We establish the Law...but how?

cfultz3 · Sep 21, 2014

I give you the Word of God:

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Php 2:13 οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM - (the God) γαρG1063 CONJ - (seeing that) εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S - (God is) οG3588 T-NSM ενεργωνG1754 V-PAP-NSM - (the One being active) ενG1722 PREP - (in) υμινG4771 P-2DP - (you*) καιG2532 CONJ - (even) τοG3588 T-ASN - (this) θελεινG2309 V-PAN - (to desire) καιG2532 CONJ - (and) τοG3588 T-ASN - (this) ενεργεινG1754 V-PAN - (to be active) υπερG5228 PREP - (ABOVE (beyond, more than)(KJV: of (G1537))) τηςG3588 T-GSF ευδοκιαςG2107 N-GSF - (His pleasure)

Php 2:13 Seeing that God is the One being active in you*, even this: to desire and to be active (KJV: do (G4160)) ABOVE (beyond, more than)(KJV: of (G1537) His pleasure.

If it is us who must work out our own salvation with fear and tremble without complaining, then it is not God who is performing in us all the deeds we do. If it is God who works in us His will and the doing, then who is at fault when we do not do what He has willed? Certainly not God.

I can agree that God is the One who is active in us to cause us to do more then the minimum.

RedTent · Sep 21, 2014

Elin said:

I know and understand scripture. And again I ask what is your mind and will doing with the word and with the Holy Spirit that is in you?

cfultz3 · Sep 21, 2014

Elin said:

I was thinking we were having a conversation, an exchange of thoughts. That statement you have me saying is a link which answered that.

You replied with a post which I have already replied to with this LINK -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/99588-we-establish-law-but-how-4.html#post1698742

I hope this does not become one of those 'non-responsive' conversations. If it will, let me know and I will move on.

cfultz3 · Sep 21, 2014

crossnote said:

That is okay. We will get you all straightened out....lol (joking)

cfultz3 · Sep 21, 2014

JesusIsAll said:

This is something I've also often noticed, how some are constantly putting words in peoples' mouths never said, criticizing and making accusations involving points nobody even made. It's as if they have some canned argument lined up, though it doesn't reflect your thoughts, much less anything you ever said or even implied, they seem to have to lay on you, anyway. So tiresome. I especially like it when you post voluminous verses of truth, and they rip into you for not providing the right verses to support their blathering.

That is okay. I understand that is the way you communicate. I am not tired of you yet......

Kerry · Sep 21, 2014

Paul say's it is no longer I who lives but Christ through me. What do you think he means by that?

cfultz3 · Sep 21, 2014

Kerry said:

It is not about, 'I live'. It is about, 'Christ lives in me'.

It is not about my 'fleshly live'. It is about living my life, 'by the faith (believe system) from Jesus Christ'.

P.S. 'Through (channel of an act)' is not found in Gal 2:20.

I have to go to sleep now. Goodnight and may God smile upon you

Kerry · Sep 21, 2014

Good night and God bless

Kerry · Sep 21, 2014

I say it that is Paul acknowledging the works that he did as not his own but the works of God and bonafide by his writings becoming bible.

Skinski7 · Sep 21, 2014

psychomom said:

This "climbing the ladder in your own strength" is a strawman argument.

Did Nineveh climb some ladder in their own strength by forsaking their wickedness and seeking God for mercy?

How is forsaking evil and turning to God a false teaching? It is only false to those who believe in "birth depravity" which teaches sinners are unable to forsake their sins. That teaching makes God the author of sin.-

If sinners sin because of a birth state then sinning is not their fault and sin is not rebellion. If sinners sin because of a birth state then sinning has nothing to do with rebellion.

The Bible says this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Yet people like you don't believe that. You don't believe what the Bible teaches even though it is as clear as day.

The Bible says...

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

What would you say to Isaiah? Would you accuse him of "climbing the ladder in his own strength"?

Would you claim to Isaiah that "we cannot choose," would you tell Isaiah that "we have no free will and therefore are not responsible for forsaking our sin because we can't." Is that how you would approach it?

Isaiah wrote...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jeremiah wrote things like...

Jer 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Jer 4:1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.
Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.
Jer 4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

"Return to the Lord" was God's message through Jeremiah. "Put away your abominations" was God's message through Jeremiah.

