We establish the Law...but how?

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C

cfultz3

Guest
Blatant...

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:14-15)

Talking about harmonizing Scripture.
exactly.....Rom 6:14-15 says that we are not under THE law. But, now listen: Rom 3:31 we (Christians) do not void law, we establish (uphold, continue) it (notice that 'the' is added in the KJV?). So if we continue law, then we have law....The Law of Christ, the Law of the Sprint?

Yes, let us harmonize. We are not under THE Law, we are under God's Law, just as Paul said we were.

Thank you for that opportunity to show how one is to harmonize Scripture.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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You take Eph 2:3 and use it as a proof text
A "proof text" is a text which states the principle of its context.

Because it states the principle of the context, it is the best text to use.

that human beings are born objects of wrath.
And all you do is object to the plain word of God in proof texts.
You do not address them, you merely offer your personal human reasoning against them.

Paul in writing Eph 2:3 uses the word "Phusis" which we have translated to "nature" in English.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

If Paul is referring to a "birth nature" and thus "natural inability to do anything but sin" then
why does Paul use the same word in Romans 2?
Because he is referring to the "birth nature" in Ro 2.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
God put in the nature of man a moral code (natural law) and a conscience.
The natural law is the law written in the nature of humans.
Even animals have laws written in their natures, called instincts.

Ro 2:14-15 does not refer to the law given by special revelation of God to Moses,
but to natural law whereby even the pagans who know not God naturally
care for the sick and elderly, naturally honor parents, or naturally condemn adultery.
The natural law also tells man there is a God (Ro 19-20).

But natural law tells man nothing of God's supernatural revelation of his divine law,
nor does it give unregenerate man the power to love and obey divine law.

If people by "nature" do evil how is it by the same "nature" they do good?
They do "good" by the natural law, but they do evil by the divine law,
because they do not glorify God nor give him thanks (Ro 1:21).

I assert that they don't.
I assert that our nature develops over time as a result of whether we obey God or not.
If we choose sin then we develop a sinful nature and if we yield ourselves to God then we develop a godly nature.
And what you assert, the NT denies in Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8; Eph 2:3,
all of which you fail to directly deal with,
preferring your own human wisdom over the divine wisdom (1Co 1:20-22).


Elin you quote this verse too...

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So let me understand this. If Adams sin automatically condemns everyone that must mean that by the righteousness of Jesus the free gift justifies all men also.
I note that, again, you fail to deal directly with what the verse states:
all men are condemned because of the sin of Adam,
preferring instead to deflect to something else. . .your standard intellectually dishonest MO.


Yes, salvation is offered and available to all men.
There are none who sincerely desire and seek it that do not receive it.
And there are many who do neither, and do not receive it.

You say the New Testament is very clear.
Is this clear...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:
by whose stripes ye were healed
.

I'll quote some of the verses before it so as to show the greater context which teaches that
Jesus left us an example that we follow in His footsteps.
An example which you must believe is impossible because everyone is born a sinner and thus totally disabled
.
Only the born again who are enabled follow in Jesus footsteps.

And you still have not directly addressed Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8; Eph 2:3.
 
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kennethcadwell

Guest
Blatant...

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:14-15)

Talking about harmonizing Scripture.
exactly.....Rom 6:14-15 says that we are not under THE law. But, now listen: Rom 3:31 we (Christians) do not void law, we establish (uphold, continue) it (notice that 'the' is added in the KJV?). So if we continue law, then we have law....The Law of Christ, the Law of the Sprint?

Yes, let us harmonize. We are not under THE Law, we are under God's Law, just as Paul said we were.

Thank you for that opportunity to show how one is to harmonize Scripture.
We are not under law ( mosaic written laws in ordinance, law of sin and death ), We establish the law of the moral values of God that was taught in the law and our Lord by walking in love, forgiveness, and a helping nature.

For if you walk in love, sin will have no dominion over you because there will be no desire to sin, and if a temptation to sin arises we can through the help of the Holy Spirit resist that temptation and not let that sin become full blown in our life again.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Heart to obey is one thing...keeping the law is another...namely imperfect obedience...not what the law is established on.
This all is getting repetitive and wearisome.
Yes, never dealing directly with the Scriptures presented

(Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8; Eph 2:3),

but just trotting out over and over the same old tired deflective run-around.
 
P

psychomom

Guest
from Robert Ferrar Capon's book, "Between Noon and Three: Romance, Law & the Outrage of Grace"

“Lord, please restore to us the comfort of merit and demerit. Show us that there is at least something we can do. Tell us that at the end of the day there will at least be one redeeming card of our very own. Lord, if it is not too much to ask, send us to bed with a few shreds of self-respect upon which we can congratulate ourselves. But whatever you do, do not preach grace. Give us something to do, anything; but spare us the indignity of this indiscriminate acceptance.”
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
We are not under law ( mosaic written laws in ordinance, law of sin and death ), We establish the law of the moral values of God that was taught in the law and our Lord by walking in love, forgiveness, and a helping nature.

For if you walk in love, sin will have no dominion over you because there will be no desire to sin, and if a temptation to sin arises we can through the help of the Holy Spirit resist that temptation and not let that sin become full blown in our life again.
I agree, we are under the Laws of Love. The Spirit indeed convicts by those Laws. We are convicted when we start to walk contrary to those laws. In the end, we Christians are under Law.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
from Robert Ferrar Capon's book, "Between Noon and Three: Romance, Law & the Outrage of Grace"

“Lord, please restore to us the comfort of merit and demerit. Show us that there is at least something we can do. Tell us that at the end of the day there will at least be one redeeming card of our very own. Lord, if it is not too much to ask, send us to bed with a few shreds of self-respect upon which we can congratulate ourselves. But whatever you do, do not preach grace. Give us something to do, anything; but spare us the indignity of this indiscriminate acceptance.”
When He comes He will have His rewards with Him. Each human will give an account of himself.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Here is the definition of Nature from Strong's Concordance.

