on God? Is the law in you still your hope? Are you establishing the law by your imperfect law keeping?

Psa 15:1 A Psalm of David. LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
Psa 15:2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
Psa 15:3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
Psa 15:4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
Psa 15:5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.​

The Son speaking to Jehovah

Psa 26:1 A Psalm of David. Judge me, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; therefore I shall not slide.
Psa 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.
Psa 26:3 For thy lovingkindness is before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.
Psa 26:4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers.
Psa 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.
Psa 26:6 I will wash mine hands in innocency: so will I compass thine altar, O LORD:
Psa 26:7 That I may publish with the voice of thanksgiving, and tell of all thy wondrous works.
Psa 26:8 LORD, I have loved the habitation of thy house, and the place where thine honour dwelleth.
Psa 26:9 Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:
Psa 26:10 In whose hands is mischief, and their right hand is full of bribes.
Psa 26:11 But as for me, I will walk in mine integrity: redeem me, and be merciful unto me.
Psa 26:12 My foot standeth in an even place: in the congregations will I bless the LORD.​

Each will give an account of his own deeds:

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.​

I suppose as long as people (not necessarily directed at you personally) think that Christians are without law, then threads of this sort will see those who uphold God's Law explaining that we are still under law from the Spirit.

In conclusion: do not use this faith to abolish law. Use this faith to establish God's law.