We establish the Law...but how?

[crossnote]

That is because this conversation is about Law, you made the thread yourself.

No, I am not afraid to say "we are under Grace". But, that does not give us a license to sin.

If you wish to talk about Grace, then, by all means, open a thread and I will reply.

Are you a lawyer? Grace and law are inseparable opposites like north pole/ south pole.

John 1:16-17 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[Skinski7]

Thanks for bringing up this last part in Rom 7, it dovetails nicely with 1Cor 15..

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Co 15:54-57)

Notice the struggle goes on until..."when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,"

What struggle if one believes to obey the Lord is one thing and to keep the law is another?
But Paul wrote: "I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."
He also wrote: "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."
Not until one lets the Holy Spirit in charge would he be able to submit to God's law.

They are Gnostics posing as Christians Chubbena. Their religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ save in name only. They also hate being exposed as you can see in this thread.

Look at how Crossnote tied 1Cor 15:54-57 to the wretch of Romans 7 to imply that Christian's remain wretches until their death still enslaved to sin. That is a lie. They ignore Romans 6 completely where Paul specifically speaks of being set free from sin and not serving sin. They won't even touch those verses.

These people will always respond within their limited framework with their limited proof texts. The best way to expose them is from without their framework, going for the root. If that is not done they try and tie you up in little squibbles about select scriptures and when you address one they go to the next one and ignore the first.

These have to be wicked people to be doing this and I think we have to realise this fact. Only a wicked person would totally ignore the plain words of Jesus and imply we don't have to do anything when Jesus said that we do.

Notice that Crossnote in quoting 1Cor 15:54-57 cut short of quoting this passage...

1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Paul right there connects our labour with God's work. Again it is the synergism spoken of in 2Cor 6:1...

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

That synergism is the dynamic that makes us the righteousness of God in Him.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It's the same reason they never connect Eph 2:8 to Eph 2:5 where Paul describes grace as the quickening.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

These people absolutely abhor the notion of cooperating with God even though the Bible teaches it simply because it contradicts there foundation of Total Depravity and thus Inability. In their minds they perceive that God's sovereignty relates to everything that happens within the context of determinism, thus any choice alluded to on the part of human beings is a denial of the sovereignty of God in their minds.

For a great example of this at work check out the following debate between Jesse Morrell and Sye Ten Burggencate.

Jesse Morrell Debates Sye Ten Bruggencate on Calvinism, Sovereignty, Abortion, Open Theism | Biblical Truth Resources

While I am opposed to Jesse's promotion of the false teacher Charles Finney (a man who never gave up some of the fundamentals of Reformed Theology and also taught substitution) because I oppose the Moral Government view of the atonement, Jesse nonetheless is a very sound thinker in regards to the Reformed view of the Sovereignty of God. For he makes this point...

John Calvin said, “The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should.” John Calvin said, “Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” John Calvin said, “Whatever things are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very things are the right and just works of God.” Now, lets apply these quotes to abortion. John Calvin said, “Abortion happens because the Lord deemed it meet that they should.” John Calvin said, “Abortionists are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that no abortion happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” John Calvin said, “Whatever abortions are done wrongly and unjustly by man, these very abortions are the right and just works of God.” That is the Calvinist doctrine of Sovereignty.

Jesse then simplifies it like this...

Jesse Morrell: Here is a logical syllogism for you: Major Premise: Abortion is the plan of God Minor Premise: Calvinists oppose and mourn abortion Corollary: Therefore, Calvinists oppose and mourn the plan of God

He then contrasts it to this...

Jer_19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Jer_32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Now if you look at the rest of the debate none of the Calvinists have an answer. They do what Elin does and misdirect with side issues and simply assert "you do not understand."

These people can be confounded by going to the root of their theology and demonstrating now only that it contradicts the Bible, but that it also contradicts sound logic. When the root is exposed everything else just collapses because everything else is established upon that root.

These people always defend sin. Always. That is why they refuse to discuss heart purity. It's the elephant in the room.

 

[Skinski7]

Are you a lawyer? Grace and law are inseparable opposites like north pole/ south pole.

John 1:16-17 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
...
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I thought I would add some verses for context because you snip isolated verses and present them out of context to argue in favour of a lie.

 

[crossnote]

They are Gnostics posing as Christians Chubbena. Their religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ save in name only. They also hate being exposed as you can see in this thread.