G5449
φύσις
phusis
foo'-sis
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).


Now here is where it really gets interesting. Strong's is but a summary whilst Thayer's addresses definitions in much more depth.

The wolves in the pulpits and seminaries will never show people this
.
Speaking of picking definitions that suit one's theology:

those in the pulpits and seminaries of orthodox Christianity prefer more reputable reference sources than Thayers,
which sources agree with Strongs: "natural production (lineal descent)" and "native disposition, constitution, or usage."

So since Thayers is in disagreement with Strongs, Youngs, and other sources,
let's take Eph 2:3 off the table.

You still have Ro 5:18 to deal with: all men are condemned because of the sin of Adam.


It is amazing what one can find when one begins to check things out.
Indeed it is, like the meaning of
natural law in Ro 2:14-15, and

all mankind is condemned from birth because of the sin of Adam in Ro 5:18.
 
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psychomom

Guest
When He comes He will have His rewards with Him. Each human will give an account of himself.
yes...but Christians already have the Righteousness of Christ on their account. :)

the account we give will either be thank God in Christ for His Righteousness,
or, look, God! we established our own righteousness by our works at the Law.
:(
 
Jan 19, 2013
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People are easily deceived when they take something for granted without investigating. Once a person accepts a deception as true then they become emotionally tied to that deception, especially as they invest more and more time into it. It is then they they will, often without thinking, manipulate things in order to deal with cognitive dissonance which it arises.
Wow. . .what an accurate description of yourself!

"Physician, heal thyself."
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
yes...but Christians already have the Righteousness of Christ on their account. :)

the account we give will either be thank God in Christ for His Righteousness,
or, look, God! we established our own righteousness by our works at the Law.
:(
Are we free to walk as we please?
 
Jan 19, 2013
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I put the following video together a couple of years ago. The audio is done by another but I was able to duplicate his research and annotate most of what he says by putting pictures of the references he uses to his words.

The early church preached a completely different Gospel message
to that which is generally preached today and this video reveals why.
Forever going to sources outside the Scriptures for your authority.

It matters now what anyone preached, but the NT writers.

God has preserved their writings for us to this day that we may examine them for ourselves.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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And you do not think we do not also. How about harmonizing Scripture instead of choosing what your ear itch for.
All Scripture is in harmony for me, including the ones you think are not.

It is you, et al, that set them against themselves.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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john832 said:
Paul did! And notice the subject here is not singular...

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
She knows that. But at that time it did not suit her purpose.
Straw man.

Previously addressed.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
All Scripture is in harmony for me, including the ones you think are not.

It is you, et al, that set them against themselves.
Except the ones you think are a doctrine from hell....your own words.....

It says, 'Come and follow Me'. That is a command, not a suggestion that He will do all for you. Even He has a yoke. The Sprint is not called Doer, but Helper.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Straw man.

Previously addressed.
Since you say it is a straw man, then I guess it all over. Don't you get tired of saying that? Like it is a magic thing which will prove something?
 
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psychomom

Guest
Are we free to walk as we please?
no...and yes.
no since we are to obey, and yes, since it is God working in us through grace that makes us want to obey.

i mean, think about it...of you have offended someone (sinned against them), and that person
freely and fully pardons you...not ever holding it against you, bringing it up again, etc...
if that person grants you forgiveness, not requiring you to perform some great feat to prove you're sorry...
if that person just loves you...
would not that engender loyalty in your heart toward that person?
i, for one, would feel so amazingly blessed i would never want to offend that person again!

if it works that way horizontally with one another, why in the world would we think
it works differently with God?
:confused:
the more grace and love we receive from God, the more we love God and want to pursue Him, right?


walking in obedience has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
we need to get it out of our heads that sanctification precedes justification.
we need to reject the idea that if we live a certain way, and are successful in it,
we will be declared righteous at the end.

we have come to view grace as divine assistance for moral transformation
rather than a totally one sided rescue. :(

i don't mean to say we are not to live 'morally', but it's a mistake to preach
morality as the way to be saved.
ultimately, it's not our performance for God,
it's Jesus' performance for us. ♥
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Elin said:
My point exactly.

So I ask you the same.

If there is no difference,
why do you need more than Christ's new covenant command (Mt 22:37-39)?
Because this Christ you speak, is the same LORD who spoke His will into words which were written down for us to walk His righteous path.

It says LOVE FULFILLS the Law (God's Law)....If Love fulfills the Law, then it is the Law which we are fulfilling when we do acts of Love. . .

So, the difference is: who defines what love is? Yes, God. You know as well as I, that we all have a different, and sometimes pervasive, idea what love is (use your imagination).
'Round and 'round the same ole' bush, over and over and over. . .ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

You keep forgetting (or just not getting) the truth about the Holy Spirit who writes it in our minds
and on our hearts; i.e., gives true believers to know what is loving and what is not.

It's like pulling hens' teeth. . .
 
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Kerry

Guest
Usually straw men have the best facts.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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cfultz3 said:
And God's Law? By doing that, we are holier than thou? You are so against law, that you fail to see that
we are still under law as Christians.
Blatant...

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:14-15)

Talking about harmonizing Scripture.
Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. . .