We establish the Law...but how?

[Skinski7]

So the law points to the cross and not the other way around. I meant why should I look to the law when it points to the cross, I'm just wasting my time and getting caught up in works of the flesh when the real deal is the cross.

The law points us to Christ not the cross. The cross is the MEANS by which we approach God seeking a cleansing of our past sins. The cross is not something we trust in which effects some judicial abstraction. The cross is just as participatory as the people in the Old Testament had to participate in bringing their sacrifices to the temple.

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law in that Jesus Christ LOVED FROM A PURE HEART. The law was generally a list which pertained to outward conduct, conduct which points to what inward righteousness should manifest. In other words "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not steal" point to LOVE. If we LOVE we don't kill or steal.

The Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death. If we sin we die, it is that simple. Sinning cuts one off from God and perpetual sinning makes it impossible for God to forgive us.

If God is to forgive people only to have those people keep on doing that which He forgave them for then it is a pure mockery of His justice. Would we pardon a murder who is still out there murdering? Would we pardon a child molester who is still molesting children? No, way. That would be a mockery of justice.

It is the same with God. There can be no forgiveness of sins without the root of sin being dealt with. The blood of Christ deals with the root of sin because it purges sin from the soul. The sacrifice of the cross is the means by which sin can be expiated because it deals with the root problem of sin which is a defiled heart. We are the living sacrifice put on the altar and then blood of Christ cleanses us. The blood of the animal was put over the Mercy Seat where it was sprinkled to clean.

1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

We are set apart unto obedience by the Spirit of God and our hearts are cleansed once and for all. That is why there is the warning in Hebrews 10:26-29 about ongoing sin because ongoing sin is a denial of this cleansing. Ongoing sin is trampling the blood as if it cannot truly clean.

That is why the saved in sins message preached practically everywhere is complete blasphemy. People are so blind to what is going on in the churches today. The apostasy is much worse than what happened in Israel because we have the plain testimony of Jesus Christ Himself. We have all the hindsight in the world that there really is no excuse.

 

[Elin]

You probably mis-read the scripture I quoted. I'll quote it again. Considerate on the words "no longer under."

Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come , we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The law is a God given tool for us to use to fulfill His great commission. Here's the way Paul used it because he became all things to all people in order to show them the truth of salvation in Christ Jesus.

"For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:19-20)

It is ironic that some people have determined that there are people in CC that are still under the law because of what they say.
If those who are not under the law would really care as Paul did, they
would use this God given tool that is called the law to gain them as Paul did.

That's some serious improvising.

Paul did not bring anyone to Christ via the law.
Paul used the law in his keeping of it to gain access to them
so as not to be offensive and objectionable to them as were the Gentiles.

looks like an oxymoron,

The oxymoron is not in Paul keeping the law to fit in among them,
but in your bringing the revelation of Christ under the law for the sake of the gospel.

but God's ways are not our ways.

Indeed, they are not.

For he certainly does not bring the revelation of Christ under the law.

 

[Elin]

The law points us to Christ not the cross. The cross is the MEANS by which
we approach God seeking a cleansing of our past sins.

The sinful unregenerate nature is spiritually powerless to seek a cleansing of one's past sins.

Ro 7:7-8: "the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

The unregenerate man cannot pull himself up by his own boot straps to seek cleansing,
he is spiritually powerless, he can't even believe that he needs cleansing,
faith has to be given to him (Php 1:9; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
and which, as long as he is unregenerate, he can't even receive, which would please God,
because the unregenerate cannot please God.

 

[Skinski7]

The sinful unregenerate nature is spiritually powerless to seek a cleansing of one's past sins.

Ro 7:7-8: "the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

The unregenerate man cannot pull himself up by his own boot straps to seek cleansing,
he is spiritually powerless, he can't even believe that he needs cleansing,
faith has to be given to him (Php 1:9; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
and which, as long as he is unregenerate, he can't even receive, which would please God,
because the unregenerate cannot please God.

This is where you are completely off base Elin. Your error is that you connect "rebellion" with "inability" all within the framework of a "birth nature" and due to this you completely undermine any responsibility on the part of sinners to obey God because you believe they are disabled.

That is a fallacy.

Yes the carnal mind is at emnity with God and cannot please God and it cannot obey God. That is true. Yet the carnal mind is crucified through the process of godly sorrow and repentance where the sinner consciously chooses to forsake their rebellion and yield themselves to God. This is why Jesus first preached "repentance" and then "believe." This is why Jesus preached that WE have to die in order to live. The old man must be crucified once and for all as Paul taught.