Look at how Crossnote tied 1Cor 15:54-57 to the wretch of Romans 7 to imply that Christian's remain wretches until their death still enslaved to sin. That is a lie. They ignore Romans 6 completely where Paul specifically speaks of being set free from sin and not serving sin. They won't even touch those verses.

These people will always respond within their limited framework with their limited proof texts. The best way to expose them is from without their framework, going for the root. If that is not done they try and tie you up in little squibbles about select scriptures and when you address one they go to the next one and ignore the first.

These have to be wicked people to be doing this and I think we have to realise this fact. Only a wicked person would totally ignore the plain words of Jesus and imply we don't have to do anything when Jesus said that we do.

Notice that Crossnote in quoting 1Cor 15:54-57 cut short of quoting this passage...

1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Paul right there connects our labour with God's work. Again it is the synergism spoken of in 2Cor 6:1...

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

That synergism is the dynamic that makes us the righteousness of God in Him.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It's the same reason they never connect Eph 2:8 to Eph 2:5 where Paul describes grace as the quickening.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

These people absolutely abhor the notion of cooperating with God even though the Bible teaches it simply because it contradicts there foundation of Total Depravity and thus Inability. In their minds they perceive that God's sovereignty relates to everything that happens within the context of determinism, thus any choice alluded to on the part of human beings is a denial of the sovereignty of God in their minds.

For a great example of this at work check out the following debate between Jesse Morrell and Sye Ten Burggencate.

Jesse Morrell Debates Sye Ten Bruggencate on Calvinism, Sovereignty, Abortion, Open Theism | Biblical Truth Resources

While I am opposed to Jesse's promotion of the false teacher Charles Finney (a man who never gave up some of the fundamentals of Reformed Theology and also taught substitution) because I oppose the Moral Government view of the atonement, Jesse nonetheless is a very sound thinker in regards to the Reformed view of the Sovereignty of God. For he makes this point...



Jesse then simplifies it like this...



He then contrasts it to this...



Now if you look at the rest of the debate none of the Calvinists have an answer. They do what Elin does and misdirect with side issues and simply assert "you do not understand."

These people can be confounded by going to the root of their theology and demonstrating now only that it contradicts the Bible, but that it also contradicts sound logic. When the root is exposed everything else just collapses because everything else is established upon that root.

These people always defend sin. Always. That is why they refuse to discuss heart purity. It's the elephant in the room.

To point out one false accusation amongst many (your posts are too long for my time.)
I never implied that Rom 7 has us as wretches enslaved to sin until we die...that is bearing false witness.
I say that there is a continual struggle between our new nature and old...

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[Skinski7]

The very bottom line is that by denying that we have to cooperate with God by submitting faithfully to Him they exclude the dynamic of saved by grace THROUGH faith.

Their doctrine rips the "working principle" from the Gospel.

They have exchanged the "working principle" for an "abstract provision."

Thus instead of trusting in God to give them direction and power as they build their house on the rock they simply do nothing and trust that God has already done everything.

Then anyone who comes along and teaches that you do have to do something they will attack them and rip all the verses Paul uses which teach that salvation is not by the works of the law (ie. circumcision/rites/rituals) and connect that law to the working dynamic (ie. grace THROUGH faith) and throw it out the window calling it heresy.

It is always the same mode of operation with these people.

1. Teach inability (due to birth depravity teaching).
2. Connect faithfulness to Mosaic Law keeping.
3. Imply that "Not of Law" = "Not of Faithfulness" (because faithfulness is impossible due to inability)
4. Redefine "FAITH" = "Passive Trust"
5. All premised on substitution (ie. the obedient track record of Jesus is the substitute for their obedience [ie. it is credited to them] and their sin is credited to Jesus who absorbed the wrath of God making it not abide on them anymore.)
6. The result is you can sin and not surely die.

So you ask them about if there is any sin that must be stopped before forgiveness is granted and they have to answer no. You can be raping babies and murdering people according to their theology and be justified and on your way to heaven.

 

[Skinski7]

To point out one false accusation amongst many (your posts are too long for my time.)
I never implied that Rom 7 has us as wretches enslaved to sin until we die...that is bearing false witness.
I say that there is a continual struggle between our new nature and old...

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Is there any sin that must be stopped before God will forgive you?

 

[Skinski7]

To point out one false accusation amongst many (your posts are too long for my time.)
I never implied that Rom 7 has us as wretches enslaved to sin until we die...that is bearing false witness.
I say that there is a continual struggle between our new nature and old...

