The Sin of Pacifism

[Jason0047]

Yes I do understand.
You are not the one who understands. It plainly says go and buy a sword ( not spiritual ), and the disciples said look here are two swords, and He said it is enough.
This is not spiritual swords, or the word of God being talked about here. They were actual swords.

He did not alter or change what He said.
He told them to go buy some as if nobody had one, when they saw that they had two already Jesus said that would be enough. There was no need to go get more because they had enough for the situation at hand.

No, Jesus said he that does not have one is to go out and buy one. This applied to ALL of them who did not have a sword. That's what He said. You can't erase Jesus' words just because they do not sound good to you. They clearly misunderstood him like they did many times before. So seeing they misunderstood Him, like He was expecting them to, He said it was enough for the situation to teach them a lesson NOT TO USE THE SWORD. Unless of course you believe Jesus was praising Peter in his use of the sword.

 

[elf3]

Yeah, God didn't tell you to do that. Another spirit influenced into doing that.[/QUOTE

LOL!!!

 

[Jason0047]

LOL!!!

Hurting another human being under any circmustances within the New Testament is wrong. Jesus nor any of the apostles gave you permission to hurt anyone like that in defending others. Restraining the man until the polce arrived.... yes. Loving this man and praying for Him while you had him restrained... yes. But saying you would shoot the man if you had a gun is erasing any hope for this man to repent later and accept Jesus Christ. Or don't you care about others accepting the gospel?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Kenneth...there are some people who will not listen, because to listen would actually prove them wrong...he is one such person who twists scripture, rejects scripture, takes scripture out of context, fails to prove his stance by scripture in context, spiritualizes away scripture, uses the O.T. when it justifies his stance, rejects the O.T. when it goes against his stance, is above being open to learning and instruction and seemingly regurgitates something that has been taught to him by someone else who is ignorant of certain scriptural truths...NO wonder he was rejected and hammered at the other site that he was on....a joke for sure!

Yes, and I know that. Which is why I brought up how he used the scripture about not living by bread alone but by every word of God. Yet when ever somebody uses scriptures from the OT that speaks of the moral values that were taught, he says does not apply. Is he not going by all the word of God when doing that. He talks a lot about spiritual meaning, then takes a scripture like that and makes it fleshly in standards by saying is talking about nutrients in bread. lol

We have shown him in this thread, and his others how his context is off. We have even showed him the Greek that was used in the original texts and the Greek words meaning. He still refused it.

 

[elf3]

I think the main point you refuse to accept Jason is this..we are NOT talking about people being persecuted for their faith but about a physical attack against someone for no other intention other than harm.

You keep refusing to understand this point. You are so far up on your horse you won't and can't see our argument. And if you say yes I understand you are lying because you keep bringing up Jesus, Paul and the other Apostles who were martyred which is a different word with different meaning than murdered.

Jump on me now tell me you don't keep bringing them up...which would be a lie. You REFUSE to admit a difference.

And I'll say this again so people can see your true colors...I apologized for something I said out of not knowing and you totally refused to acknowledge it or anything. Yep that's you skip. (you like the smiley face?)

Hey skip accept the fact that you refused the apology of a fellow Christian because your feelings were hurt. You are so holier than tho that you refused to accept.

Admit that fact and maybe you will earn just a little respect. The other person I apologized too...well I truly respect him.

 

[Jason0047]

I think the main point you refuse to accept Jason is this..we are NOT talking about people being persecuted for their faith but about a physical attack against someone for no other intention other than harm.

You keep refusing to understand this point. You are so far up on your horse you won't and can't see our argument. And if you say yes I understand you are lying because you keep bringing up Jesus, Paul and the other Apostles who were martyred which is a different word with different meaning than murdered.

Jump on me now tell me you don't keep bringing them up...which would be a lie. You REFUSE to admit a difference.

And I'll say this again so people can see your true colors...I apologized for something I said out of not knowing and you totally refused to acknowledge it or anything. Yep that's you skip. (you like the smiley face?)

Not really. New Testament believers who are truly interested in the truth build their faith upon the Word of God; And the New Testament does not speak about anything that you are talking about.

 

[kennethcadwell]

No, Jesus said he that does not have one is to go out and buy one. This applied to ALL of them who did not have a sword. That's what He said. You can't erase Jesus' words just because they do not sound good to you. They clearly misunderstood him like they did many times before. So seeing they misunderstood Him, like He was expecting them to, He said it was enough for the situation to teach them a lesson NOT TO USE THE SWORD. Unless of course you believe Jesus was praising Peter in his use of the sword.

If Jesus would have been talking about spiritual swords, and the apostle took it as physical swords as they did.
He would have rebuked them for not understanding again like He did before.
Jesus always explained, or rebuked them for not understanding Him. In this case He did not, He said that was enough about the two physical swords the disciples had.

