What is the different between original sin and daily sin.

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jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
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#41
No, read it again.

Paul states that where there is no law (itself), there is no transgression (sin is not taken into account, imputed).

He does not say where there is no knowledge of law.

Ro 5:12-21 is an involved argument showing that the sin of Adam is imputed to the sons of Adam,

which is what is called original sin.
It isn't, your erroneous reasonings on this passage slanders the character of God in no uncertain terms, you are saying that man sins because he has to (due to being created badly by God) and NOT because he wants to, you turn the meaning of repentance on its head!

Isaiah 53v6 states: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way..."

The Scriptures teach that man GOES astray (of his own freewill), he is NOT born astray!

Rom 4v15 is saying the same thing as Rom 5v13

You simply have swallowed down blindly the lies of those teachers that you favour!

God gave you a mind, I suggest you use it! Acts 17v10-12, 1Thess 5v21

Yahweh Shalom
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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#42
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Still stands unrefuted by the Pelagian crowd here.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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#43
Elin said:
You still have not directly dealt with, as in give the meaning of, Ro 5:18 (original sin),

in addition to Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 8:7-8; Eph 2:3, which are so contradictory to your human reasoning.
Elin you throw around out of context proof text verses like leaves in the autumn.

I have addressed multitudes of what you put forth
Sorry, the record speaks for itself,

and it shows no meanings or exegesis given by you of Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10; 4:5; 5:18; 8:7-8; Eph 2:3
.

What it does show are Scriptures set against themselves,
ipso facto proof that one does not understand the Scriptures correctly,
for the Scriptures do not contradict themselves,
but it shows no attempt to deal directly with, explain the meanings of, or exegete these Scriptures.

You've got a lot of unfinished business still on the table.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#44
I see the debate from both sides.
The thing is that death entered the world through Adams sin. We will face that death if we walk in our own willful sins.
If we however repent of our sins and believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are saved from a spiritual death.
( second death )
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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#45
And is there any indication in any of these texts which shows that
people are condemned because of what they've done...or because of
what they have not done?
Are you paying attention? I quoted Ro 5:18, which shows all mankind is condemned because of what Adam did.

The grammatical construction: "all have sinned " is sin they have done, which condemns them.

Bear, I won't be going around in circles with you.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#46
I see the debate from both sides.
The thing is that death entered the world through Adams sin. We will face that death if we walk in our own willful sins.
If we however repent of our sins and believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior we are saved from a spiritual death.
( second death )
Good point brother,

The wage of sin is death. I believe it mean physical death as well.

If Adam not sin, he may physically live till now in the garden.

So death may indicate that thought infant is sinner to, the fact that there is new born baby and die.

Let build Aristotele's deductive logic

Sin = death.

New born baby death.

> new born baby is sin.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#47
No, read it again.

Paul states that where there is no law (itself), there is no transgression (sin is not taken into account, imputed).

He does not say where there is no knowledge of law.

Ro 5:12-21 is an involved argument showing that the sin of Adam is imputed to the sons of Adam,

which is what is called original sin.

Elin is following Augustine's teachings on this matter.

Nowhere does the text state that the guilt of Adam is passed to all his descendents via imputation.

Here is the text...


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin first entered the world through Adam, while it was Eve who first actually sinned Adam is simply representative because he was the head of the household. Adam was led by his wife instead of led by God. It was due to sin that death resulted and the death spoken of here is not physical death but spiritual death.

Remember God had warned, "they day you eat... ye shall surely die." Adam died the very moment he sinned and it was not physical. It works like this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

It is lust which brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death.

Eve lusted...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Her lust brought forth sin and in turn brought forth death. That is sins wages...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin will ALWAYS bring death. Rebellion to God kills us to God, it destroys the spiritual connection because we turn to our own way and even worse it brings with it condemnation for we are guilty.

Paul wrote this...

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

That is how sin works. Sin requires a "knowledge of right doing" to kill because sin involves REBELLION. It is rebellion to God which kills an individual INSTANTLY.

That is the sin and death Adam brought into the world, and this death has passed onto all men why? Because ALL HAVE SINNED. What happened to Adam has happened to all of us when we CHOSE to sin.

We are all fully responsible for our own sin and resulting death. Original Sin denies this and puts the blame squarely on God who allows it to happen apart from any choice of an individual. Can you see how this maligns God's character? It is an evil doctrine, it is a dark doctrine, it is a deceptive doctrine which redefines everything to do with the Gospel.

Paul continues...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Doing wrong was in the world without the law of Moses but sin is not imputed without law. Why? Because condemnation is only wrought through the exercise of free moral agency to choose evil. If it wasn't that way then God would be a vindictive tyrant punishing innocent people for lacking knowledge. God is not unjust.

