We establish the Law...but how?
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I see much there that testifies to Paul having a heart to obey.
I also see much that testifies to his personal powerlessness to do so.
Question answered. . .problem solved in
Rom7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
He doesn't have to do it in his own power.
He has the power of Christ in which to do it.
I also see much that testifies to his personal powerlessness to do so.
Question answered. . .problem solved in
Rom7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
He doesn't have to do it in his own power.
He has the power of Christ in which to do it.
C
And to quote Ephesians in context:
As for you, you weredead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Some read "seated us with him in the heavenly realms" as our saved position in heaven. However, I have reasons to be concerned when the same "heavenly realms" are used in Ephesians 3:10 and 6:12...
As for you, you weredead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Some read "seated us with him in the heavenly realms" as our saved position in heaven. However, I have reasons to be concerned when the same "heavenly realms" are used in Ephesians 3:10 and 6:12...
I kept getting interrupted when I wrote the above to Skinski...
corrected version...
It was the NET not the NIV.
Anyhows here it is in the KJV same comments apply...we are born in sin.
Psalms 51:3-5 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
corrected version...
It was the NET not the NIV.
Anyhows here it is in the KJV same comments apply...we are born in sin.
Psalms 51:3-5 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
You slip wickedness inbetween the imputation and the walk because you disconnect faith from deeds.
You are under the same error as Martin Luther which is simply a theology founded on the principle of "inability." Under inability one can have faith without deeds because the deeds come later on down the road. That is why you say...
You even underline the word "then" to give emphasis of your point.
You cannot conceive in your mind that the actual faith that God reckons as righteousness is connected to a pure heart. Paul teaches that "faith works by love" and contrasts it to "circumcision and uncircumcision."
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
"Not of works" means not of keeping external rules and regulations. "Not of works" does not mean not of faithful obedience to God.
Your theology has the child molester approaching God while they still molest children where they "trust in Jesus" and THEN sometime down the road God enables them to stop. Thus you have the individual engaged in wickedness whilst they are still justified as they wait on God to do His magic.
Your doctrine completely ignores godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation. Your doctrine reverses the process where you have "salvation by confession" unto "repentance." That is backwards.
Look at what Paul wrote in Romans 4:10-12...
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
The imputation of righteousness is contingent on "also walking in the steps of the faith of Abraham." Why is that? Well because real faith necessitates steps. It is not the steps which save someone, it is the faith which saves but faith without steps is dead faith.
James wrote...
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
You teach "faith alone" when James teaches "not by faith alone." Why does James teach that? He teaches that because he knew that faith is ACTIVE, he knew that faith WORKS, he knew that faith PRODUCES.
There is no such thing as "faith first" and then "works later." No! Faith and works come at the same time because they are connected, there cannot be one without the other.
This is all very clear.
Jesus taught...
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
and
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
There is no in between period of loving Jesus and disobeying Him. Loving God necessitates obedience. That is why the children of God are holy, they cannot be otherwise.
Your doctrine denies that because it is founded upon birth depravity and your doctrine even teaches that the depravity persists after salvation. Thus you have God reckoning inwardly wicked people as righteous. That is a mockery of God.
You make big long posts to refute me yet ignore the MAIN thing I speak about which is HEART PURITY. You ignore all the verses in the Bible on it. You don't address them. You just refer to other verses as if they cancel what Jesus taught out.
You say things like this...
I do not teach any such thing. You not only twist the Bible, you twist what I write too. I teach that God reckons FAITH as righteousness and I connect FAITH to FAITHFULNESS.
The faith you teach is disconnected from faithfulness because you deny the ability to be faithful. Thus you have faith alone with the ability coming later on sometime down the road. That is error.
If there are no works there is no faith. If there is works but no faith then those works are dead works. The issue is the heart and faith is of the heart.
I previously wrote...
To which you replied...
I know this because it is what you have plainly stated. Here is just one example...
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97489-righteousness-mat-5-20-a-3.html#post1651014
You believe the righteousness of someone else is credited to your account. Yet the Bible says that it is FAITH itself that God reckons as righteousness. There is not a single place in the Bible where it teaches that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to anyone. Not only that but it doesn't even make sense. I cannot credit your righteousness to my son anymore than God can credit your righteousness to me. It's nonsense. You ignore both the Bible and logic.
Impute means reckon not transfer. God reckons us righteous if we have genuine faith and passes over our past sin. That is how God justifies the ungodly. He doesn't justify anyone while they continue to rape babies, come on, use your brain.
Oh I understand the doctrine of substitution alright, I have studied it, I have studied where it came from, I have reflected on it for a very long time. It is a false teaching invented by men which serves as a cloak to ongoing iniquity whereby a wicked person is given assurance that God overlooks their wickedness.