Plus it couldn't have been spiritual swords because one Jesus was already with them, so they didn't need to go get Him.
And they only had the OT scriptures of the Torah and writings of the prophets back then. They did not have the NT scriptures for they were not written yet.
Jesus is the word, and He was still with them so they had no need to be told by Him to go get more for there is no other besides Him.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, and I know that. Which is why I brought up how he used the scripture about not living by bread alone but by every word of God. Yet when ever somebody uses scriptures from the OT that speaks of the moral values that were taught, he says does not apply. Is he not going by all the word of God when doing that. He talks a lot about spiritual meaning, then takes a scripture like that and makes it fleshly in standards by saying is talking about nutrients in bread. lol

We have shown him in this thread, and his others how his context is off. We have even showed him the Greek that was used in the original texts and the Greek words meaning. He still refused it.

Hebrews 10:1 NIV
"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."

John 5:39
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

 

[kennethcadwell]

Hebrews 10:1 NIV
"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."

John 5:39
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Once again though you confuse the mosaic law with God's moral laws.
The mosaic law of written ordinances are the ones that do not apply, God's moral laws do apply and did not change from the OT to the NT.
Love, Forgiveness....................................

 

[elf3]

And yet again you Jason the "great" Christian refuse to acknowledge the apology. You have "great insight" into the Word of God but you have no idea of forgiveness.

I have yet to call someone here a hypocrite but boy are you getting close.

I don't need it but just showing where your "Christianity" is at kinda shows true colors.

 

[Jason0047]

If Jesus would have been talking about spiritual swords, and the apostle took it as physical swords as they did. He would have rebuked them for not understanding again like He did before.
Jesus always explained, or rebuked them for not understanding Him. In this case He did not, He said that was enough about the two physical swords the disciples had.

Jesus rebuke was later. It was delayed. For the disciples did not understand when he spoke of his death and resurrection. It was not until later, after his resurrection that they fully understood.

Plus it couldn't have been spiritual swords because one Jesus was already with them, so they didn't need to go get Him.
And they only had the OT scriptures of the Torah and writings of the prophets back then. They did not have the NT scriptures for they were not written yet. Jesus is the word, and He was still with them so they had no need to be told by Him to go get more for there is no other besides Him.

First, I never said they were to go out and buy the New Testament Scriptures. They obviously did not exist yet. That is silly to even suggest such a thing. The gospels themselves testify that the accounts of the gospels were written down later. Second, Jesus referenced OT Scripture many many times as a part of His ministry. So did the apostles. Jesus desired them to trust in the written Word and to be learned in the OT Scriptures and always have them on hand because they testified of Him. For later after the church was formed: Paul essentially said, study to show thyself approved unto God.

 

[elf3]

Hahaha! Ken sorry brother but you seem to have drawn his attention.

The unforgiving heart of Jason.

Or did he maybe put me on ignore so he doesn't have to admit that he can't forgive?

 

[elf3]

Kinda funny the ways you can ignore or refuse the truth.

 

[Jason0047]

And yet again you Jason the "great" Christian refuse to acknowledge the apology. You have "great insight" into the Word of God but you have no idea of forgiveness.

I have yet to call someone here a hypocrite but boy are you getting close.

I don't need it but just showing where your "Christianity" is at kinda shows true colors.

Have no idea what you are talking about. I might have missed what you said. I do tend to skip over some people's posts sometimes. Especially if there is no references to the Word of God within them.

However, if you think my pacificism is in conflcit with me calling the police who could POTENTIALLY use lethal force (As a part of God's arm of carrying out justice) or me calling upon God to protect me with his angels who could POTENTIALLY use lethal force then you clearly do not understand that God is sovereign. For God can easily control his angels just as God can easily control the military and the police when it comes to bringing order and protection to our nation. For I believe the Scriptures plainly teach that God is the ultimate protector and that He uses the military and the police for His own purposes. It is God I trust. It is God I trust to execute proper justice. The police and the military are just God's unbelieving ministers that carry out justice on his behalf sometimes.

 

[dcontroversal]

Once again though you confuse the mosaic law with God's moral laws.
The mosaic law of written ordinances are the ones that do not apply, God's moral laws do apply and did not change from the OT to the NT.
Love, Forgiveness....................................

No doubt.....Peter must have been stupid or mistaken to tell us to be MINDFUL of the WORDS that were spoken BY THE HOLY PROPHETS and APOSTLES.....His stance lacks merit and the way he rejects the word he must be a JW or something like that as a true child of God weighs all scriptures and not just a few out of context and then go to seed on them......My O.T. tells me to DEFEND those who cannot defend themselves and there is a time TO KILL and a time to HEAL.....and in the same book NOTHING NEW UNDER THE sun...That which has been will be PERIOD!

 

[dcontroversal]

Have no idea what you are talking about. I might have missed what you said. I do tend to skip over some people's posts sometimes. Especially if there is no references to the Word of God within them.

However, if you think my pacificism is in conflcit with me calling the police who could POTENTIALLY use lethal force (As a part of God's arm of carrying out justice) or me calling upon God to protect me with his angels who could POTENTIALLY use lethal force then you clearly do not understand that God is sovereign. For God can easily control his angels just as God can easily control the military and the police when it comes to bringing order and protection to our nation. For I believe the Scriptures plainly teach that God is the ultimate protector and that He uses the military and the police for His own purposes. It is God I trust. It is God I trust to execute proper justice. The police and the military are just God's unbelieving ministers that carry out justice on his behalf sometimes.

Par for the course here as scripture has been quoted which you reject and on top of that do you know how retarded your second paragraph is? Are we not to be like God and if God and his angels can use lethal force it is EQUALLY right for us to use it if it is called upon to help a child ....dude you are beyond belief and your stance is a joke!

 

[Jason0047]

No doubt.....Peter must have been stupid or mistaken to tell us to be MINDFUL of the WORDS that were spoken BY THE HOLY PROPHETS and APOSTLES.....His stance lacks merit and the way he rejects the word he must be a JW or something like that as a true child of God weighs all scriptures and not just a few out of context and then go to seed on them......My O.T. tells me to DEFEND those who cannot defend themselves and there is a time TO KILL and a time to HEAL.....and in the same book NOTHING NEW UNDER THE sun...That which has been will be PERIOD!

You have not liked me since I started posting here; And no. I am not a JW. I believe the Lord our God is one God who exists as three persons (i.e. the Father, the Word, and the Hoy Ghost) (1 John 5:7). I believe Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16) and that He died for our sins and rose the third as the Scriptures clearly teach. But I don't believe we as believers cannot love, though. That is what I believe everyone here is not doing as per Jesus' commands.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Jesus rebuke was later. It was delayed. For the disciples did not understand when he spoke of his death and resurrection. It was not until later, after his resurrection that they fully understood.



First, I never said they were to go out and buy the New Testament Scriptures. They obviously did not exist yet. That is silly to even suggest such a thing. The gospels themselves testify that the accounts of the gospels were written down later. Second, Jesus referenced OT Scripture many many times as a part of His ministry. So did the apostles. Jesus desired them to trust in the written Word and to be learned in the OT Scriptures and always have them on hand because they testified of Him. For later after the church was formed: Paul essentially said, study to show thyself approved unto God.

Jesus taught and changed the meaning of some of the OT morals of sin.
Adultery in the OT was looked at as just the physical act, Jesus said in the NT that if you lust in your heart you commit adultery. He did not do away, He changed how they understood it. Just like hatred, He said was murder.

Like I said the moral values of right and wrong still apply very much. They were never done away with, so the OT moral values still apply. If they did not you could still go and murder, steal, lie, and so forth with no consequences.
Good news is we have a Lord and Savior who will forgive us of those sins if we repent and turn from doing them, and ask forgiveness of them.
If you don't repent and turn from them asking forgiveness of them, then you are not forgiven.

There is no other spiritual swords available to the disciples back then accept Jesus ( The Word ) and the Torah and books of the prophets. Neither one could they buy. And if it was the Torah or books of the prophets mentioned then a time to kill that you don't like in Ecclesiastes would still apply.

Besides that makes no since that them taking two physical swords, Jesus waiting tell later to rebuke them for it just does not fit. If He was against that, He could have stopped them before going to the garden.

 

[elf3]

Well jason if you skip over comments then you surely have your own agenda based on your own theology proved by your own grape juice theory. Therefore any argument you make is mute having no meaning because you refuse to read other people's comments because they don't fit your criteria.

One rule of debate is knowing the other point of view. You just proved you know nothing about my point of view unless I post some scripture hence you are ignorant of my view.

 

[Jason0047]

Well jason if you skip over comments then you surely have your own agenda based on your own theology proved by your own grape juice theory. Therefore any argument you make is mute having no meaning because you refuse to read other people's comments because they don't fit your criteria.

One rule of debate is knowing the other point of view. You just proved you know nothing about my point of view unless I post some scripture hence you are ignorant of my view.

There is no debate or discussion on the Word of God on this topic here unless you can prove your case with New Testament Scripture. For I tend not to view man's thoughts or his experiences on being on par with God's Word. Now, if it lines up with God's Word and you can demonstrate that, then that is fine. But just to prattle on about how you feel and what your life is like is totally an unbiblical concept. We are to test everything with the Word of God.