This is why Paul in Romans 7 teaches that he was alive once without the law. When Paul did not know right from wrong (like a baby) he simply could not sin. Sin takes occasion by a commandment or knowledge. Now that knowledge can either be a direct command given by God like the Decalogue or it can be knowledge wrought by our conscience (which is the light of God that appears to all men). This is why a child can only sin unto death when it reaches an age where it has the mental capacity to understand right from wrong and therefore gains the ability to CHOOSE wrong.

So when Paul rights...

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

... he is speaking that death (spiritual) reigned in the world because all sinned whether it was a violation of law (like Adam and after Moses) or a violation of conscience (between Adam and Moses) where they sinned not in the same way as Adam.

How can someone read an inherited sin nature into those verses? I'll tell you how.

AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO.

Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo around 400AD and he was steeped in Gnosticism before he converted to Catholicism. It was Augustine who developed the Original Sin doctrine and he did it by using the Latin Vulgate which says "in whom" instead of "that all have" in the Greek. Augustine thought that all the souls of humanity were present in Adam and thus sinned when Adam sinned. This teaching has a fancy theological term called "Traducianism" which simply is an allusion to how souls are birthed. Augustine viewed that all souls come into this world already condemned and corrupted because of this doctrine he developed.

Augustine was schooled in "dual nature" doctrine by Neo-platonist and Manichaean instructors and literature. "Dual nature" doctrine teaches that matter itself is evil and that the flesh body entraps a soul and prevents it from being virtuous. Augustine moulded this teaching with Christian terminology and was able to get it accepted as orthodox due to his prolific influence and writing ability.

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin were heavily influenced by the works of Augustine and both of them brought the Original Sin teaching in as the foundation for their doctrine. Martin Luther wrote "Bondage of the Will" where he teaches that the human will is bonded from birth to sin due to the fall of Adam whilst John Calvin taught total depravity. Their whole theological system is premised off this foundation and it permeates EVERYTHING established on top of it. It totally redefines the Gospel message to a "saved IN sin" message instead of a "saved FROM sin" message the multitudes of people who buy into it are going to be rejected at the judgement because they refused to repent and approach God in the proper manner, instead they bought into an approach that was a fairy tale.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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#48
Elin holds to the Calvinist doctrine of "Total Depravity".
Previously addressed here.

Elin holds to Ro 8:7-8 to which you object but have yet to give the meaning of, consistent with the text.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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#50
It isn't, your erroneous reasonings on this passage slanders the character of God in no uncertain terms, you are saying that man sins because he has to (due to being created badly by God) and NOT because he wants to, you turn the meaning of repentance on its head!
You have demonstrated your unbelief of Ro 5:18,

so I will be taking a pass from here on.
 
Last edited:

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
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#51
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Still stands unrefuted by the Pelagian crowd here.
All mankind has died spiritually because ALL have sinned (due to their OWN individual freewill choice), NOT because Adam sinned!

Isaiah 53v6, Ezek 18v4,20

Original Sin COMPLETELY REFUTED! :p
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#52
Let's continue with Paul...

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The free gift is a MEANS not a provision, just as Adam's offense was a MEANS. Eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ and what that means is that it is THROUGH "abiding IN His Spirit."

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

"Abiding in the Spirit" frees us from the "law of sin and death" because we are no longer "sinning unto death." That is why the Bible says...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That understanding IS NOT being taught today in the churches. That understanding has been excised from Christianity by Satan's perversions. People instead believe in an "abstract salvation" instead of a "manifest salvation." That is why people believe they can sin and not surely die.

The wages of sin is still death and the wages of sin will always be death. If you sin you die. It is that simple. Jesus not only saves us from that state but grants us eternal life because He was found worthy of the inheritance unlike us sinners. We are adopted into His family through the purchase He made on that cross IF we abide in Him through repentance and faith. This is not being taught practically anywhere anymore.

Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

None of these verses are speaking of an inherited sin nature or inherited guilt. People read that into the text.

Death reigned by what Adam did because he set the ball in motion. Adam brought the curse to the world and was kicked out of the garden (physical death is purely natural when denied access to the Tree of Life). We all are born into a world full of iniquity and heavily influenced by Satan and his associated demons.

Righteousness reigns by Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ kicked the ball in motion for heart purity. Jesus is the second Adam, the Adam who did things right. We are to follow the example of Jesus, not the example of Adam.

Again these verses have NOTHING to do with inherited condemnation and a inherited sin nature being passed onto people simple because they are born. False teachers teach that because they also teach you can sin and not surely die and need a foundation in order to teach that lie.