James taught it like this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James didn't teach inability, James taught "forsake evil" and "receive the word within." James understood that we cannot "receive Jesus" whilst we "reject Jesus." We simply cannot serve two masters.

Your theology, due to the birth depravity teaching, destroys and redefines repentance to be a mere confession only. Your theology is forced to do this because the premise of Total Depravity is that of "Total Inability" and you view the entire Bible through that framework which explains why you pull the scriptures you do and why you impose an inability meaning on the text.

The Bible does not teach inability, rather it teaches responsibility. God expects us to forsake evil and yield ourselves to righteousness. That is the standard of God. Your theology denies that because it is premised that such a thing is impossible. Thus under your theology one simply "confesses inability" and then WAITS for God to do all the work. It is an utter denial of the teachings of Jesus who taught DO.

The only thing that disables people from being able to obey God is a rebellious heart and the antidote to that is godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation. That is what the Bible teaches. We see Paul wrote about it...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

It will of a sinner is changed through godly sorrow. A vehement desire is produce, a zeal, indignation against sin, a fear of God and sin. It is through godly sorrow that the mind changes and the body of sin is put off permanently. THEN we can yield to God with a true heart, THEN we can be cleansed of our past sins, THEN God can raise us up to newness of life. This is how it works.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

There is no notion of inability in the words of James. Nor in the words of Jeremiah, Isaiah or anyone else in the Bible. There is only the inability which flows out of a refusal to repent, not a lack of an ability to repent but a refusal to repent. Sin hardens the heart towards God and a state can be reached where God gives a sinner up to a reprobate mind and withdraws His influence, the influence upon their conscience.

The Prodigal Son came to his senses in the pig pen. He came to realise that his rebellion was wrong, that it did not work. He changed his mind and due to this change in mind he turned back to his father. It is no different with the repenting soul. We turn back to God after coming to our senses.

Inability = Irresponsibility.

 

[Elin]

Jesus did not pay the penalty for sin

Wrong. . .you simply don't believe the Scriptures which testify that he did,

particularly Is 53:5; 2Co 5:21; 1Pe 2:24.

and Jesus did not establish the law by paying any such penalty.

Wrong. . .the penalty he paid was according to the law.

There could be no removal of sin until its penalty according to the law was paid,
just as in the OT sin was forgiven by paying the penalty of sacrifice.

And in paying its penalty for those who believe in him,
they are saved by grace through faith and not by law-keeping,
thus establishing the law on a right basis,
subordinate to the law of grace.

Your problem is unbelief.

 

[Elin]

The sinful unregenerate nature is spiritually powerless to seek a cleansing of one's past sins.

Ro 7:7-8: "the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

The unregenerate man cannot pull himself up by his own boot straps to seek cleansing,
he is spiritually powerless, he can't even believe that he needs cleansing,
faith has to be given to him (Php 1:9; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
and which, as long as he is unregenerate, he can't even receive, which would please God,
because the unregenerate cannot please God.

This is where you are completely off base Elin. Your error is that you connect "rebellion" with "inability" all within the framework of a "birth nature" and due to this
you completely undermine any responsibility on the part of sinners to obey God because you believe they are disabled.

Oh no, they are absolutely responsible, and absolutely unable.

As would be an invalid who borrowed money on the security of a future inheritance from his father
which then did not materialize.

The invalid is absolutely unable to pay the debt, and the invalid is absolutely responsible to pay the debt.

Responsibility for debt is not based on ability to pay, but on what is justly owed.

Paul is very clear that that the unregenerate are unable to pay their just debt of obedience to God,
that they cannot please him in any way.

Your problem is unbelief of plain text.

 

[Skinski7]

The church system has twisted the grace of God into a license to sin because they teach "sin you will and sin you must."

"Sin you will and sin you must" is generally premised on being "born a sinner." In other words it is natural for human beings to sin and they cannot do otherwise.

Due to this premise the approach to God cannot be connected to a forsaking of sin because human beings are believed to sin automatically apart from anything to do with choice. Thus one approaches God merely confessing they are a sinner.

Stopping sin has nothing to do with salvation in other words. Thus salvation has to be inclusive of ongoing sin. This is why teachings were developed which presented salvation as a cloak for ongoing sin.