What is my message? It is the same as that of Jeremiah and Isaiah. Turn from evil and turn to God. It is very simple. Yield to God from the heart and He will raise you up. The same message James preached...

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

Yet you oppose that message. You appear to hate it and refer to it as unbiblical. How many others on this forum hate that message? Many do, and MANY will be rejected at the judgement because they refused to do the will of God, a will revealed when we lay our lives down and abide in Him.

Your message is inability. Your message is that God has to do it for you. Thus you deny repentance. You deny the very words of Jesus when Jesus preached "repent" and when Jesus commanded "go and sin no more." You don't believe Jesus.

People like you will allude to Pauline verses which are ripped from the context and use them to contradict the very words of Jesus. You deny Jesus while you call Him Lord. You claim to follow Jesus yet claim that the sin can never stop and therefore Jesus hasn't saved you from anything. Deception has saved you from the truth unto your destruction because we cannot follow a lie and abide in the truth.

This accusation of "climbing the ladder in your own strength" is a bold face lie and you must know that if you are honest about it. I constantly speak how we must abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ, I constantly speak how it is God's grace which quickens us unto life whereby we are empowered to overcome the world, sin and the devil. Yet none of that means anything to you because I don't preach that the "finished work of the cross" cloaks ongoing wickedness, that it cloaks ongoing iniquity of the heart.

It is such a shame that so many have bought into the lies of the multitudes of false teachers. There is a true famine in the land.

psychomom · Sep 21, 2014

ongoing wickedness?

if you truly think there's no ongoing wickedness in anyone's heart
(including your own)
you have a very shallow sin concept.

Skinski7 · Sep 21, 2014

Kerry said:

Paul means he has submitted Himself wholeheartedly to Jesus Christ and therefore WALKS in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ where the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in Him.

Paul is speaking of a MANIFEST REALITY. That is why John writes...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

John taught that the children of God are MANIFEST in that they do not work unrighteousness. They work righteousness because they are slaves of righteousness. Very few people believe what John teaches there because they have latched onto "sin ye will and sin ye must" and thus utterly deny that faith purifies the heart (Act 15:9). Thus they think salvation is premised on "trusting in the finished work of the cross" in which "the righteousness of Jesus is credited to their account" and "Jesus paid their sin fine making it not due anymore." In other words they think salvation is POSITIONAL and utterly deny any notion that salvation is MANIFEST.

Satan has convinced millions of people that one can be "righteous in position" whilst "manifestly wicked" because they trust in a "provision" which Jesus effected via the cross. These people will then utterly deny the plain teachings of Jesus Christ whilst the claim with their lips that they follow Him. These deceived people are modern Pharisees. The Pharisees claimed salvation in position whilst their hearts were still wicked. The only difference is the Pharisees sought their salvation in the Law of Moses and of being descendents of Abraham. The modern Pharisees seek it in a false theology. The hearts of both peoples are identical.

Skinski7 · Sep 21, 2014

Salvation is actually premised on yielding to God from the heart whereby we approach God in truth seeking a cleansing. There is simply no salvation whilst one remains in rebellion, one MUST repent and forsake their sin through godly sorrow working a genuine repentance unto salvation. Only then will God regenerate anyone because the Holy Spirit cannot indwell a defiled vessel.

Kerry · Sep 22, 2014

Skinski7 said:

I would differ on a few points. Salvation is based on faith in the cross period. Now a saved person can stray and become distraught because now they are under bondage yet they are saved and trust God and genuinely love God. You are correct in saying that God will only regenerate a person who loves God. But it is misguided, The Holy Spirit will only operate in the parameters of the cross. If our faith is placed in anything else, be it works, law, fasting, watching tv preachers, handing out water bottles, feeding the poor. The Holy Spirit backs off and we fail and we cry to God and don't understand whats happening.

We must maintain our faith in the work of the cross.

Skinski7 · Sep 22, 2014

psychomom said:

You simply do not believe the Bible.

Peter wrote...

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

"Ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit therefore love one another with a pure heart fervently."

You don't believe that. You don't believe the heart can be made pure via the Spirit of God. You some how think you are saved whilst remaining wicked. What are you saved from?

