The Sin of Pacifism

[Jason0047]

Are not these three verses quoted in post 905 New Testament?

1 Corinthains 15:34, 1 Timothy 1:9, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3

None of these verses actually say anything about how you must use lethal force in self defense. No verse in the New Testament actually says that or even implies such a thing. The Law of Moses has vanished away. The Law of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus Christ and it brought in the Law of Christ under the New Testament. We are under a New Covenant and we are no longer under the Old Covenant. Read Hebrews 8-9. It explains how there are two covenants (i.e. two testaments); For a testament is not in effect until there is the death of the testator. In other words, the New Testament (Covenant) began with Jesus Christ' death. This is why the Temple veil was torn. The old priesthood under the Law was no longer. We can't go back and sacrifice animals as a part of the Law. For Jesus said that the wine at the last supper represented his blood that was shed for the remission of sins for the New Testament. For you can't put new wine (New Testament teachings) into old wine skins (Old Testament teachings). For it's why the pharisees could not accept Jesus' teachings because they were caught in the Old way of doing things (In addition to them also breaking the Law of Moses, too).

 

[elf3]

What is the purpose of the Old Testament if we are only to follow the rules set out in the New Testament? Well, every single page in the Old Testament speaks of Jesus Christ. For there are hundreds of fulfilled Messianic prophecies, Messianic end times prophecies, typifications of Christ, and hidden messages all over the place. In fact, Genesis chapter one is one of my favorite chapters in the Bible. So one day, I asked the Lord to show me something that related to Him and I discovered the life of Christ or the gospel in the 7 days of Genesis. If your interested, you can check that out here....

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=90762

Also, all of the different types of offerings in the Old Testament are a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of our Lord, too. The grain offerings are symbolic of his body (bread) and the drink offerings are symbolic of his blood (wine) and the animal sacrifices, which consist of meat and blood is symbolic of both Christ's body and blood.

Oh, and to check out some interesting typifications of Christ in the Old Testament, please see this thread here...

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=90860

Anyways, besides finding Christ within the Old Testament, what other purpose does the Old Covenant serve? Well, the Old Covenant confirms New Covenant doctrines and helps gives us a glimpse where believers are headed in the future with their life in Christ.

What kind of New Covenant doctrines or teachings can we find in the Old Covenant? Well, I believe that God's plan of salvation has not changed. Believers thru out all points in time are justified by faith in the Messiah. The Old Covenant saint was circumcised in heart and the New Covenant saint is born again spiritually. Circumcision was an outward sign of a believer's changed heart in the Old, just as baptism is an outward sign or public declaration of a believer's new heart in the New. For Jesus was surprised that Nicodemus did not know about being born again. For all believers thru out all of time are reborn spiritually and justified by faith in the Messiah; And all believers thru out time had abided in the Son. For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12).

Wait you didn't take me serious did you? If you took me serious then.....

 

[Calminian]

A person can live by eating pizza. Whether that person eats pizza once, or for one week, or a year, they live by eating that pizza. If you live by the sword, that means you trust in it to stay alive. You are living by the sword. ....

Which is exactly what you're doing, Jason, when you call the police. You in essence are calling men with weapons in order to protect you and keep you alive. In your own words you are living by the sword. How are you different then the guy using his own weapon?

 

[just-me]

I respect those in the Armed Forces. My father was a Marine, my brother a Naval Officer, my uncle a 'Nam vet, my grandfather a Normandy lander, my great uncle a POW. These men walked with humility, my grandfather going to great lengths to never talk about himself. The only time my grandfather ever spoke openly about his opinion of war was when my father entered the Marine Corps. My grandfather said, "There is a war going on in vietnam and you want to join the Marines. I'm proud you want to serve, but your a fool for wanting to go to war." My father has never forgotten those words, because when my brother entered the Navy to go overseas and fight in the Middle East, my father said the very same words. I don't personally know what war is, but if the two most humble and kind men I've ever known keep calling men fools for wanting to go to war, I know that war is foolish. AND when Christ calls me to sacrifice, suffer, and love in His name, then I will do that also. Stop attacking men who wish to serve Christ in the most severe ways.

I respect your military family. I said the same thing to my son and grandson. Where I am coming from is the pacifism of the populace actually being taught by numerous Christian denominations from border to border. Many reject that the reason for this pacifism stems from the teaching that the law of God is not for Christians and if enforced is works minus faith. Most don't even know that much of the law has everything to do with righteous self governing principles.