Your punishment is not death on a cross. The punishment of the wicked is many stripes in hell and eternal separation from God.
You theology has God punishing the innocent in order to excuse the guilty. Is that justice?
Not only that but the guilty can continue to sin with impunity because the punishment has already been meted out and cannot be made due again. That doctrine is a fancy theological way of saying "you can sin and not surely die."
As proof for this false doctrine you refer to Isa 53:5 and 1Pet 2:24...
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
...neither of which say anything about Jesus absorbing your punishment in your stead. Like I said before the punishment Jesus received is not even the punishment for sinners which is the Lake of Fire.
Jesus died on our behalf as an example. Jesus bore our sins in the sense that he subjected Himself to the sin of this world and was unjustly punished by men. Jesus bore our grief and sorrows, the results of sin, and we esteemed or viewed Him as stricken of God, forsaken by God on that cross.
Penal Substitution is only a 500 year old doctrine. Why didn't the early saints teach it? Why didn't Jesus teach it? They didn't teach it because it isn't true.
Jesus died on our behalf as an example so we can die WITH Him. Ever hear that preached in church? That is what Peter taught...
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
...
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
That is why He suffered on our behalf. Not to pay some sin debt we owed, rather that we should follow His example and die with Him whereby we die to sin that we be quickened by the Spirit.
This is EXACTLY what Paul taught...
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Your view of the cross ignores that. There is no freedom from serving sin in your doctrine. Instead you have "freedom to serve sin" because you think the cross cloaks iniquity.
Right there in the Bible is Paul teaching that our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin be destroyed, that from then on we should no longer serve sin, that if we died we are free from sin. Yet that means nothing to you.
Instead you have the service of sin maybe ceasing later or "then" as you say. Sometime down the road. This notion then forces you to disconnect justification from sanctifcation...
Sanctification simply means to be set apart. If we are justified we are sanctified because we are set apart to serve God. Of course there is growth in being set apart, but not to sin less, rather to grow more in holiness learning the ways of God.
I do show it again and again. I quote entire passages with surround the verses you isolate like in Psalm 14 and 32. I present the whole context of Romans 3:10. I show the context of Rom 4:6 by connecting it to Heb 11, Gal 5, and Rom 4:12 where the KIND of faith that God reckons as righteounsess is described. All the passages and context you omit when you proof text. Just because you ignore me doing this doesn't change a thing.
So what is the bottom line in all this? Simple.
Jesus said this...
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Jesus said this...
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The Bible says this...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
So where exactly does purity of heart fit into your theology Elin? Is it there at all and if so when does it take place?
You are under the same error as Martin Luther which is simply a theology founded on the principle of "inability." Under inability one can have faith without deeds because the deeds come later on down the road. That is why you say...
You even underline the word "then" to give emphasis of your point.
You cannot conceive in your mind that the actual faith that God reckons as righteousness is connected to a pure heart. Paul teaches that "faith works by love" and contrasts it to "circumcision and uncircumcision."
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
"Not of works" means not of keeping external rules and regulations. "Not of works" does not mean not of faithful obedience to God.
Your theology has the child molester approaching God while they still molest children where they "trust in Jesus" and THEN sometime down the road God enables them to stop. Thus you have the individual engaged in wickedness whilst they are still justified as they wait on God to do His magic.
Your doctrine completely ignores godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation. Your doctrine reverses the process where you have "salvation by confession" unto "repentance." That is backwards.
Look at what Paul wrote in Romans 4:10-12...
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
The imputation of righteousness is contingent on "also walking in the steps of the faith of Abraham." Why is that? Well because real faith necessitates steps. It is not the steps which save someone, it is the faith which saves but faith without steps is dead faith.
James wrote...
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
You teach "faith alone" when James teaches "not by faith alone." Why does James teach that? He teaches that because he knew that faith is ACTIVE, he knew that faith WORKS, he knew that faith PRODUCES.
There is no such thing as "faith first" and then "works later." No! Faith and works come at the same time because they are connected, there cannot be one without the other.
This is all very clear.
Jesus taught...
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
and
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
There is no in between period of loving Jesus and disobeying Him. Loving God necessitates obedience. That is why the children of God are holy, they cannot be otherwise.
Your doctrine denies that because it is founded upon birth depravity and your doctrine even teaches that the depravity persists after salvation. Thus you have God reckoning inwardly wicked people as righteous. That is a mockery of God.
You make big long posts to refute me yet ignore the MAIN thing I speak about which is HEART PURITY. You ignore all the verses in the Bible on it. You don't address them. You just refer to other verses as if they cancel what Jesus taught out.
You say things like this...
I do not teach any such thing. You not only twist the Bible, you twist what I write too. I teach that God reckons FAITH as righteousness and I connect FAITH to FAITHFULNESS.