You think that the "incorruptible seed of the word of God" cannot cleanse corruption.

Jesus said...

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Ye are clean through the word. You don't literally believe that. You think you are "positionally" clean yet "manifestly wicked" yet what did Jesus teach?

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

No-one can be pure? You mock the words of Jesus and imply He is a liar.

After elaborating on inward sin vs outward sin Jesus makes this statement...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Yet you don't believe it. You imply Jesus is a liar. You imply Jesus is powerless against sin because Jesus cannot redeem you from all iniquity. You think the best God can do in this life is cloak your wickedness with a legal transaction and then pretend you are righteous when you are still wicked. What kind of nonsense is this?

You ignore the plain obvious just like the Pharisees ignored the miracle of the blind man being healed because they did not like what Jesus was teaching. The truth was right in front of them, plain as day, yet they chose to ignore it and stick with the error of their fathers.

psychomom · Sep 22, 2014

i'll bet you break just the first commandment in some profound ways...

yeah...nonsense is the word i'd use for it, too.

kennethcadwell · Sep 22, 2014

James says;

James 2:14-26[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[SUP][a][/SUP] works, and I will show you my faith by my[SUP][b][/SUP] works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! [SUP]20 [/SUP]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? [SUP]22[/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? [SUP]23 [/SUP]And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][d][/SUP] And he was called the friend of God. [SUP]24[/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[SUP]26[/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You can not have one without the other, you don't earn salvation by works but they do work hand and hand with faith.
Our Lord Jesus also says this;

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Lord Jesus makes it clear in the last half of this scripture what happens if you don't do as He says;
( fell; and the ruin of that house was great )

Skinski7 · Sep 22, 2014

Kerry said:

Your faith is in a fiction.

The cross is for this...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You look at the cross as effecting a provision you trust in and refuse to pick up your own cross and die with Christ. If you picked up your own cross and actually followed Jesus then you would be set free from the service of sin and there would be no "we fail" and the "Holy Spirit backs off." The Bible doesn't preach constant failure cloaked by a provision, the Bible teaches victory through Jesus Christ.

Salvation is based of "grace THROUGH faith" (Eph 2:8) where "grace quickens" (Eph 2:5) and where faith is faithfulness (Heb 11:6-9). That is why God is the author of the salvation of those who obey Him (Heb 5:9) because real faith obeys.

Your doctrine has God authoring the faith of the disobedient because faith is simply "trust" and you "trust" in the "finished work of the cross" which you think effected a "provision" which cloaks wickedness.

Jesus specifically warned that MANY false teachers would come and would deceive MANY people. Jesus specifically stated that it is the DOERS of the will of God who will enter the kingdom and He also taught that there would be MANY people who would profess "Lord, Lord" and claim all thus outward service yet they were still workers of iniquity.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Those are the words of Jesus above, the one people many claim they follow yet do not. Many simply "trust in the cross" and think they are saved because of that. Why is it in the book of Acts they did not preach "trust in the cross"? They preached REPENT and BELIEVE. They preached REPENT and DO works which prove repentance, why? Because faith without works is dead. Faith is the ACTIVE DYNAMIC by which we yield to God from an honest and pure heart. If that ACTIVE DYNAMIC does not exist there is no faith, just a profession.

crossnote · Sep 22, 2014

Skinski7 said:

Skinski's Six Steps to Salvation

1. yield to God from the heart
2. repent
3. forsake sin through godly sorrow
4. seek a cleansing
5. cease rebellion
6. only then will God regenerate/indwell the believer.

Skinski7 · Sep 22, 2014

psychomom said:

You see always arguing in favour of sin.

"Oh you must sin. We all sin. Sin we will and sin we must."

"Sin, sin and more sin."

What about righteousness and purity? The Bible teaches righteousness and purity all over the place.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

You won't discuss any of the words of Jesus I quote will you? You don't like those words.

Or how about these words...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

You won't have any of that, instead it's rip 1Jon 1:9 out of context in order to argue in favour of "sin we will and sin we must."

I like this verse...

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

But of course you don't believe that one either because you believe in ongoing wickedness in salvation.

Love out of a pure heart. That is what the Bible teaches, not that saints are sinners.

We establish the Law...but how?

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