Whoever cares to answer

[newbirth]

NO, faith is part of the GIFT OF GOD that you do not deserve and cannot earn, never will think it up if HE DID NOT GIVE FAITH TO YOU. You just described Head Knowledge and called it faith. Genuine FAITH is Heart knowledge of HIM personally. The distance between false faith and genuine faith is the exact same as the distance between what is in your head and what is in your heart.

now you make assumptions where is your proof of that statement...

You just described Head Knowledge and called it faith. Genuine FAITH is Heart knowledge of HIM personally. The distance between false faith and genuine faith is the exact same as the distance between what is in your head and what is in your heart.

The scripture says faith without works is dead......you say genuine faith is heart knowledge...where is the works that goes with your faith in that?....without faith it is impossible to please God..


Romans 5:2

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[newbirth]

Yes, when we sin, and we will, he cleanses us when we confess.

But we do sin, and confess, and are cleansed. . .more than once.

and that is why I asked VCO .....how can sin dwell in you since you were purged from all sins?....if sin dwells there it means you are comfortable with them there....

 

[Elin]

and that is why I asked VCO .....
how can sin dwell in you since you were purged from all sins?....if sin dwells there it means you are comfortable with them there....

I see.

I suspect that by "dwell" he means what 1Jn 1:8, 10 are referring to.

 

[newbirth]

NO, faith is part of the GIFT OF GOD that you do not deserve and cannot earn, never will think it up if HE DID NOT GIVE FAITH TO YOU. You just described Head Knowledge and called it faith. Genuine FAITH is Heart knowledge of HIM personally. The distance between false faith and genuine faith is the exact same as the distance between what is in your head and what is in your heart.

Originally Posted by newbirth

we are saved by grace through faith...when you understand that everything will become clear...the grace of God brings us to repentance, faith is the way to access the grace of God...the beginning of your faith in Christ is repent and be baptised unto the remission of sins and you shall receive the HS....If you don't believe that then you don't believe Christ...

Romans 5:2

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[VCO]

now you make assumptions where is your proof of that statement...
The scripture says faith without works is dead......you say genuine faith is heart knowledge...where is the works that goes with your faith in that?....without faith it is impossible to please God..


Romans 5:2

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rule #1 in Bible interpretation is:

READ the entire CONTEXT.


Romans 5:1-2 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, having been justified by faith {past tense, justified faith is SAVED by Grace},
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

NOW is that faith of ourselves, or it is something GOD GAVE US AS A GIFT.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.


NOW if that faith is GENUINE heart knowledge of LOVINGLY KNOWING HIM, and not just head knowledge of acknowledging who He is like the demons do, will that faith out of the LOVE of GOD the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts, PRODUCE a desire to OBEY?

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keepMy commands.


Then we really have NOTHING to pat ourselves on the back for, do we? HE DID IT ALL via HIS HOLY SPIRIT!

Romans 7:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.

Galatians 2:16-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But if we ourselves are also found to be “sinners” while seeking to be justified by Christ, is Christ then a promoter of sin? Absolutely not!
[SUP]18 [/SUP] If I rebuild the system I tore down, I show myself to be a lawbreaker.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For through the law I have died to the law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ
[SUP]20 [/SUP] and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

 

[VCO]

and that is why I asked VCO .....how can sin dwell in you since you were purged from all sins?....if sin dwells there it means you are comfortable with them there....

Paul recognized the TRUTH, of a Sin Nature in the flesh; but you are blind to it, just like the Pharisees.


Romans 7:14-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

 

[VCO]

Yes, when we sin, and we will, he cleanses us when we confess.

But we do sin, and confess, and are cleansed. . .more than once.

Quote: Dr. John MacArthur

"A Christian is not sinless, but as he or she matures spiritually, they will sin less, and less, and less."

 

[VCO]

you speak this way because you have not been delivered from sin ...look at your quotes...how can sin dwell in you if you have been purged from sin?....
2 Peter 1:9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Romans 6:15-18King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[SUP]17[/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You are really using the same LOGIC that the Pharisees did.

YES we were set free from sin, THAT MEANS FREE FROM THE SLAVERY TO SIN.

THIS MORTAL FLESH WILL NOT BE SINLESS UNTIL WE ARE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD.


1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (HCSB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] So it is with the resurrection of the dead: Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
[SUP]43 [/SUP] sown in dishonor, raised in glory; sown in weakness, raised in power;
[SUP]44 [/SUP] sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

15:42b-44 Focusing directly on the resurrection body,
Paul gives four sets of contrasts to show how the new body
will differ from the present one (cf. v. 54; Phil. 3:20, 21):

(1) no more sickness and death (“corruption”);
(2) no more shame because of sin (“dishonor”);
(3) no more frailty in temptation (“weakness”); and
(4) no more limits to the time/space sphere (“natural”).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

15:43 The present body is sown in dishonor. There is nothing very majestic or glorious about a dead body. However, this same body will be raised in glory. It will be free from wrinkles, scars, the marks of age, overweight, and the traces of sin.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

 

[newbirth]

I see.

I suspect that by "dwell" he means what 1Jn 1:8, 10 are referring to.

while I understand what you are saying..... the power of that scripture is in vs 9...so we do not allow sin to dwell ( make it's home) in us

 

[VCO]

while I understand what you are saying..... the power of that scripture is in vs 9...so we do not allow sin to dwell ( make it's home) in us

So you really think you are sinless?


WATCH YOUR 6 ! Sin is sneaking up on you.


Here is a list 667 different sins talked about in the BIBLE:


http://amazingbible.org/Documents/Bible_Studies/Sin_list_part_6.htm

 

[newbirth]

You are really using the same LOGIC that the Pharisees did.

