What is the different between original sin and daily sin.

[Skinski7]

But that rebellion of Israel is typified in the book of Hebrews as a lack of faith. We're not saved by our lack of sin, we're saved by faith. As the Hebrews author put it,

Heb. 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Here the author is specifically using Moses' generation as a type for individuals who have heard the gospel. I would make the case that the willful sin spoken of in hebrews is the rejection of Christ, not random willful sins. We commit willful sins everyday, and they are covered. But when God illuminate individuals to the truth about their sin and need for a Savior and they reject that, they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. That's the unpardonable sin.

Disobedience and unfaithfulness are the same thing.

Faith is inclusive of obedience because faith is simply a heart that trusts in and is therefore yielded to God.

That is why Abraham left his home and went out and why Noah built the Ark. They had faith. If they refused to do those things they would have lacked faith.

Faith = Faithfulness = Obedience.

It is also a misnomer to say "we are not saved by a lack of sin, we're saved by faith." Salvation involves being "saved FROM sin" and the means of this is by the "Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ" whereby we exist in a state of "not sinning unto death" and thus are "free from the law of sin and death" which is "you sin you die."

Jesus saves us from sinning, not merely from the condemnation wrought by our past sins. Jesus saves us from ongoing rebellion to God.

Ongoing rebellion to God is the context of Heb 10:26, it has NOTHING to do with rejecting Jesus. It has EVERYTHING to do with rejecting the CLEANSING wrought by Jesus.

This is how we approach God seeking a cleansing...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1. By the blood.
2. In a new and living way (ie. inward purity having forsaken our sin, our iniquity has been purged through repentance)
2. With a true heart.
3. In full assurance of faith.

It is THEN that we are cleansed from an evil conscience and our past sins are washed away. Thus it is fulfilling what David wrote...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

The result being a spirit with no guile (due to repentance) and the sins being forgiven (due to the mercy of God).

It is in this context that the warning is given...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

There is no sacrifice for ongoing willful sin because the purpose of the sacrifice is to give us a fresh start where we abide in a right relationship with God. To turn back to sin is to treat the blood of Jesus with contempt and that is why anyone in that state can only expect judgement lest they repent (which may not even be possible).

You say this...

We commit willful sins everyday, and they are covered.

You are very deceived to say such a thing and have no concept of what true salvation actually is. I urge you to examine your theology and see if it lines up with the Bible.

John wrote this...

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

If you commit willful sins everyday you are of the devil. The children of God are manifest that they do not sin.

Jesus came to save us FROM sin.

Jesus did not come to cover over ongoing wickedness.

 

[Calminian]

Yes, the imagination...which requires knowledge is evil from an early age. The flood destroyed them because they degenerated into "only evil" thoughts. Please see Romans 1.

But this statement was made after the flood. It was after the flood that God said I won't do this again, even though there thoughts are evil from youth. It's because it's part of our nature.

Jer. 3:25 We lie down in our shame,
And our reproach covers us.
For we have sinned against the LORD our God,
We and our fathers,
From our youth even to this day,
And have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.”

David is saying he was born into a sinful world, but that God is just to judge because of Davids own sin:
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done*this*evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest,*and*be clear when thou judgest. Vs.4

Yes, a sinful world where he fits right in. Sin is natural to us all. Corruption is something you have to fight, especially in kids.

Is. 1:4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsakend the LORD;
they have spurned the Holy Onee of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

People have the capacity to do good or bad and how you're taught has everything to do with it.

You can be taught to obey, but no one needs to be taught how to sin.

When I was a child, I wanted to know about God. Does anyone else remember feeling this way?

Sure, most kids want to. Atheism is very unnatural. But this doesn't mean kids don't sin and have a natural bent toward sin, it just they are not quite at an age where are are accountable. We naturally broke the laws of God as children, but without knowledge. As we aged though, we began to understand right and wrong, but continue to do wrong. From birth that is our nature.

 

[Calminian]

Disobedience and unfaithfulness are the same thing.

Faith is inclusive of obedience because faith is simply a heart that trusts in and is therefore yielded to God.

