We establish the Law...but how?

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Skinski7 said:
The problem is the "doctrine of inability" which is necessitated by the "doctrine of Original Sin" or "birth depravity."

If one believes in birth depravity then one must believe that people are disabled from making the virtuous choice due to their internal birth nature.

It is that belief which necessitates one deny "obedience to God" being a condition of salvation because birth depravity teachings makes such a condition impossible to meet. With such a condition being impossible to meet a substitution for obedience is needed and that is where a "forensic imputation of righteousness" comes in.

One error is built upon another error and so on.

Today there exists an entire system of error all established on an underlying error. That underlying error is the notion that a human being has two natures, a sinful nature and a godly nature.

We can trace how this error infiltrated church orthodoxy by going back and reading the writings of Augustine of Hippo who was a theologian from the fourth century. Augustine was steeped in third century neoplatonic philosophy as well as the philosophy of the Manichaeans. When he converted to Catholicism he naturally read some of his presuppositions into the biblical text.

Augustine's major support for his ideas came from Rom 5:12 where in the Latin Vulgate it is rendered "in whom all have sinned" instead of "for that all have sinned." That one error led Augustine to believe that all humanity was actually present in the loins of Adam (due to Heb 7:9-10) when Adam sinned and thus duly sinned with Adam and thus shared in Adam's spiritual corruption and condemnation.

This major theme is the cornerstone of almost everything Augustine wrote. It is out of this fundamental belief that "inability" flows and therefore it forced Augustine to define grace within this context. Grace to Augustine was an offset for inability.

Augustine viewed concupiscence (natural passions of the flesh, especially sexual desire) as sin itself and thus evidence of the "fallen nature" of man. The truth is that concupiscence is not sinful but is instead simply the natural desires of the human body. It is these natural passions which tempt us to sin but that temptation is not sin itself. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are and therefore had the same natural passions as we do.

Martin Luther and John Calvin were both heavily influenced by Augustine's writings and this is evidenced simply by reading their work where they quote and refer to Augustine many times.

The notion that we are "born sinners" is that little piece of leaven which has leavened the whole lump. It lies at the root of most false teaching.
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I do agree with this. We are not born sinners, we are born neutral. Satan, the prince of the power of the air is broadcasting 24/7. Even little babies pick up these broadcasts and begin to manifest self and get. The only cure is conversion and the Holy Spirit to lead us.
 
crossnote said:
If you were born again, you'd have a heart to obey.
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Well, here's hoping that Paul was eventually born again, at the time he wrote this (twenty some years AFTER his conversion) he did not...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
 
john832 said:
Do you? I do not. I sin, I break the Law. Not intentionally, not purposely, not because I disregard it but because I still have the same nature that Paul wrote about in the 7th chapter of Romans. So if I sin, is that the end of all? Am I doomed to damnation?

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Notice verse 2? John says he writes to us that we do not sin (I John 3:4), but if we do, we have a remedy...

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

We go to our High Priest and ask forgiveness and receive mercy and grace.
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Ok, so there is my point. We don't KEEP the law, only Christ has.
 
crossnote said:
Ok, so there is my point. We don't KEEP the law, only Christ has.
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Oh, so if we don't keep the Law what do we do? Break it with alacrity?

By the way, I haven't killed anyone today, I haven't even wished they were dead. Neither have I lied today, I have told the truth. I haven't committed adultery today neither have I stolen anything.

Hmmm, I have been keeping the Law. I may not do it perfectly all day and may need to go to the High Priest for forgiveness, but interestingly enough, I have kept the Law today.
 
Skinski7 said:
Check this out...

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Indeed He does.

Yet look at what Paul writes before that...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Paul speaks of these people "obeying" and compels them to "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling. The word in the Greek for "work out" is...

Work Out - G2716 - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

Now look at how that matches what Jesus taught...

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

...and this...

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Now look at this...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

There is a very clear pattern of how obedience is necessary because obedience makes the work of God effectual to the saving of the soul.

Look at this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It is in DOING that we find a result. Our souls are able to be saved if we meet the condition of DOING.

It is kind of like how we can drive a car from A to B. We could say that map direction to B and the fuel in the tank if God's grace. Faith would be using those things to drive to B. Without faith the destination would not be reached.