Is not the United States a country that was founded on self governing principles? Our forefathers knew that if we forsook even part of the Bible as a nation, that the constitution would fail. Because of this falsehood of doctrinal teaching, we haven't any idea how to conduct ourselves as a nation. Professing Christians go to voting booths. How can righteous concepts be on their minds when they have no idea how God can preserve an entire country saying the law was (in the past) strictly for Israel and the Jews and not for us. Good grief! I'm not talking just about the ten commandments as we know them. Let's awake unto righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Just because the works of the law cannot save anyone doesn't mean we make them void, having no knowledge of how to present them to the lawless for the sake of peace and love.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

This describes the pacifism (falling away) of the church that allows this to happen to a country that was built on the blessings of God to begin with.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

None of these verses actually say anything about how you must use lethal force in self defense. No verse in the New Testament actually says that or even implies such a thing. The Law of Moses has vanished away. The Law of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus Christ and it brought in the Law of Christ under the New Testament. We are under a New Covenant and we are no longer under the Old Covenant. Read Hebrews 8-9. It explains how there are two covenants (i.e. two testaments); For a testament is not in effect until there is the death of the testator. In other words, the New Testament (Covenant) began with Jesus Christ' death. This is why the Temple veil was torn. The old priesthood under the Law was no longer. We can't go back and sacrifice animals as a part of the Law. For Jesus said that the wine at the last supper represented his blood that was shed for the remission of sins for the New Testament. For you can't put new wine (New Testament teachings) into old wine skins (Old Testament teachings). For it's why the pharisees could not accept Jesus' teachings because they were caught in the Old way of doing things (In addition to them also breaking the Law of Moses, too).

I was addressing ThomistColin.

 

[Jason0047]

Wait you didn't take me serious did you? If you took me serious then.....

My answer was serious and I believe it answers your question (Even if you choose to reject that answer).

 

[Jason0047]

My answer was serious and I believe it answers your question (Even if you choose to reject that answer).

In other words, my answer says this,

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Note: The OT saint only had Scripture from the Old Testament at the time Christ said this.

 

[Jason0047]

I was addressing ThomistColin.

Doesn't mean I can't reply.

 

[elf3]

My answer was serious and I believe it answers your question (Even if you choose to reject that answer).

Um I didn't have that question. It was a sarcastic question. Kinda funny you thought it was a serious question I had.

 

[just-me]

Originally Posted by just-me

I was addressing ThomistColin.

Doesn't mean I can't reply.

You're right. In my post I was addressing the op and the sin of the current church philosophy of pacifism. I had no intention of bringing up capital punishment, yet I think it would deter murder if all the laws in this country would put murderers to death according to the law God has given to us. I don't feel it right that God would want us to support those that commit these kinds of sins by paying taxes. Legislation that alleviates capital punishment is like telling a murderer (after they have killed your neighbor) that you'll take care of them, and then saying to the surviving family members that they will have to pay for the person that killed the member of their family, and then if they refuse to pay their taxes they will be arrested. That's my point of the devastation of pacifism.

I'll quote again what I was addressing about how this pacifist corruption spreads.

Where I am coming from is the pacifism of the populace is actually being taught by numerous Christian denominations from border to border. Many reject that the reason for this pacifism stems from the teaching that the law of God is not for Christians and if enforced is somehow turned into a works minus faith doctrine. Most don't even know that much of the law has everything to do with righteous self governing principles.

Is not the United States a country that was founded on self governing principles? Our forefathers knew that if we forsook even part of the Bible as a nation, that the constitution would fail. Because of this falsehood of doctrinal teaching, we haven't any idea how to conduct ourselves as a nation. Professing Christians go to voting booths. How can righteous concepts be on their minds when they have no idea how God can preserve an entire country saying the law was (in the past) strictly for Israel and the Jews and not for us. Good grief! I'm not talking just about the ten commandments as we know them. Let's awake unto righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Just because the works of the law cannot save anyone doesn't mean we make them void, having no knowledge of how to present them to the lawless for the sake of peace and love.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

This describes the pacifism (falling away) of the church that allows this to happen to a country that was built on the blessings of God to begin with.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition; END QUOTE

 

[Calminian]

A person can live by eating pizza. Whether that person eats pizza once, or for one week, or a year, they live by eating that pizza. If you live by the sword, that means you trust in it to stay alive. You are living by the sword. But he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. This is not a blessing given to someone. Living and dying by the sword is not a good thing. If it was, then why was Jesus so upset with Him?

Which is exactly what you're doing, Jason, when you call the police. You in essence are calling men with weapons in order to protect you and keep you alive. In your own words you are living by the sword. How are you different then the guy using his own weapon?

I have to say, I've never seen a poster run from a question quite like Jason. I've been on him for days about this.

 

[Jason0047]

Which is exactly what you're doing, Jason, when you call the police. You in essence are calling men with weapons in order to protect you and keep you alive. In your own words you are living by the sword. How are you different then the guy using his own weapon?

Do you believe God used the King of Assyria in Isaiah 10 to punish Israel?

If you do, then this is essentially what Romans 13 is partly saying, too. This is important to understand because that means the military and the police (who are primarily unbelievers) are God's ministers of justice just as angels can be God's ministers of justice. Police are not hitmen anymore than angels are. They both carry out the justice of God. So if I call the police, I am trusting in God to execute judgment thru them. Just as I would trust in God to execute judgment if I call the Lord for his angels to protect me and or others. For angels can use violence to destroy their enemy just as police can. For the angels that rescued Lot had the power to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah with fire. In fact, they did destroy it.

So when I call upon God's ministers I trust God to carry out justice fair and properly. For both the police and angels can protect me by peaceful means (But the ultimate call of what happens is up to God).

 

[Jason0047]

This nothing new. God had duties that were different for priests than for others who were not priests.

 

[Jason0047]

Originally Posted by just-me

I was addressing ThomistColin.



You're right. In my post I was addressing the op and the sin of the current church philosophy of pacifism. I had no intention of bringing up capital punishment, yet I think it would deter murder if all the laws in this country would put murderers to death according to the law God has given to us. I don't feel it right that God would want us to support those that commit these kinds of sins by paying taxes. Legislation that alleviates capital punishment is like telling a murderer (after they have killed your neighbor) that you'll take care of them, and then saying to the surviving family members that they will have to pay for the person that killed the member of their family, and then if they refuse to pay their taxes they will be arrested. That's my point of the devastation of pacifism.

I'll quote again what I was addressing about how this pacifist corruption spreads.

Where I am coming from is the pacifism of the populace is actually being taught by numerous Christian denominations from border to border. Many reject that the reason for this pacifism stems from the teaching that the law of God is not for Christians and if enforced is somehow turned into a works minus faith doctrine. Most don't even know that much of the law has everything to do with righteous self governing principles.

Is not the United States a country that was founded on self governing principles? Our forefathers knew that if we forsook even part of the Bible as a nation, that the constitution would fail. Because of this falsehood of doctrinal teaching, we haven't any idea how to conduct ourselves as a nation. Professing Christians go to voting booths. How can righteous concepts be on their minds when they have no idea how God can preserve an entire country saying the law was (in the past) strictly for Israel and the Jews and not for us. Good grief! I'm not talking just about the ten commandments as we know them. Let's awake unto righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Just because the works of the law cannot save anyone doesn't mean we make them void, having no knowledge of how to present them to the lawless for the sake of peace and love.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

This describes the pacifism (falling away) of the church that allows this to happen to a country that was built on the blessings of God to begin with.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition; END QUOTE

Those passages do not say that the Law of Moses is still binding for us to obey. Read Galatians 3. And again, nor do they teach lethal force in self defense, either.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have to say, I've never seen a poster run from a question quite like Jason. I've been on him for days about this.

You wont get a straight answer for sure.....and if you do get an answer it will be filled with his own theology!

 

[Jason0047]

You wont get a straight answer for sure.....and if you do get an answer it will be filled with his own theology!

What answers are we talking about? I am more than willing to clarify them.

 

[blue_ladybug]

​Don't y'all ever get tired of bangin' your collective heads on the brick wall that is this non-stop circular, going-nowhere thread?!!! LOL!! Just sayin'..... Pretty soon y'all gonna get a concussion!!

 

[Jason0047]

​Don't y'all ever get tired of bangin' your collective heads on the brick wall that is this non-stop circular, going-nowhere thread?!!! LOL!! Just sayin'..... Pretty soon y'all gonna get a concussion!!

No banging of heads here. Just discussing the Word of God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What Jesus rebuked Peter for is evident. He did this because it was His time to go. However what Jesus Christ issued as a doctrinal statement after rebuking Peter is also evident. Do not take the sword....He tells Peter. Why? Because ALL who take the sword will perish with the sword. There are no exceptions. Not just when you take the sword out of anger, otherwise Christ would have said that but He didn't. That qualifies as adding to and taking away from the word of God, which is a grievous thing. Peter was rebuked and Christ felt the need to issue this doctrinal statement that ALL who take the sword will perish with the sword.

Please take a minute and think about this. Why would the word of God issue such a generic statement as ALL who take the sword will perish with the sword. What does it mean to take the sword? It doesn't necessarily mean to live by it. And if it did, that would still disqualify policemen and military members from the kingdom of God. If it means just being randomly violent, then Christ's words are really confusing because if I read this verse on a desert island away from the American culture, I never would have gathered that he simply meant don't do random, evil violence. Especially since that doesn't appear to be what Peter was doing.

A person can live by eating pizza. Whether that person eats pizza once, or for one week, or a year, they live by eating that pizza. If you live by the sword, that means you trust in it to stay alive. You are living by the sword. But he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. This is not a blessing given to someone. Living and dying by the sword is not a good thing. If it was, then why was Jesus so upset with Him?

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

 

[elf3]

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

Hey Ken out where you live what do you hunt? If you hunt deer do you process it yourself?

 

[elf3]

This is false, for it would then say like you mentioned that if you become a policeman or are in the military you will not go to heaven. That is not true that they will not be there.

And Jason if you only eat pizza once in a while, you do not live by it.
Living by something means that it is your main focus on how you live your life.
If you live by pizza, that is all you ever want to eat, and is what you will eat the most. Not just once in awhile.

You can believe in owning guns, but that does not mean you live by them for violence/sin.
I use them for hunting, so in using weapons of violence for hunting is not wrong. Therefore I am not living by the violence/sin that can come with how that weapon can be used, I use it to feed my family.

Now if you use a gun to only hurt others, then you are living by the violent/sinful side of that weapon.
Once again it comes back to how it is used.

Sorry do you prefer ken or kenneth?