YES we were set free from sin, THAT MEANS FREE FROM THE SLAVERY TO SIN.

THIS MORTAL FLESH WILL NOT BE SINLESS UNTIL WE ARE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD.


1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (HCSB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] So it is with the resurrection of the dead: Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
[SUP]43 [/SUP] sown in dishonor, raised in glory; sown in weakness, raised in power;
[SUP]44 [/SUP] sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

when God says your sins are forgiven .....is he saying you are still in sins?...God gave us power to control this mortal flesh ....that we are not consumed by its desires...and he gave us victory over sin

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

if your mind is pure then your body will be pure....one minute you say you are born of God, free from sin and obedient to him ...the next minute you say you are sinful until you die...and if your statement is true...

.THIS MORTAL FLESH WILL NOT BE SINLESS UNTIL WE ARE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD.

then we were never purged from sins....we were never forgiven our sins....and it makes no sense for the scripture to tell us not to continue in sin....some say it is the spirit that does not sin and cannot sin...but what is the purpose of telling the spirit that cannot sin ...do not sin?

 

[newbirth]

So you really think you are sinless?


WATCH YOUR 6 ! Sin is sneaking up on you.


Here is a list 667 different sins talked about in the BIBLE:


http://amazingbible.org/Documents/Bible_Studies/Sin_list_part_6.htm

God does not want us to die in sin...
John 8:23-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

 

[newbirth]

Paul recognized the TRUTH, of a Sin Nature in the flesh; but you are blind to it, just like the Pharisees.


Romans 7:14-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

The man says he was rescued from that way in vs 25....he now controls the flesh by being a servant of God...
1 Corinthians 9:26-27Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Instead, I discipline my body and bring it under strict control, so that after preaching to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

 

[newbirth]

Quote: Dr. John MacArthur

"A Christian is not sinless, but as he or she matures spiritually, they will sin less, and less, and less."

Quote: word of God....
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I choose the word of God over ... Dr. John MacArthur

 

[RedTent]

Quote: word of God....
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I choose the word of God over ... Dr. John MacArthur

You have some very good wise scriptures that you go by. When you go to the Lord for cleansing from sin, you accept that as making you, like the old Hymn says, white as snow.

However, you are missing some of scripture that also apply. We are born in sin, meaning that we are born with a sinful nature. As long as we are in this body of flesh, there are desires of the flesh within us. Romans 7 still does apply, we are of the flesh.

There are two ways of handling this. One is to throw our hands in the air and say I just won't try to be sinless because I am never going to make it. That is giving up on Christ, for Christ does cleanse us and forgives us and we are the same as perfect even though we aren't. The other is to say that being Christ has forgiven me and make me clean, I am perfect. You are forgiven, you are accepted the same as a person not of the flesh, but you are in the flesh and you still need to strive for complete oneness with God every minute.

 

[LEPIDUS]

I would like to know what the debate is? I'm lost with all the back and forth.

 

[Elin]

You have some very good wise scriptures that you go by. When you go to the Lord for cleansing from sin, you accept that as making you, like the old Hymn says, white as snow.

However, you are missing some of scripture that also apply. We are born in sin, meaning that we are born with a sinful nature. As long as we are in this body of flesh, there are desires of the flesh within us. Romans 7 still does apply, we are of the flesh.

There are two ways of handling this. One is to throw our hands in the air and say I just won't try to be sinless because I am never going to make it. That is giving up on Christ, for Christ does cleanse us and forgives us and we are the same as perfect even though we aren't. The other is to say that being Christ has forgiven me and make me clean, I am perfect. You are forgiven, you are accepted the same as a person not of the flesh, but you are in the flesh and you still need to strive for complete oneness with God every minute.

This is not RedTent.

Where is RedTent? Is she okay?

 

[VCO]

when God says your sins are forgiven .....is he saying you are still in sins?...God gave us power to control this mortal flesh ....that we are not consumed by its desires...and he gave us victory over sin

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

if your mind is pure then your body will be pure....one minute you say you are born of God, free from sin and obedient to him ...the next minute you say you are sinful until you die...and if your statement is true...
then we were never purged from sins....we were never forgiven our sins....and it makes no sense for the scripture to tell us not to continue in sin....some say it is the spirit that does not sin and cannot sin...but what is the purpose of telling the spirit that cannot sin ...do not sin?

In 1 Pet. 4:8 in the modern translations it says LOVE will cover a multitude of sins. THAT MEANS THEY WERE NOT PURGED FROM THE FLESH, you will STILL HAVE THAT SIN NATURE THAT YOU INHERITED FROM ADAM.

You do know that a bad thought, even for an instant, is the SAME AS DOING THE DEED of SIN in God's eyes, don't you?

 

[VCO]

I would like to know what the debate is? I'm lost with all the back and forth.

LOL, I can understand that. We are desperately trying to get newbirth open his eyes and to live up to his name.

He does not understand born again.
He thinks that spiritual baptism into the body of Christ, is a doctrine of man, and not from God.
He denies the deity of Jesus Christ.
He thinks he was saved because he was baptized in water.
He does not think we should listen to good sound Bible Teachers, because that is listening to the doctrines of man.

Sometimes I think he is playing a game of just taking the opposite point of view to keep the debate going.
At other times I think he is one step from really becoming born again.
For sure he seems to be just like Saul before his conversion, and is kicking against the goad-like thorn bushes of TRUTH with only sandals on.

I think most of us are just about ready to kick the dust from our feet and ignore him.

 

[VCO]

Quote: word of God....
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I choose the word of God over ... Dr. John MacArthur

READ the rest of the CONTEXT:

1 John 1:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.