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The flesh must be crucified. Temptation is not an "old nature." There is no struggle between the "new nature" and an "old nature." There is ongoing temptation which we are to bear as God always gives a way of escape.

It is the Gnostics who connected "temptation" with a "nature" and thus invented the "sin nature from birth" doctrine.

There is no two natures. There is one nature and it can either be in bondage to sin or be in bondage to righteousness.

The wretch is Romans 7 is not a Christian and to imply the wretch is a Christian is to teach that a Christian is carnal and sold under sin. Being carnal and sold under sin means one is in bondage to sin.

You do imply Christian's are wretches enslaved to sin until we die because you were connecting 2Cor 15 to Romans 7 to make a point that the "wretchedness" is the same as the "corruption" in 2Cor 15. Paul is actually speaking of the mortal body in 2Cor 15 not a corrupted nature.

Our natures change now or they never will. There is no magic transformation from a sinful person to a godly person at the resurrection. If we die a sinner then we will be judged as a sinner and perish. It is that simple.

 

[crossnote]

I thought I would add some verses for context because you snip isolated verses and present them out of context to argue in favour of a lie.

I could snip a whole book of the bible to give it more context.
How does your added verses change the fact that a Christian is under grace and not the law?

 

[just-me]

Look at us. The hippie generation born in the 40's ad the 50's. My My My.

 

[chubbena]

They are Gnostics posing as Christians Chubbena. Their religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ save in name only. They also hate being exposed as you can see in this thread.

Look at how Crossnote tied 1Cor 15:54-57 to the wretch of Romans 7 to imply that Christian's remain wretches until their death still enslaved to sin. That is a lie. They ignore Romans 6 completely where Paul specifically speaks of being set free from sin and not serving sin. They won't even touch those verses.

These people will always respond within their limited framework with their limited proof texts. The best way to expose them is from without their framework, going for the root. If that is not done they try and tie you up in little squibbles about select scriptures and when you address one they go to the next one and ignore the first.

These have to be wicked people to be doing this and I think we have to realise this fact. Only a wicked person would totally ignore the plain words of Jesus and imply we don't have to do anything when Jesus said that we do.

Notice that Crossnote in quoting 1Cor 15:54-57 cut short of quoting this passage...

1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Paul right there connects our labour with God's work. Again it is the synergism spoken of in 2Cor 6:1...

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

That synergism is the dynamic that makes us the righteousness of God in Him.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

It's the same reason they never connect Eph 2:8 to Eph 2:5 where Paul describes grace as the quickening.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

These people absolutely abhor the notion of cooperating with God even though the Bible teaches it simply because it contradicts there foundation of Total Depravity and thus Inability. In their minds they perceive that God's sovereignty relates to everything that happens within the context of determinism, thus any choice alluded to on the part of human beings is a denial of the sovereignty of God in their minds.

For a great example of this at work check out the following debate between Jesse Morrell and Sye Ten Burggencate.

Jesse Morrell Debates Sye Ten Bruggencate on Calvinism, Sovereignty, Abortion, Open Theism | Biblical Truth Resources

While I am opposed to Jesse's promotion of the false teacher Charles Finney (a man who never gave up some of the fundamentals of Reformed Theology and also taught substitution) because I oppose the Moral Government view of the atonement, Jesse nonetheless is a very sound thinker in regards to the Reformed view of the Sovereignty of God. For he makes this point...



Jesse then simplifies it like this...



He then contrasts it to this...



Now if you look at the rest of the debate none of the Calvinists have an answer. They do what Elin does and misdirect with side issues and simply assert "you do not understand."

These people can be confounded by going to the root of their theology and demonstrating now only that it contradicts the Bible, but that it also contradicts sound logic. When the root is exposed everything else just collapses because everything else is established upon that root.

These people always defend sin. Always. That is why they refuse to discuss heart purity. It's the elephant in the room.

Many are the product of institutional church and seminaries, not unlike the first century which went by another name, who have to protect their system at any cost to keep their position. They are used to be on the pulpits not in among brothers, to "likes" but not questions. Once questions are outside the scoop of their teaching, they are taught to use their "authority" to suppress further ones.
Unfortunately it does not work on forums not unlike the old synagogues where everyone has the right to speak up. The moving targets are their only way out but I see them as exercises in His Word and I thank them more than once for that.
On the other hand, I would not lower earlier fellow believers such as Calvin to the same level. Calvin was writing against the system of his time not unlike Paul was in his - and - one must understand the background prior to pulling their words out of context.
One must understand much of their one line accusations are their ways to concede defeat not unlike the first century when the Lord was accused of being demon-possessed. Misdirect is just another. I have been here long enough to see that.
It's very comforting to see the way you exposed their wickedness and uphold the truth. Hopefully in time some realise their wrong doing and come to their senses.

 

[Skinski7]

Many are the product of institutional church and seminaries, not unlike the first century which went by another name, who have to protect their system at any cost to keep their position. They are used to be on the pulpits not in among brothers, to "likes" but not questions. Once questions are outside the scoop of their teaching, they are taught to use their "authority" to suppress further ones.
Unfortunately it does not work on forums not unlike the old synagogues where everyone has the right to speak up. The moving targets are their only way out but I see them as exercises in His Word and I thank them more than once for that.
On the other hand, I would not lower earlier fellow believers such as Calvin to the same level. Calvin was writing against the system of his time not unlike Paul was in his - and - one must understand the background prior to pulling their words out of context.
One must understand much of their one line accusations are their ways to concede defeat not unlike the first century when the Lord was accused of being demon-possessed. Misdirect is just another. I have been here long enough to see that.
It's very comforting to see the way you exposed their wickedness and uphold the truth. Hopefully in time some realise their wrong doing and come to their senses.

That is a pretty good observation in regards to how institutional authority works.

I also view many of these things as exercises. It is excellent training for the street and makes contending for the truth much easier because on a forums people have much more complex arguments and when addressing the various points it really helps the thinking process of breaking things down and looking at the underlying fundamentals and thus in the streets it is very easy to answer any question because all the issues have already been dealt with in depth.

Forums like Christianchat make good training grounds for contenders of the faith, so long as they are already grounded in the truth lest they be deceived by the errors which abound.


I wouldn't defend John Calvin though. Even though he was writing against the system of the time he nonetheless had his own agenda in doing so. He was an intellectual and was clearly unwilling to bend his mind to the scripture and would thus force the scripture to bend to his mind. He did this because he had committed himself to many of the fundamentals of Augustine, primarily Original Sin and Augustinian Predestination. That was the mindset with which he approached the Bible when developing his systematic theology and can see it where he flat out denies certain passages and butchers them into saying what he wants them to day.

Here is a quote from John Calvin I have used a few times in the past which serves to illustrate just how off base he was...

"23. Hence also it is proved, that it is entirely by the intervention of Christ’s righteousness that we obtain justification before God. This is equivalent to saying that man is not just in hi
mself, but that the righteousness of Christ is communicated to him by imputation, while he is strictly deserving of punishment. Thus vanishes the absurd dogma, that man is justified by faith, inasmuch as it brings him under the influence of the Spirit of God by whom he is rendered righteous. This is so repugnant to the above doctrine that it never can be reconciled with it."

Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

John Calvin simply could not perceive that faith is the working principle of yielding to God by which we are internally cleansed and made pure. Instead he saw "Christ's righteousness" as a substitute for purity on our part.

In order to believe that He had to ignore the teachings of Jesus because they contradict the Totally Depravity and Substitutional Provision he believed in. I am pretty sure he probably didn't dwell on it much and thus his rejection of the truth was at a more unconscious level (like most people) yet nonetheless it is willful rebellion.

 

[Skinski7]

I could snip a whole book of the bible to give it more context.
How does your added verses change the fact that a Christian is under grace and not the law?

Grace is not a cloak for sinning. That is the misconception.

This verse...

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Paul is simply teaching that God gives men time to repent, he is not teaching that grace cloaks sin. God is patient with the wicked and thus when sin abounds grace abounds much more. In the next verses Paul makes it certain that no-one could misunderstand him and think he was preaching license because he describes the Christian walk.

He asks...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Should we keep on sinning so grace abounds even more? It is the same sentiment he writes in Romans 3...

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

If the unrighteousness of sinners makes more stark the contrast to the righteousness of God doesn't that make sin good? Thus let us do evil so good may come.

The answer would be "God forbid" on both counts. In Romans 6 Paul teaches...

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The above is what is meant to happen in genuine Christianity. The believer stops sinning because they are crucified with Christ in the baptism of repentance. The old man being crucified is an illustration of this and the body of sin is an illustration of the "insatiable desire to keep sinning." The crucifixion of the flesh through a genuine repentance destroys the body of sin permanently and it is only then that an individual can stop sinning because the bondage has been broken. That is the reason that Paul writes that from henceforth the service of sin stops, he who is dead is free from sin.