Instead of salvation being a manifest reality of walking with God with a clean and pure heart it became a "legal position" where one is "declared righteous" whilst one is still in fact wicked. Thus under this methodology salvation has nothing to do with cleansing anyone, rather it is just cloaking wicked people.

The problem between men and God is their sin. Sin is a rejection of God and thus sin cuts one off from God because one cannot abide with God and reject God. Rebellion and abiding are opposites.

God is the offended party and the sinner is the offender. In order for reconciliation to take place it is the offender who has to change, not the offended party. God is very merciful in allowing sinners to be reconciled through giving them the opportunity to change.

The modern false Gospel has God doing the changing by pretending that the sinner is righteous because somehow the track record of Jesus is credited to the wicked person who confesses they are wicked and trusts in the crediting. Can people realise how stupid that is? That is a most stupid and foolish thing to believe. It is to believe that one can sin and not surely die because God is pretending they are not doing what they actually are doing. That is mocking God.

God will not be mocked. It might appear He is mocked now due to the proliferation of rebellion in the world but that proliferation is only due to God's mercy in giving sinners time to repent. That door will close at some stage and God will not be mocked.

God expects the sinner to forsake their sin. That is the message throughout the Bible. Even Jesus commanded "go and sin no more." Jesus was not joking, He was serious when he said that. The woman caught in adultery and the healed blind man were commanded to stop sinning, only then would it go well with them.

Jesus used very strong language to make a point.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

That is how serious we should take sin. We have to cut it off. The rebellion has to stop. Christian's are not carnal and sold under sin, Christian's are not wretched, Christian's are not the chief of sinners, Christian's do sin every day in thought, word and deed.

In Romans 7 Paul is teaching about the predicament of a man under the law who cannot stop sinning yet is convicted. Paul is making the point that the law cannot bring life, only condemnation once broken. It is the Spirit of life which sets us free from condemnation because it sets us free from sinning and therefore God will forgive us. That is why Paul writes that there is no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirit. Salvation is a manifest state to be walked in, it is not positional.

This is why John would write this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Very few people believe those words of John. It cannot possibly be true to them because they have fallen for a false gospel with all its underlying errors. Thus their minds are immunised against the truth even through the truth is staring them in the face.

When Paul referred to himself as the "chief of sinners" it was in the context of his PAST persecution of the saints of God. Paul was very sorrowful over his previous conduct. He wasn't the chief of sinners in the sense that he was still filthy and wicked and still sinning. That is nonsense. Paul was pure.

Paul exhorted Timothy to...

1Ti 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Why would he say that if Christian's remained wretches who were sold under sin, who could do what they wanted to do? he wouldn't. Paul is speaking in the Historical Present to add emphasis the predicament of the wretch and thus emphasise the need for Jesus Christ.

It is so easy for many people to twist Paul's writings and use them as proof texts to support "sin you will and sin you must" and in doing so deny purity of heart. These people never escape their corruption...

2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

They speak great swelling words of vanity as they remain servants of corruption. They have never escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust as Peter taught...

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Nope. Never that for they never crucified the old man in repentance, they never obeyed the truth from the heart, thus they were never set free from sin but remained slaves and were able to comfort themselves in a delusion, in a false salvation message.

Don't be fooled folks. The Bible means what it says and the truth is right in front of us. All it takes is an honest heart to understand it. God gives grace to the humble so let us humble ourselves before God and He'll guide us into all truth.

 

[royalscot]

The Righteousness of God Through Faith
[SUP]21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it---22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. romans 3
[/SUP]

 

[Elin]

You see always arguing in favour of sin.

Because you always argue in favor of self-righteousness.

 

[Elin]

The church system has twisted the grace of God into a license to sin because they teach "sin you will and sin you must."

And Skinski7 has twisted the gift of righteousness from God (Ro 5:17) into self-righteousness.

 

[Skinski7]

Oh no, they are absolutely responsible, and absolutely unable.

That is nonsense. One cannot be responsible for their sin if all they can do is sin.

A sin robot programmed to sin is not responsible for sinning. That is foolishness. The programmer is responsible.

To believe that God demands of people to do what they cannot do and then condemns them for it paints God as an unjust and vindictive tyrant.

As would be an invalid who borrowed money on the security of a future inheritance from his father
which then did not materialize.

The invalid is absolutely unable to pay the debt, and the invalid is absolutely responsible to pay the debt.