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

These verses are speaking of EXAMPLE not "automatic imputation." Many were made sinners because Adam sinned in that he brought sin and corruption into the world. God as a response pulled back and no longer walked with man, God began to deal with types and shadows in order to teach man. It is through Jesus Christ that the world was reconciled back to God and we now all have the opportunity to be individually reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The law was given so as to teach men how evil sin really is by giving it something of substance to contrast it to. Thus the offense would abound because of the law. Now God's grace which teaches us the way we should go (Tit 2:12) has abounded when all this sin has been abounding.

While sin reigns unto death it is grace that reigns through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:16 - Obedience unto righteousness.
Rom 6:19 - Righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:22 - Holiness unto eternal life.
Rom 6:23 - Thus eternal life through Jesus Christ, the Spirit of His life (Rom 8:2).

See how it all fits together perfectly? Yet I don't know of any pastor anywhere who teaches this stuff. It is right there in the Bible in front of all of us.

So what are we going to believe? A theology premised on Original Sin and inability where we wait on God to do everything because we cannot do anything? Or a theology premised on Free Will Ability where we have to willingly submit ourselves to God's lead, DO what he tells us to do and in doing so we are transformed from the inside out redeemed from all iniquity and made pure?

The choice is up to us.
 

Elin

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Jan 19, 2013
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#53
Elin is following Augustine's teachings on this matter.

Nowhere does the text state that the guilt of Adam is passed to all his descendents via imputation.

Here is the text...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
No the text is Ro 5:18, which you have yet to explain the meaning of.

And it does state all men are condemned because of Adam's sin.

Your standard intellectually dishonest methodology betrays your religious persuasion.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#54
Physical death is because of this...

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


The Tree of Life was the antidote for physical death. If sinning Adam still had access to the Tree of Life he would not have physically died. The death spoken of in Romans 5 is that of spiritual death, not physical.

Context, reason and a love of the truth is key when approaching the Bible for revelation.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#55
No the text is Ro 5:18, which you have yet to explain the meaning of.

And it does state all men are condemned because of Adam's sin.

Your standard intellectually dishonest methodology betrays your religious persuasion.
We face death in our fleshly bodies, we are not spiritual condemned by Adams sin.
Spiritual death comes from our own sins we commit, unless we repent of them and believe Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
Adams sin has nothing to do with condemning us in the spiritual death. ( second death )
 
May 14, 2014
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#56
Are you paying attention? I quoted Ro 5:18, which shows all mankind is condemned because of what Adam did.

The grammatical construction: "all have sinned " is sin they have done, which condemns them.

Bear, I won't be going around in circles with you.
You're out of context. Paul means Jews +Gentiles = ALL. He doesn't mean every human being...such as innocent babies.


Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Ro.1:32

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.Ro.2:1

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Vs.3

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Ro.3:10

Try reading vss.11-18. Then you might get the context
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#57
No the text is Ro 5:18, which you have yet to explain the meaning of.

And it does state all men are condemned because of Adam's sin.

Your standard intellectually dishonest methodology betrays your religious persuasion.
That you can honestly believe that a little baby is condemned and deserves hell just because you think some Bible verse teaches that shows that you are completely devoid of the Spirit of God.

If I came across a Bible verse which states that "killing and raping babies is ok" I would immediately know that it was a perversion of men for the word of God will never contradict the implanted word.

In your case the Bible verses you allude to do not even say what you claim they say, you simply impose your theology upon the verse and then boldly proclaim that those who refute you ignore those Bible verses.

The truth is right in front of your face yet your eyes are closed shut.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
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#58
That you can honestly believe that a little baby is condemned and deserves hell just because you think some Bible verse teaches that shows that you are completely devoid of the Spirit of God.

If I came across a Bible verse which states that "killing and raping babies is ok" I would immediately know that it was a perversion of men for the word of God will never contradict the implanted word.

In your case the Bible verses you allude to do not even say what you claim they say, you simply impose your theology upon the verse and then boldly proclaim that those who refute you ignore those Bible verses.

The truth is right in front of your face yet your eyes are closed shut.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Still doesn't give the meaning of Ro 5:18. . .
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#59
Here is a good lecture on Original Sin. It is not quite as long as the video I made which I linked in an earlier post but is very well focused. The earlier linked video (Augustine and Original Sin) is fully annotated so that anyone watching can duplicate the research and therefore read the source documents for themselves.

[video=youtube;MKcWPSm1Osc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKcWPSm1Osc[/video]
 
May 14, 2014
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#60
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Still stands unrefuted by the Pelagian crowd here.
Don't know what a pelagius iis here's the difference between what we believe:

This is where you are
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men. (Period)

This is where I am.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: