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T
Try this link. Like I stated earlier, it is one of the best takes on the parable I have ever seen.
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Hi Jesusisall,
There's a problem here. This passage from Mark 9 speaks of Gehenna, in Luke 16 the rich man is in Hades. These are two completely different places. Gehenna, also the Lake of Fire is the place of fiery torment, Hades is not. Gehenna is actually, the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom which is outside of Jerusalem. It is the place where the bodies were burned after king Nebuchadnezzar came and conquered Israel. It is also where the bodies will be burned when Christ returns and conquers the nations.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. {came...: Heb. came it upon my heart}
32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.
34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate. (Jer 7:31-34 KJV)
Isaiah also speaks of Gehenna,
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:22-24 KJV)
This passage from Isaiah is what Jesus is quoting in mark 9 and He calls it Gehenna, which is the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom. This is where the wicked will be destroyed.
However, this place is not Hades where the rich man is said to be.
There's a problem here. This passage from Mark 9 speaks of Gehenna, in Luke 16 the rich man is in Hades. These are two completely different places. Gehenna, also the Lake of Fire is the place of fiery torment, Hades is not. Gehenna is actually, the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom which is outside of Jerusalem. It is the place where the bodies were burned after king Nebuchadnezzar came and conquered Israel. It is also where the bodies will be burned when Christ returns and conquers the nations.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. {came...: Heb. came it upon my heart}
32 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.
33 And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.
34 Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate. (Jer 7:31-34 KJV)
Isaiah also speaks of Gehenna,
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:22-24 KJV)
This passage from Isaiah is what Jesus is quoting in mark 9 and He calls it Gehenna, which is the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom. This is where the wicked will be destroyed.
However, this place is not Hades where the rich man is said to be.
Your guys theory about hell is a burning furnace is unscriptural and it contradicts what the Bible says. The story of the rich man was an illustration and I, others, and the Bile proved it to be so. Scriptures don't lie, its the fact that you keep holding on to traditions from men rather then the commandments of God, the bible does not support you Sect view in Paganism.
You believe God to be unjust with his judgement. The god you serve is evil and cruel.
The God I believe in is, Just, and kind and the very essence of LOVE where yours is NOT.
You don't understand the word LOVE because your heart is treacherous.
You keep saying Cults? But it would seems that you have been diagnose with it your self, so as to relinquish it on to others to provid your selfestteem and ego, to be uplifted when in fact that your teachings come from the very source.
You haven't given any scriptures that support your theory and the ones that you did supply, Our in contradiction with others scriptures.
You believe God to be unjust with his judgement. The god you serve is evil and cruel.
The God I believe in is, Just, and kind and the very essence of LOVE where yours is NOT.
You don't understand the word LOVE because your heart is treacherous.
You keep saying Cults? But it would seems that you have been diagnose with it your self, so as to relinquish it on to others to provid your selfestteem and ego, to be uplifted when in fact that your teachings come from the very source.
You haven't given any scriptures that support your theory and the ones that you did supply, Our in contradiction with others scriptures.
Hi jdbear,
No, I don't believe that anyone, human or spirit will be tormented eternally. The reason is that everyone or everything that is destroyed will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10 KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14-15 KJV)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 KJV)
It seems that everything connected with wickedness is cast into the Lake of Fire. I understand the Lake of Fire to be Gehenna as John said the wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire and Jesus said the wicked are cast into Gehenna. Looking at this it seems to me these are the same place. Having said that Jeremiah prophesied that Gehenna would one day be restored and made holy to the Lord.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:38-40 KJV)
The valley shall be made holy to the Lord, therefore I don't think it's going to burn forever, thus no eternal torment.
No, I don't believe that anyone, human or spirit will be tormented eternally. The reason is that everyone or everything that is destroyed will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10 KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14-15 KJV)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 KJV)
It seems that everything connected with wickedness is cast into the Lake of Fire. I understand the Lake of Fire to be Gehenna as John said the wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire and Jesus said the wicked are cast into Gehenna. Looking at this it seems to me these are the same place. Having said that Jeremiah prophesied that Gehenna would one day be restored and made holy to the Lord.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:38-40 KJV)
The valley shall be made holy to the Lord, therefore I don't think it's going to burn forever, thus no eternal torment.
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T
The rich man was the Sadducee. He represented the Jews who had been blessed with Moses and the Prophets. Lazarus was the Gentile who had only been allowed to pick up a crumb of the Gospel here and there. Since the Jews were denying the Christ, the Christ was warning them that He was about to take the Gospel away from them and give it to the Gentiles who were embracing what little they were getting. This parable was the last chance Christ was giving the Jews. When they killed Stephen, Christ brought Paul into the picture and blinded the Jews. The Jews will remain blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles is accomplished.
Another problem if we understand the story of Lazarus and the rich man as an actual event is that it contradicts other Scriptures. Jesus said that the rich man was in Hades. The story says that the rich man was conscious, felt pain, communicated, had emotions, and could reason. However, the Old Testament says exactly the opposite.
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Isa 38:18 KJV)
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (Psa 88:10 KJV)
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Psa 6:5 KJV)
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD. (Psa 115:17-18 KJV)
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. {help: or, salvation}
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Psa 146:2-4 KJV)
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (Ecc 9:3-6 KJV)
From these passages we can see that the dead, cannot praise God, know nothing, have no memory, have no thoughts, have no love or hatred, and have no memory of God. These passages show that the story of the rich man cannot be an actual event.
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. (Isa 38:18 KJV)
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. (Psa 88:10 KJV)
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Psa 6:5 KJV)
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD. (Psa 115:17-18 KJV)
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. {help: or, salvation}
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Psa 146:2-4 KJV)
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (Ecc 9:3-6 KJV)
From these passages we can see that the dead, cannot praise God, know nothing, have no memory, have no thoughts, have no love or hatred, and have no memory of God. These passages show that the story of the rich man cannot be an actual event.
Hi jdbear,
you're welcome. I've looked at the word age some more and it use of finite periods of time, so, it may not be that it could last forever. However, in this passage it is translated ages of ages, which I believe means a long time. The torment could be torment or testing of some sort. We're not really told what the torment is, however, I think the phrase "day and night" just means continuously. I think the passage is saying they will be torment/tested continually for a long period of time
you're welcome. I've looked at the word age some more and it use of finite periods of time, so, it may not be that it could last forever. However, in this passage it is translated ages of ages, which I believe means a long time. The torment could be torment or testing of some sort. We're not really told what the torment is, however, I think the phrase "day and night" just means continuously. I think the passage is saying they will be torment/tested continually for a long period of time