That is why Abraham left his home and went out and why Noah built the Ark. They had faith. If they refused to do those things they would have lacked faith.

Faith = Faithfulness = Obedience......

Well yes, but salvation is not about obedience or works. It's about trusting God is a specific area, even though you lack faith in a multitude of others. Paul said that God justifies the ungodly. Translation, God saves by faith those to are utterly disobedient and unfaithful.

Rom. 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Not working is as you say, not being faithful. Paul is telling us that God justifies the unfaithful, if they trust in Christ. You'll see this distinction between faith and words all over the new testament.

Looking back at Abraham, he lacked faith in all kinds of areas. Didn't even trust God enough to claim Sarah as his wife. Yet he shined as well, and God counted that faith as righteousness.

You and I fall drastically short in our every day faith and works. But if you're trusting the work Christ has done on you behalf, you will be saved. It's not about your works or your daily faith. If it is, you're in big trouble.

 

[chubbena]

But that rebellion of Israel is typified in the book of Hebrews as a lack of faith. We're not saved by our lack of sin, we're saved by faith. As the Hebrews author put it,

Heb. 4:2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Here the author is specifically using Moses' generation as a type for individuals who have heard the gospel. I would make the case that the willful sin spoken of in hebrews is the rejection of Christ, not random willful sins. We commit willful sins everyday, and they are covered. But when God illuminate individuals to the truth about their sin and need for a Savior and they reject that, they blaspheme the Holy Spirit. That's the unpardonable sin.

Indeed the Israelites were our example for lack of faith. Even in the OT God said His commandments were not too difficult.

For us it's a matter of whether we have the faith that in Him we are created new and that by the Spirit we shall overcome sin. He said in the book of Hebrews: "In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood."
Well He shed blood for us, didn't He?
Christians are supposed to be cleansed by His blood aren't we?
Christians are supposed to be a new creation aren't we?
Christians are supposed to have the Holy Spirit aren't we?
Why rely on our weakness and say we can't this and that?
Wilful sins are probably showing that we don't really know Him. It's probably about time to repent for He said: Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

 

[Skinski7]

Well yes, but salvation is not about obedience or works. It's about trusting God is a specific area, even though you lack faith in a multitude of others. Paul said that God justifies the ungodly. Translation, God saves by faith those to are utterly disobedient and unfaithful.

Rom. 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

You are twisting the Bible by isolating one verse and forcing your dogma upon it.

The Bible defines the KIND of faith that God accounts for righteousness. In Rom 4:10-12 it specifically speaks of a WALK that is associated with that faith.

Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

When Paul is speaking of faith he is speaking of an obedient faith not simply a mental conviction or confession.

The "Deeds of Faith" cannot be disconnected from genuine faith, they are two sides of the one coin. When the Bible says "not of works" it means "not of works done apart from faith." Going and getting circumcised and keeping rites and rituals cannot save anyone because these things don't touch the heart.

Paul taught that...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith Works By Love.

The faith you are speaking of is some kind of faith without love because the sin can continue.

Faith works by love and love works no ill.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

That is the reason we are not under the law if we have faith.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
...
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

That is the faith that God reckons as righteousness.

When the Bible says that God justifies the ungodly the context is "ungodly in the sense of being guilty of past rebellion." The context is not God justifying the presently wicked, such a thing would be an abomination.

Here is what Ignatius wrote to the Ephesians...

They that are of the flesh cannot do the works of the Spirit,[1] neither can they that are spiritual do the works of the flesh, even as faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith.

Ignatius - The Epistle to the Ephesians

Faith and Deeds are connected. There cannot be one without the other for faith is a HEART CONDITION and it is the condition of the heart out of which flows fruit related to that condition.

Ignatius was taught by John the apostle. That quote was the early church view. They NEVER EVER argued in favour of being able to sin and not surely die. If you were saved you had stopped sinning.

 

[Calminian]

You are twisting the Bible by isolating one verse and forcing your dogma upon it.....

One verse? I've mentioned several. It's just that that one is pretty clear.

Also, there's Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

My guess is you won't like that one either, but it's very clear Adam transformed the nature of himself, and his descendants. The law of God became intrinsic to the human race at that point. How told them they were naked? The answer is no one. They just knew in accordance with their new nature.