This is why the Bible says...

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Without obedience there can be no salvation. God is the author but if we don't follow that which is written then we receive that which is written to no working effect. In other words if we don't "work together with God" then we receive the grace of God in vain (2Cor 6:1).

These words of Paul that I quote next are referring to this working dynamic that produces a result...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What the false teachers have done is rip the working dynamic from this teaching and replaced it with "trust in something that has already happened." That is why many professing Christian's are taught to "trust who they are in Christ" while they still are sinning. When the working dynamic is removed everything is then perverted into a mere position which one trust in. That way "trust and believe" in Jesus can still be preached and yet lead millions to hell.

Satan is a master deceiver. Satan is a master theologian. Satan deceived the whole world, especially professing Christians.
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Faith is three pronged.
We trust in what He has done...what He is doing...what He will do.
The one who leads to hell is the one who leads away from Jesus ...trusting, loving and worshipping Him.
 
crossnote said:
Faith is three pronged.
We trust in what He has done...what He is doing...what He will do.
The one who leads to hell is the one who leads away from Jesus ...trusting, loving and worshipping Him.
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Something I've always noticed about the most faithful Bible teachers is how Jesus Christ is very much at the center of their teachings, not psychobabble, not prosperity gospel, not carnal pursuits and the temporal, not philosophy and rhetorical blather, rather scripture and the Lord Jesus, holiness, the Holy Spirit, love and things eternal, and all these things of Jesus Christ. This is where the Holy Spirit leads us.
 
john832 said:
Oh, so if we don't keep the Law what do we do? Break it with alacrity?

By the way, I haven't killed anyone today, I haven't even wished they were dead. Neither have I lied today, I have told the truth. I haven't committed adultery today neither have I stolen anything.

Hmmm, I have been keeping the Law. I may not do it perfectly all day and may need to go to the High Priest for forgiveness, but interestingly enough, I have kept the Law today.
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You haven't, you haven't, you haven't?
Have you loved God with ALL your heart, mind and soul and strength all the time today?
I am always sinning compared to His perfect righteousness.
 
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crossnote said:
I'm in the same boat. That's why by faith in Christ's perfect righteousness not ours the Law is established.
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Ditto, the same boat here. But, reading all the Hebrew roots stuff here on CC, I have great hopes of impressing God, as I do intend the next jar of pickles I buy will be Kosher.
 
JesusIsAll said:
Ditto, the same boat here. But, reading all the Hebrew roots stuff here on CC, I have great hopes of impressing God, as I do intend the next jar of pickles I buy will be Kosher.
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I know, when it comes to the Law, the goal posts get lowered so that they can 'score some points'.
 
crossnote said:
Psalms 51:3-5 For I am aware of my rebellious acts; I am forever conscious of my sin.
Against you – you above all – I have sinned; I have done what is evil in your sight. So you are just when you confront me; you are right when you condemn me.
Look, I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me.

...and the context is David, not his mother.
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The NIV is a biased translation translated in accordance with the doctrine of Original Sin.

The NIV Committee on Bible Translation were predominantly Calvinists.
NIV Translators and Editors

Thus the NIV is full of interpretive bias in accordance with Calvinistic doctrine.

A good example is with the translation of the Greek word "sarx" which simply means "flesh." Yet the NIV Committee rendered it as "sinful nature" in a few places in order to create proof texts for their doctrine. The translators manipulated the data to fit their preconceived notions.

Psalm 51:5 says this...

(KJV) Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

The context is David speaking of being born and raised in a world full of sin. Of course if one insists on using the NIV they can claim that David is teaching that he was born a sinner, yet why didn't the Jews teach that? Why didn't the early church teach that? Why is it that Original Sin was only accepted as orthodox in the fourth century due to the influence of Augustine? Do people ever consider that?

Now go take a look at all the different translations at the following link and go look up where each one comes from...

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Psalm%2051:5

You'll see that all NIV like translations all have a common source within the framework of a common theological paradigm.

New International Version - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is all very interesting to dig into.

Yet it is not really necessary because God gave us human reason and the words of Jesus. We don't need theological degrees or be verses in the history of literature to understand these things. All we need is an honest heart.

Jesus did not teach inability. Jesus did not teach birth depravity. Jesus taught that sin was rooted in a defiled heart and compelled people to cleanse their hearts. If human beings were born naturally depraved and were disabled from being able to obey God then Jesus would not have taught the things He taught.

Jesus gave us an example to follow and commanded us to follow it. Jesus never implied that people couldn't in the context of human inability. He implied people wouldn't because they would refuse to repent and forsake their evil and thus would remain blind to the truth.

Think about it.

Jesus did teach about heart purity in Matthew 5. He plainly stated that it is the pure in heart who will see God. Jesus said that. Jesus then went on to teach that just because one does not outwardly commit adultery or murder that it does not necessarily mean they are righteous, He taught that if we lust in our heart or hate our brother then we have committed adultery and murder in the heart.

Jesus stated that our righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees in this context. At the end of that chapter He urges people to be perfect as God is perfect and the meaning of that word in the Greek related to "moral perfection." Moral perfection is the result of a pure or clean heart.

In Matthew 5 Jesus spoke of cutting off the offending hand or plucking out the offending eye as an illustration of taking sin seriously by cutting off that which leads us into sin (very similar to Paul's notion of crucifying the flesh).

How is it then that a theology can teach the opposite of what Jesus taught and be the truth? How can that be?

How is it that one can claim to believe in Jesus and claim to be a child of God and yet claim that they are inwardly wicked and cannot obey God? To do that is to deny what Jesus taught.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

It is through faith that our minds eye may be single, whereby our whole body shall be full of light. Light that we can let shine atop a hill for all the world to see as we walk blameless and righteous in a crooked and perverse generation.

It is in deception that one can have a light in them which is actually darkness and that kind of darkness is great indeed. False religion is rooted in light which is actually darkness and we must all be very diligent in seeking God with an honest heart in order to avoid the deceptions of this world.

Seriously take pause and really think about it.
 
crossnote said:
I know, when it comes to the Law, the goal posts get lowered so that they can 'score some points'.
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Something interesting that comes to me is how I've never seen any of this errant legalism going around here taught in any Bible believing, Protestant church, this in my entire life. Just the stupidity some subset of the law will provide merit is so self righteous and Pharisaical, a refutation of clear New Testament Christianity, but something that seems to be concentrated on the web, as if by some sort of concentrated, web trolling effort.
 
MATTHEW 5:19.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

my brothers and sisters,
the grace-law-debate really just gets down to that
'we are saved by grace, rewarded according to our works and the keeping of God's Commandments
is our proof that we love Him.
GB
 
crossnote said:
You haven't, you haven't, you haven't?
Have you loved God with ALL your heart, mind and soul and strength all the time today?
I am always sinning compared to His perfect righteousness.
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God does not require perfect righteousness. God requires perfect faith and God reckons perfect faith as righteousness.

You do not understand God's grace and mercy at all to make statements like that. You have replaced genuine faith with "trust in a substititonal provision." Thus you have rejected the purging of sin and exchanged it for a sin cloak.

The Bible teaches that a righteousness man falls seven times yet gets backs up. It doesn't say the wretched sinner falls seven times.

Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

The righteous WALK according to the counsel of God by a faith that works by love and God looks at the heart by which he declares one righteous. Sure we all make mistakes and misjudgments for which God brings correction that we may grow. Yet those mistakes and misjudgments are not the service of sin done out of a heart rooted in iniquity, no, our hearts ought be clean and this cleanliness will always be manifested by our walk.

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
 
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Skinski7 said:
God does not require perfect righteousness. God requires perfect faith and God reckons perfect faith as righteousness.

You do not understand God's grace and mercy at all to make statements like that. You have replaced genuine faith with "trust in a substititonal provision." Thus you have rejected the purging of sin and exchanged it for a sin cloak.

The Bible teaches that a righteousness man falls seven times yet gets backs up. It doesn't say the wretched sinner falls seven times.

Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

The righteous WALK according to the counsel of God by a faith that works by love and God looks at the heart by which he declares one righteous. Sure we all make mistakes and misjudgments for which God brings correction that we may grow. Yet those mistakes and misjudgments are not the service of sin done out of a heart rooted in iniquity, no, our hearts ought be clean and this cleanliness will always be manifested by our walk.

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
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Very nice insight, thank you for sharing.
 
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