The faith you teach is disconnected from faithfulness because you deny the ability to be faithful. Thus you have faith alone with the ability coming later on sometime down the road. That is error.
If there are no works there is no faith. If there is works but no faith then those works are dead works. The issue is the heart and faith is of the heart.
I previously wrote...
To which you replied...
I know this because it is what you have plainly stated. Here is just one example...
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97489-righteousness-mat-5-20-a-3.html#post1651014
You believe the righteousness of someone else is credited to your account. Yet the Bible says that it is FAITH itself that God reckons as righteousness. There is not a single place in the Bible where it teaches that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to anyone. Not only that but it doesn't even make sense. I cannot credit your righteousness to my son anymore than God can credit your righteousness to me. It's nonsense. You ignore both the Bible and logic.
Impute means reckon not transfer. God reckons us righteous if we have genuine faith and passes over our past sin. That is how God justifies the ungodly. He doesn't justify anyone while they continue to rape babies, come on, use your brain.
Oh I understand the doctrine of substitution alright, I have studied it, I have studied where it came from, I have reflected on it for a very long time. It is a false teaching invented by men which serves as a cloak to ongoing iniquity whereby a wicked person is given assurance that God overlooks their wickedness.
Your punishment is not death on a cross. The punishment of the wicked is many stripes in hell and eternal separation from God.
You theology has God punishing the innocent in order to excuse the guilty. Is that justice?
Not only that but the guilty can continue to sin with impunity because the punishment has already been meted out and cannot be made due again. That doctrine is a fancy theological way of saying "you can sin and not surely die."
As proof for this false doctrine you refer to Isa 53:5 and 1Pet 2:24...
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
...neither of which say anything about Jesus absorbing your punishment in your stead. Like I said before the punishment Jesus received is not even the punishment for sinners which is the Lake of Fire.
Jesus died on our behalf as an example. Jesus bore our sins in the sense that he subjected Himself to the sin of this world and was unjustly punished by men. Jesus bore our grief and sorrows, the results of sin, and we esteemed or viewed Him as stricken of God, forsaken by God on that cross.
Penal Substitution is only a 500 year old doctrine. Why didn't the early saints teach it? Why didn't Jesus teach it? They didn't teach it because it isn't true.
Jesus died on our behalf as an example so we can die WITH Him. Ever hear that preached in church? That is what Peter taught...
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
...
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
That is why He suffered on our behalf. Not to pay some sin debt we owed, rather that we should follow His example and die with Him whereby we die to sin that we be quickened by the Spirit.
This is EXACTLY what Paul taught...
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Your view of the cross ignores that. There is no freedom from serving sin in your doctrine. Instead you have "freedom to serve sin" because you think the cross cloaks iniquity.
Right there in the Bible is Paul teaching that our old man is crucified with Christ, that the body of sin be destroyed, that from then on we should no longer serve sin, that if we died we are free from sin. Yet that means nothing to you.
Instead you have the service of sin maybe ceasing later or "then" as you say. Sometime down the road. This notion then forces you to disconnect justification from sanctifcation...
Sanctification simply means to be set apart. If we are justified we are sanctified because we are set apart to serve God. Of course there is growth in being set apart, but not to sin less, rather to grow more in holiness learning the ways of God.
I do show it again and again. I quote entire passages with surround the verses you isolate like in Psalm 14 and 32. I present the whole context of Romans 3:10. I show the context of Rom 4:6 by connecting it to Heb 11, Gal 5, and Rom 4:12 where the KIND of faith that God reckons as righteounsess is described. All the passages and context you omit when you proof text. Just because you ignore me doing this doesn't change a thing.
So what is the bottom line in all this? Simple.
Jesus said this...
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Jesus said this...
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The Bible says this...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
So where exactly does purity of heart fit into your theology Elin? Is it there at all and if so when does it take place?
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Its true that GOD through Moses gave the law and grace came by JESUS,but under law you had to keep the ten commandments and only perfection is accepted,why then if we could keep them did JESUS have to still save mankind?
So wouldn't you have to say that a HOLY GOD knew we couldn't obey him in the law perfectly so JESUS came as a man/GOD to fulfill the law.
So what i am saying is,if you are still trying to obey the law and GOD will only accept perfection,aren't you still in the fleshly mind,and saying that because GOD said it in the old testament that i should try to keep it?
Galations 5:17-18
king james version(kjv)
[SUP]17.)[/SUP] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18.) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
So wouldn't you have to say that a HOLY GOD knew we couldn't obey him in the law perfectly so JESUS came as a man/GOD to fulfill the law.
So what i am saying is,if you are still trying to obey the law and GOD will only accept perfection,aren't you still in the fleshly mind,and saying that because GOD said it in the old testament that i should try to keep it?
Galations 5:17-18
king james version(kjv)
[SUP]17.)[/SUP] For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18.) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.