Practically no-one teaches that today even though it is before all out eyes right there in the Bible.

Paul is teaching the mechanics of the cross and how it works and teaching why grace is not a license to sin. When people take the plain words of Paul and give it a "positional application" they can then teach that the sin "manifestly" doesn't stop but that "positionally" God doesn't see it anymore because of the transaction taught in the Penal Substitution doctrine.

The deception is ingenious. Satan must be a master theologian in influencing the minds of men to come up with this stuff.

 

[Elin]

What struggle if one believes to obey the Lord is one thing and to keep the law is another?
But Paul wrote: "I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."
He also wrote: "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."
Not until one lets the Holy Spirit in charge would he be able to submit to God's law.

In charge? We don't let the Holy Spirit regenerate us.
We have nothing to do with our spiritual rebirth, just as we have nothing to do with our natural birth.

Until his sinful unregenerate nature is reborn of the Holy Spirit into eternal life,
unregenerate man is rebellious, insubordinate and spiritually powerless to do anything that pleases God.

 

[Elin]

Do you have difficulty saying, "We are not under law but under grace? as in...

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for
ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Rom 6:14)

That is because this conversation is about Law, you made the thread yourself.

No, I am not afraid to say "we are under
Grace". But, that does not give us a license to sin.

Straw man.

 

[Elin]

Have you asked Paul yet?

Pay attention.

Addressed in post #409, here, 11 posts previous to yours above.

 

[Skinski7]

In charge? We don't let the Holy Spirit regenerate us.
We have nothing to do with our spiritual rebirth, just as we have nothing to do with our natural birth.

Until his sinful unregenerate nature is reborn of the Holy Spirit into eternal life,
unregenerate man is rebellious, insubordinate and spiritually powerless to do anything that pleases God.

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Act 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Act 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
...
Act 10:24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
Act 10:27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Act 10:29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
Act 10:31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
Act 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
Act 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

 

[Elin]

They are Gnostics posing as Christians Chubbena.

Kinda' like those JW's posing as Christians, who deny the deity of Jesus Christ

and teach an anti-gospel that we have a part in saving ourselves.

You still have not directly dealt with Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8; Eph 2:3.

 

[crossnote]

Is there any sin that must be stopped before God will forgive you?

The sin of unbelief.

 

[crossnote]

Grace is not a cloak for sinning. That is the misconception.

This verse...

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Paul is simply teaching that God gives men time to repent, he is not teaching that grace cloaks sin. God is patient with the wicked and thus when sin abounds grace abounds much more. In the next verses Paul makes it certain that no-one could misunderstand him and think he was preaching license because he describes the Christian walk.

He asks...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Should we keep on sinning so grace abounds even more? It is the same sentiment he writes in Romans 3...

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

If the unrighteousness of sinners makes more stark the contrast to the righteousness of God doesn't that make sin good? Thus let us do evil so good may come.

The answer would be "God forbid" on both counts. In Romans 6 Paul teaches...

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The above is what is meant to happen in genuine Christianity. The believer stops sinning because they are crucified with Christ in the baptism of repentance. The old man being crucified is an illustration of this and the body of sin is an illustration of the "insatiable desire to keep sinning." The crucifixion of the flesh through a genuine repentance destroys the body of sin permanently and it is only then that an individual can stop sinning because the bondage has been broken. That is the reason that Paul writes that from henceforth the service of sin stops, he who is dead is free from sin.

Practically no-one teaches that today even though it is before all out eyes right there in the Bible.

Paul is teaching the mechanics of the cross and how it works and teaching why grace is not a license to sin. When people take the plain words of Paul and give it a "positional application" they can then teach that the sin "manifestly" doesn't stop but that "positionally" God doesn't see it anymore because of the transaction taught in the Penal Substitution doctrine.

The deception is ingenious. Satan must be a master theologian in influencing the minds of men to come up with this stuff.

Where did I say grace is a cloak for sinning?

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 

[crossnote]

In charge? We don't let the Holy Spirit regenerate us.
We have nothing to do with our spiritual rebirth, just as we have nothing to do with our natural birth.

Until his sinful unregenerate nature is reborn of the Holy Spirit into eternal life,
unregenerate man is rebellious, insubordinate and spiritually powerless to do anything that pleases God.

I'm having serious concerns these people know what 'being born again' is.