Now I'm not arguing that faith and deeds are not connected, I'm merely saying what Paul is, that we're saved by faith in a specific Person, not by works.

 

[Calminian]

...Wilful sins are probably showing that we don't really know Him.....

Then brother by your own tongue you have disavowed your Savior, because you are a sinner, and you often choose to sin on purpose.

 

[Jackson123]

Well yes, but salvation is not about obedience or works. It's about trusting God is a specific area, even though you lack faith in a multitude of others. Paul said that God justifies the ungodly. Translation, God saves by faith those to are utterly disobedient and unfaithful.

Rom. 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Not working is as you say, not being faithful. Paul is telling us that God justifies the unfaithful, if they trust in Christ. You'll see this distinction between faith and words all over the new testament.

Looking back at Abraham, he lacked faith in all kinds of areas. Didn't even trust God enough to claim Sarah as his wife. Yet he shined as well, and God counted that faith as righteousness.

You and I fall drastically short in our every day faith and works. But if you're trusting the work Christ has done on you behalf, you will be saved. It's not about your works or your daily faith. If it is, you're in big trouble.

It is new for me brother. I never hear this before, but I think this is true. I looking into myself, in a lot of area I not trusting and worry about my future, or my child future etc. I believe God have ability to taking care of my future, but because I am not obey Him in a lot area, I doubt He will do it for me.

I often worry about that in this, not because I don't believe His ability, but I question if He will do it for me.

 

[Skinski7]

It is new for me brother. I never hear this before, but I think this is true. I looking into myself, in a lot of area I not trusting and worry about my future, or my child future etc. I believe God have ability to taking care of my future, but because I am not obey Him in a lot area, I doubt He will do it for me.

I often worry about that in this, not because I don't believe His ability, but I question if He will do it for me.

A refusal to obey God is rebellion and that is an issue which YOU must address. God will not address that issue for you and that is why the Bible teaches repentance.

There can be no salvation without repentance and if you refuse to repent you will be lost.

Many people let their ears be tickled by doctrines which deny that a genuine repentance is necessary, don't be one of them.

Here is Paul describing the mechanics of repentance...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Repentance will leave you in a manifest state of obedience to God and it is in this obedient state that you can receive the word within by which you will be totally transform you. Without repentance the transformation cannot take place which is why James wrote the following...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

It is the implanted word which saves the soul but that implanted word cannot be received in rebellion hence repentance being mandatory.

There must be godly sorrow which brings to fruition a true repentance. Our old man must die in repentance whereby the body of sin is destroyed once and for all and ONLY THEN do we no longer serve sin.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The body of sin is the "addiction" to sinning. The body of sin is the "natural disposition to keep sinning" which has grown through a life of repeated sinning. Your brain has literally hardwired itself to disobey God because the sins of the flesh is what gives you temporary satisfaction and you have allowed yourself to becomes enslaved to your passions. That is why people cannot stop sinning.

That bondage can only be broken through repentance where we crucify our flesh with the passions and desires through the crisis of conviction wrought by godly sorrow. Thus we change our minds as we truly come to understand sin and righteousness. It is this crisis in the heart that produces a genuine conversion where we are yielded to God and opposed to sin. This has to happen.

Original Sin has destroyed this concept because people are deluded into believing they are "naturally born sinful" and thus they are compelled to wait on God to change them when the change occurs through repentance.

Look at this...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Repent ------> Conversion ---------> Sins blotted out at refreshing.

Has that happened to you? Be honest about it. I could not have if you never obeyed from your heart.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We have to die to sin once and for all. Dying to sin ends rebellion to God permanently. Dying to sin ends the state of "sinning unto death" permanently. That is why Peter wrote...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

That change must occur. Anyone teaching that they are saved and still disobedient does not have any idea what salvation actually is, they have been fooled into thinking it is some kind of abstraction which is totally disconnected from the true condition of their heart.

Look through a lot of the posts in this thread and you can see many people arguing in favour of ongoing rebellion to God in salvation. All those people are totally deceived. None of those people could have possibly repented. They will quote Bible verses but if you dig into those verses and look at the surrounding context you will see that they are twisting the Bible. This is the error of the wicked Peter spoke of...

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

There are people who deny that we are to be diligent to be found without spot and blameless and instead twist Paul's writings to teach a "saved IN sin" message.

Don't fall for it.

Truth is truth. Reality is reality.

Opinion is opinion. Opinion at odds with reality is vanity.

We are to DILIGENTLY seek truth and when it contradicts our opinion we are to bend our opinion to the truth, not bend the truth to our opinion.

When Jesus taught that it is the pure in heart who will see God, He meant exactly that.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Anyone who is disobedient to God is not pure in heart.

John wrote this...

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1Jn 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

That is the truth!

 

[Skinski7]

One verse? I've mentioned several. It's just that that one is pretty clear.

Also, there's Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

My guess is you won't like that one either, but it's very clear Adam transformed the nature of himself, and his descendants. The law of God became intrinsic to the human race at that point. How told them they were naked? The answer is no one. They just knew in accordance with their new nature.

Now I'm not arguing that faith and deeds are not connected, I'm merely saying what Paul is, that we're saved by faith in a specific Person, not by works.

The context of Rom 5:19 is that of example not of corruption through inheritance.

Paul is not going to contradict Ezekiel who wrote...

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You are teaching that all of Adam's descendents bear the iniquity of Adam and that is not true. We all bear our own iniquity wrought through our own choices.

Again if Adam's sin made everyone else evil and guilty automatically then Christ's obedience would make everyone righteous and innocent automatically.

The context of that verse is this...

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

and this...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We are saved via entering into a MANIFEST STATE of ABIDING IN THE SPIRIT. We are lost via entering into a MANIFEST STATE of SERVING THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH IN DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD. Your doctrine is trying to fuse the two together by ignoring the condition of the heart.

Many were made sinners by the disobedience of Adam because many followed after his example and sinned unto death.

Look at this...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death passed upon all men because all sinned. The wages of sin is death, you sin you die. It is not hereditary.

We are responsible for our own sin, we cannot blame Adam.

You are blaming your birth state for your sin instead of taking full responsibility for it.

You cherry pick the Bible to avoid personal responsibility for your sin because it probably make you feel comfortable.

You cannot repent if you refuse to take responsibility and thereofore no wonder you fall easily for the deception of an abstract salvation where you think you are saved while you are still actually wicked.

THINK.

What does the Bible actually teach?

 

[jdbear]

But this statement was made after the flood. It was after the flood that God said I won't do this again, even though there thoughts are evil from youth. It's because it's part of our nature.

It doesn't matter when God said this. The point is they became totally evil, which shows they weren't that way to begin with. Look at Ro.1 for how this happens. It disproves people begin with no capacity to do good.

Jer. 3:25 We lie down in our shame,
And our reproach covers us.
For we have sinned against the LORD our God,
We and our fathers,
From our youth even to this day,
And have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.”

This is a prayer of repentance.

Yes, a sinful world where he fits right in. Sin is natural to us all. Corruption is something you have to fight, especially in kids.

Brother, look at the Psalm you cited and tell me why David says God is just to bring judgement against him.

Is. 1:4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsakend the LORD;
they have spurned the Holy Onee of Israel
and turned their backs on him.

Have you noticed that the "Woe" belongs to people who commit evil?

You can be taught to obey, but no one needs to be taught how to sin.

Yes they do, because sin takes knowledge:

To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth*it*not, to him it is sin Ja.4:17

Sure, most kids want to. Atheism is very unnatural. But this doesn't mean kids don't sin and have a natural bent toward sin, it just they are not quite at an age where are are accountable. We naturally broke the laws of God as children, but without knowledge. As we aged though, we began to understand right and wrong, but continue to do wrong. From birth that is our nature.

My friend, nobody is suggesting we aren't sinners. Tell you what. Look at Romans 1 and insert yourself as child into the text where Paul speaks about the sinners. Doing it that way, see if the text is as foolish to you as it is to me.

 

[Elin]

You want Jesus' sacrifice for all to be the equal but opposite solution to Adams sin for all

Those are your words, not mine.

It's not mine to want, it's God's to reveal.

 

[Elin]

There are quite the answers to this questions posted here.
One says she knows all so the case is closed.
Another speaks of everyone paying penance for all sin.

Hi, "RedTent,"

Read 'em again.

I don't use the word "penance". . .and you know that.

One speaks of God condemning the entire race,

Care to explain Ro 5:18: "the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

But the one that really tops them all is "intellectually dishonest methodology".

The record speaks for itself.

I can understand your frustration at being unable to Biblically demonstrate your theology,
and left only with complaining about that fact.

There aren't any posts telling that we are born in sin,

Posts are not the authority of God, so it matters not.

 

[jdbear]

Those are your words, not mine.

It's not mine to want, it's God's to reveal.

Here's your problem Elin. It is yours to want because you interpreted it that way. God doesn't reveal His word with untruth.

 

[jdbear]

Double post........

 

[Elin]

Sins of ignorance are not sins unto death.

God reckons FAITH as righteousness not ACTUAL PERFECTION.

Your premise of "we'll all be in trouble" is established on the notion that God requires ACTUAL PERFECTION instead of PERFECT FAITH.

God reckoned Abraham's FAITH as righteousness, not Abraham's deeds. Abraham was faithful from the heart and that is what counts.

God is looking at the heart of a man not external deeds in exclusion of the heart.

The end of the commandment is not "perfect deeds" but a "perfect heart."

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1. Love out of a pure heart.
2. A good conscience.
3. Genuine faith.

Obedience to the command comes from love,
which comes from a pure heart,
which comes from a good conscience,
which comes from a sincere unfeigned faith.

If your faith is sincere, you have the rest which come from it.

Original Sin absolutely destroys the Gospel message because
it presents another way of approaching God apart from repentance.

Really? And what would that "other way" be?

Poor Paul. . .he absolutely destroyed the very Gospel message he preached when he wrote:

"the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men." (Ro 5:18)

I wonder if he knows that now. . .

And you still have unfinished business on the table.
You still have not explained the meanings of Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18; 8:7-8; Eph 2:3
in a way that doesn't violate their texts.

 

[jdbear]

Originally posted by Elin,
Care to explain Ro 5:18:*"the result of*one*trespass was condemnation for*all*men."

Don't forget...because all (meaning both Jew and Gentile who know better) have sinned. And reading Romans from the beginning, isn't this what Paul really means? Doesn't this resonate with the Holy Spirit in you? Doesn't the spiritual mind of Christ within you tell you the God doesn't send innocent babies to damnation?

 

[Calminian]

It doesn't matter when God said this. The point is they became totally evil, which shows they weren't that way to begin with. ......

Yes, and that beginning was in the Garden. Through one man the many became sinners. God wasn't surprised they became sinners. He knew what had happened.

But jdbear, you were born with a sin nature and you will war with it until you die, as Paul did in Romans 7.

 

[Elin]

See that is the thing, John the Baptist preached repentance.

John also preached...

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

That is the same message Paul preached in Acts...

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Paul preached that deeds prove repentance. A genuine change of mind must be reflected by a complete change in action. Thus people need to repent and bring forth deeds that prove that repentance.

Original Sin teaches that people sin by necessity not by an act of free agency.

That would be either your misunderstanding of the meaning of Ro 5:18,

or your standard methodology of misrepresenting what you oppose.

It's been explained to you ad nauseum.
So your continued misrepresentation is seen only as intellectual dishonesty.

Take care of your unfinished business which is still on the table,
before adding more unfinished business to it.

 

[Calminian]

The context of Rom 5:19 is that of example not of corruption through inheritance.

Paul is not going to contradict Ezekiel who wrote...

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, ....

Yes, we inherited Adam's nature. We sin by nature and thus have to fight our nature in order to do good. When we don't fight our nature, we are culpable, individually. So yes, we do not pay directly for the sins of our fathers, but we have inherited the same nature our fathers inherited. We are all adam.

Just out of curiosity, do you take Genesis literally?