The invalid in your example CHOSE to borrow the money they were not BORN IN DEBT. Of course they are liable for the debt that THEY incurred.

You teach that a sinner is BORN CONDEMNED and BORN EVIL and BORN HATING GOD and BORN IN DEBT incurred through being BORN SINFUL.

You teach that sinner is BORN UNABLE TO YIELD TO GOD.

There is no responsibility in that teaching and that fact is obvious as the sun in the day time. You have to throw reason out the window to deny it and even invent examples which don't logically work.

Paul wrote...

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul also wrote the ANTIDOTE for that state...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

THEREFORE...

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul didn't teach inability. Paul taught that it is through the crucifixion of the flesh that the body of sin is destroyed once and for all and that from henceforth we should no loner SERVE SIN.

Your doctrine denies that. Your doctrine won't teach that. Even though it is right there in the Bible you ignore it completely and twist other verses around as if they cancel it out.

Paul wrote...

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How much clearer could Paul be? We WERE the servants of sin but through obedience from the heart to the doctrine delivered we were set free. Yet you teach that we cannot obey because we are disabled. You teach we cannot be set free from sin because we have a sin nature.

You argue in favour of sin and deny salvation. The salvation you allude to is not salvation at all, it is a deception of the mind where people think they can sin and not surely die. It is satanic to the core.

Paul wrote that we are slaves to whom we obey either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Two roads. Two choices. We either die to sin or we don't.

Your doctrine is "trust in Jesus" because "Jesus effected a judicial transaction" whereby "God credits the righteousness of Jesus to your account" while you "remain a wicked, a wretch, a chief of sinners." It's a lie.

I make posts where I say we have to obey God, where we have to abide in the Spirit of His life, where we have to forsake evil and yield, where we have to diligently add to our faith and you oppose it all. You're not a Christian, you may think you are but you oppose the very teachings of Jesus Christ who taught seek, strive, abide, obey, do, pick up our cross, die that we may live, go and sin no more, dig deep, put the hand to the plow, don't look back, don't be deceived, do the will of God, be holy, be pure, cleanse our hearts, on and on. With you it is a "trust and believe" that denies all that other stuff.

 

[Skinski7]

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

 

[Elin]

And Jesus pointed to God's Law. You should not look at THE Law, but
God's Laws which are fulfilled by the LORD's command to us Christians.

So those in the new covenant are under the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39),
which fulfills the law (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6).

 

[Skinski7]

Because you always argue in favor of self-righteousness.

Obeying God is self righteousness? You twist everything.

Self righteousness is setting up your own standard of righteousness apart from God.

The Bible says...

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Self righteousness has to do with not submitting oneself to the righteousness of God. When we obey God we are submitting ourselves to the righteousness of God, that is not self righteousness.

How is it your mind can twist things to such a degree? Your conscience must be seared to do so.

Paul wrote...

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

The righteousness which is of God by faith, because it is FAITH which establishes the law in the heart (Rom 3:31) through abiding in the Spirit of the life of Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) where the righteousness of the law be fulfilled IN us (Rom 8:4).

To call that self righteousness is insane.

The righteousness of God is manifest THROUGH US because we abide in the Spirit. Thus light of God that shines in us manifests itself outwardly and produces godliness.

That is not self righteousness, that is righteousness dependent upon God whom is the source and author of righteousness. Which is why...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

We are righteous because we DO what is right and we DO what is right because we abide in God. It is very simple.


Your doctrine on the other hand teaches that you DO wicked because your heart is still wicked but because you "trust in Jesus" and His finished work that you are "credited with His righteousness." Your doctrine cloaks sin instead of destroying sin.

 

[Elin]

Oh no, they are absolutely responsible, and absolutely unable.

As would be an invalid who borrowed money on the security of a future inheritance from his father which then did not materialize.

The invalid is absolutely unable to pay the debt,
and under the law the invalid is absolutely responsible to pay the debt.

Responsibility for debt is not based on ability to pay, but on what is justly owed.

Paul is very clear that that the unregenerate are unable to pay their just debt of obedience to God, that
they cannot please him in any way.

Your problem is unbelief of plain text.

That is nonsense. One cannot be responsible for their sin if all they can do is sin.

It is nonsense in Skinski7-ism.

In the word of God it is perfect justice.

The invalid in your example CHOSE to borrow the money they were not BORN IN DEBT.
Of course they are liable for the debt that THEY incurred.

So you agree that under the law
responsibility for debt is not based on one's ability to pay, but on what is justly owed.

And we justly incurred the debt of obedience to God just by being born,
the debt we are unable to pay because of our unregenerate nature (Ro 8:7-8).

Also under the law, we find that as long as the Anthropos sons of future generations,
who successively inherit their father's business, keep up the family private business,
they are personally responsible for all the debts of that business, even though
they did not personally incur those debts.

Under the law, personal responsibility for debt does not require
that the debt be personally incurred.

And we have that principle in Lk 11:48-51, where Jesus holds the present generation of Jewish doctors
responsible for all the blood shed by their forefathers from the beginning of the world; because
in rejecting Christ, the Prophet who was to come (Dt 18:18; Jn 1:21, 6:14, 12:49; Ac 3:22-23),
they were keeping up their forefather's business of rejecting the prophets sent to them by God and
were, therefore, liable for all the debts of their forefathers' business (v.51).

So we have these two principles under the law,

1) responsibility for debt is not based on ability to pay, but on what is justly owed, and

2) personal responsibility for debt does not require that the debt be personally incurred.

So God demanding of sinners what they cannot do (principle #1); i.e., obey him, and

God holding sinners responsible for a debt they did not incur (principle #2); i.e., Adam's sin,
in which they are born,

does not make God unjust.

 

[Elin]

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

See Lk 11:48-51.

You're missing something.

 

[Elin]

Obeying God is self righteousness? You twist everything.

Self righteousness is setting up your own standard of righteousness apart from God.

Nope. . .self-righteousness is becoming righteous under the law by your own obedience.

 

[oldthennew]

In the beginning is the 'Altar-Call'
then
the mass rote recitation of the 'sinner's prayer'

if the 'foundation' is fraudulent then the whole house will fall.

 

[Skinski7]

You are very confused Elin.

The wages of sin is death, death is not the wages of being born.

Adam earned sins wages when he sinned. It is the same for anyone else.

as long as the Anthropos sons of future generations,
who successively inherit their father's business, keep up the family private business,
they are personally responsible for all the debts of that business, even though
they did not personally incur those debts.

Under the law, personal responsibility for debt does not require
that the debt be personally incurred.

Here you attempt to force the doctrine of Federal Headship into what the Bible teaches in regards to the wages of sin. The Bible says...

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You deny that and are trying to imply that sinning is like a business venture which is inherited. Just like your previous example it does not work.

Sin is a moral issue not an inheritance issue. You cannot inherit sin because sin is not a substance whether material or ethereal. Sin is not some kind of "stuff." Parents do not pass sin on to their children. Death is passed on to all through all sinning because the wages of sin is death.

Your doctrine denies the sinner is responsible for their injury because you teach they were born injured. It is not true, we are the proximate cause of our own injury. When we sinned we died just like James taught...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Why would James say that if everyone was born already dead?

James says EVERY MAN is tempted, and therefore EVERY MAN is drawn away of his own lust and enticed, and when lust has conceived in EVERY MAN, it brings forth sin in EVERY MAN, and when it is finished it brings forth death in EVERY MAN. That is why the Bible says that it is the soul that sins that shall die, not the descendents of the soul that sinned.

Paul wrote...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul illustrates the same thing as James. First there was the commandment through which evil desire was able to manifest and thus sin was able to kill via being empowered by the law.

One cannot rebel against God unless they transgress or violate a law. Adam would not have been able to sin if there was no "knowledge of the right way" to violate. The law of conscience and the law of Moses both teach men the right way to go and thus make it possible for men to rebel against it and thus sin. Sin is simply rebellion to God.

A baby cannot be born a sinner because a baby cannot sin.

You throw logical thinking out the window. You throw reason out the window. You then somehow deceive yourself into thinking that "nonsense makes sense" because you cannot comprehend God. Thus you end up the victim of a circular logic into foolishness where you utterly reject truth.

it is very ironic that you allude to Luke 11:48-51 because immediately after those verses Jesus said this...

Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Which is EXACTLY what people like you are doing. Reformed Theology was invented by lawyers through a lawyer mindset and that is why it is premised on a "defence of doctrines" which have replaced the "doctrine of Christ which is the doctrine according to godliness."

Your faith is in a fictional judicial legal exchange which you believe invented within the context of an invented legal framework. This view prevents you and all those who listen to you from entering into the kingdom via the means which Jesus taught. That is why you completely ignore the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires and therefore ignore the plain teachings of Jesus where He taught us to strive, do, obey, sin no more, die to sin, abide, put our hand to the plow, dig deep, be holy, be perfect, count the cost etc.

When I write of that stuff you don't even address it. Instead you throw up verses of Paul which you twist out of context and uphold as if they cancel out the teachings of Jesus. Nothing Paul taught cancels out what Jesus taught, they both agree. The deception is in the twisting of Paul's writings to argue in favour of sin and to deny purity of heart in the saints.

The notion that you sinned in Adam and were thus corrupted in Adam and condemned in Adam is a doctrine which can be traced back to Augustine. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin upheld that doctrine and it has been passed down to us today.

We have only been subjected to the curse as a result of Adam, not a change of human nature. Human nature is something which grows and develops over time and is dependent on the choices we make. If we choose sin then we develop a sin nature, if we choose righteousness then we develop a righteous nature. Choosing sin is to reject God and to choose righteousness is to yield to God.



Here you teach what the Bible does not teach...

...we have these two principles under the law,

1) responsibility for debt is not based on ability to pay, but on what is justly owed, and

2) personal responsibility for debt does not require that the debt be personally incurred.

So God demanding of sinners what they cannot do (principle #1); i.e., obey him, and

God holding sinners responsible for a debt they did not incur (principle #2); i.e., Adam's sin,
in which they are born,

does not make God unjust.

That is nonsense.

Abel obeyed God and God accepted Abel. The Bible says that Abel was righteous.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Why was Abel righteous? Well because he DID the right thing by faith. He wasn't cloaked in wickedness, he wasn't being self righteous, no, his heart was right with God.

God warned Cain...

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Why would God say that to Cain if Cain was disabled and unable to rule over sin?

Jesus said this to the Pharisees...

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

What we DO is a reflection of who we belong to. It is the same reasoning as...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Yet you don't believe that. Your doctrine has you DOING evil and yet professing to be a child of God simply because you "believe in Jesus" and "trust in the cross." How is that any different to the Pharisees religion? It isn't any different in principle.

Jesus said...Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

But, no, your religion doesn't have people being set free from sin, it has people set free IN sin while they keep on sinning. Jesus said this...

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This is why DEEDS PROVE FAITH. Faith is a work which produces deeds. Faith = Faithfulness, FAITH = OBEDIENCE TO GOD. Faith cannot be disconnected from deeds because faith is the active principle of trusting in and yielding to God. That is why faith without works is dead, faith that does not produce anything is a dead faith because real faith is a producer of righteousness.

You are so caught up in the "legal provision" that you actually deny Jesus because you deny His teachings.

Jesus didn't teach what you teach anywhere. Jesus taught the exact opposite.

 

[Skinski7]

In the beginning is the 'Altar-Call'
then
the mass rote recitation of the 'sinner's prayer'

if the 'foundation' is fraudulent then the whole house will fall.

Exactly.

Satan has perverted the mean by which we must initially approach God and in doing so shuts the door to genuine reconciliation.

In the churches people are taught how they were born sinners and have thus fallen short of God's perfect standard. They are then told that Jesus fulfilled God's perfect standard in their place and that He also died and paid the sin debt they owe due to falling short of God's standard. If they then trust in Jesus then God will forgive them. So they are called up to the front and induced to recite a prayer where they confess their sinfulness and claim they trust in Jesus.

It is the lie of package salvation.

There is no crucifixion of the old man and therefore the new man cannot be born. Only an infant can grow into maturity. New wine cannot be put into old wine vessels. Thus we have to be born again via dying first.

It is in dying through the baptism of repentance that we put off the old man whereby the new man can be born. The rebellion ceases once and for all. That is who it is meant to work. That is what the Bible teaches. Repent and Believe.

Jesus said this...

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

It is repentance which produces a good and honest heart. Confession of sinfulness is simply the admission of a deceitful and wicked heart. The heart has to change in order that we bear fruit.

What do the churches generally teach? They teach everyone is still a sinner with a wicked and deceitful heart who sins in thought, word and deed everyday. What is that teaching going to bring? Holiness? No way, it brings more sin. Sin, sin and more sin. Then the people who are so caught up in it defend sin by attacking the preaching of righteousness.

It is so sad.