When does the rapture occur?

john832 · Oct 1, 2014

Well, for one thing...

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

When we go to Daniel and read...

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The end did not come in 1290 days after 70 AD.

Jesus also said...

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now if the AoD occurred in 70 AD, this doesn't work because the difficulties suffered in the Simon bar Kochba revolt in 132AD were much more severe than those in 70AD. Hitler and Stalin were the most severe to date. Stalin put to death at least 10 million Jews in his pograms. That does not get a lot of press because Stalin was an ally during WWII.

And after the 3-1/3 year tribulation, then when did this happen?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

It hasn't yet, the second coming is still future.

PlainWord · Oct 1, 2014

Wall said:

Which Lord? God the Father is most often referred to as Lord in the OT. The word pairings "Lord" and "Jesus" never appear together in the OT. The word pairings, "Lord" and "Christ" never appear together in the OT.

Jesus and the Father are both referred to as "Lord" in the NT, however, when Paul uses the title "Lord" to discuss Jesus, he most often includes "Christ" or "Jesus" with the word "Lord" or it is clear from the context. Here are a few examples:

Romans 1:3 NKJV

concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh

Romans 4:24 NKJV

but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,

1 Thessalonians 1:1 NKJV

Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:2 NKJV

for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus

However, when Paul uses the word, "LORD" without invoking the name of Jesus or Christ, He is speaking of God the Father. Some examples of Paul using LORD to describe the Father:

Romans 9:29 NKJV

And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah."

Romans 11:3 NKJV

"Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"?

1 Thessalonians 4:6 NKJV

that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.

Now look at the famous "Rapture" passage and correctly identify which of the Trinity is coming. We see in verse 14 that it is God, the Father, who is coming. Therefore, all uses of the word, "Lord" in the below passages refer to the Father and not the Son.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord (GOD), that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself (GOD) will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord (GOD).

It is the "Trumpet of GOD" not the "Trumpet of Christ." The "Lord Himself" is GOD THE FATHER, not Jesus the Son.

Now see if this famous passage makes sense with the correct member of the Trinity??

2 Corinthians 5:8 NKJV

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord (GOD).

Paul does not invoke the name of Jesus or Christ in the above, therefore Paul is discussing the Father. The Day of the Lord is an OT concept and it is used to describe the return of God the Father and the execution of His Wrath and Judgment. If you read on in 1 Thes 5 you see that Paul also was referring to the event he discusses in 1 Thes 4 as the Day of the Lord, thus providing further proof of the FATHER returning.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Paul also uses the term, "DAY OF CHRIST" in 2 Thes 2:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Paul clearly identifies the above as "the Day of Christ." The context is clear. The gathering is mentioned. This "gathering" agrees perfectly with Jesus' own description of His return in Mat 24:

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The above is to be distinguished from the Day of the Lord. Now let's look at Peter's description of the END from 2 Peter 3. Peter calls the below the Day of the Lord and also, the "DAY OF GOD." This is clear evidence of the same event distinguished from the return of Christ.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

What I am suggesting to you is there are two events, the Day of the Lord (GOD) and the Day of Christ. When Christ comes, HE GATHERS. When the FATHER comes, HE "RAPTURES."

Sola_Scriptura · Oct 1, 2014

There is no 'secret rapture' before a '7 year tribulation'. Study the information in the attached links.

Bible verses about 'the Rapture'
Secret Rapture Theory - Seven Year Tribulation

God Bless

PlainWord · Oct 1, 2014

Gary,

Good. But it isn't going to go down like that. Nobody is going to appear personally to you claiming to be Christ. Demons are going to go out claiming Christ is here and to follow them to "Christ." This is how Christ HIMSELF says it's gonna go down.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

So there will be false "messengers" sent out. They will show miracles to "prove" they are angels. But beware who these angels are working for.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

They will use unrighteous deception as Paul confirms.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This has not yet happened. Part of this unrighteous deception is the Pre-Trib Rapture. Satan has deceived many in our churches over this false doctrine. Satan has successfully convinced many good Christians that the real Christ comes first. Satan has reversed the order of appearances and I believe will use this to his advantage when the time comes.

To recap, Satan sends out demonic messengers telling BELIEVERS that Christ has returned. But Christ tells us He isn't coming like that as you point out. Christ returns like the flash of lightening and there will be no doubt about it for those of us still alive and on earth. But sadly, many CHRISTIANS will be deceived and end up as the Great Multitude (Rev 7).

john832 · Oct 1, 2014

PlainWord said:

Gary,

Good. But it isn't going to go down like that. Nobody is going to appear personally to you claiming to be Christ. Demons are going to go out claiming Christ is here and to follow them to "Christ." This is how Christ HIMSELF says it's gonna go down.

23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.

26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

So there will be false "messengers" sent out. They will show miracles to "prove" they are angels. But beware who these angels are working for.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

They will use unrighteous deception as Paul confirms.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

This has not yet happened. Part of this unrighteous deception is the Pre-Trib Rapture. Satan has deceived many in our churches over this false doctrine. Satan has successfully convinced many good Christians that the real Christ comes first. Satan has reversed the order of appearances and I believe will use this to his advantage when the time comes.

To recap, Satan sends out demonic messengers telling BELIEVERS that Christ has returned. But Christ tells us He isn't coming like that as you point out. Christ returns like the flash of lightening and there will be no doubt about it for those of us still alive and on earth. But sadly, many CHRISTIANS will be deceived and end up as the Great Multitude (Rev 7).

Excellent. I think many read this scripture wrong...

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The many will not be claiming that they are Christ, they are going to say that Jesus is the Christ, but deceive many with false doctrine.

GaryA · Oct 1, 2014

PlainWord said:

... ... ... ... ...

Try again...?

GRA said:

Better?

Kencore · Oct 2, 2014

9O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
10Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Arial, Liberation Sans, FreeSans, sans-serif]He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. Isaiah 40: 9-11[/FONT]
I Believe this is when Jesus comes back for His second coming. Because He's talking about Jerusalem and Judah and He seems anxious for them to say that He is God! Also the reward that is with Him is the church.

birdie · Oct 2, 2014

New Testament writers were not responsible for the scripture content. The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible, and the Holy Spirit is not confused about how soon Christ returns in whatever fashion that is. I have heard people in congregations espouse this idea pretty frequently, that early Christians thought Jesus would come back way sooner, and they base it on Bible scripture. It is as if the content of the Bible was a product of the writers' historical limitations and confused minds. Rather, the Bible teaches that all scripture is inspired by God, and is not confused, but useful for teaching.

PlainWord · Oct 2, 2014

john832 said:

Thanks John. This Rapture movie which comes out Friday is part of Satan's plan too. Satan is reinforcing the lie. I do believe the "Hour of Trial" spoken of in Rev 3:10 and the "Evil Day" spoken of in Eph 6:13 are coming soon.

PlainWord · Oct 2, 2014

GaryA said:

Yes!! I have no worries about you being deceived by the False One, Gary. You have received the Love of the Truth.

john832 · Oct 2, 2014

birdie said:

Well, that may be true, but Paul thought it would occur in his lifetime...

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ did not come in his lifetime.

john832 · Oct 2, 2014

PlainWord said:

So do I. The rapture (false) doctrine is going to bring disillusion to many who expect to be wafted off before the Tribulation. In reality, many will go through the Tribulation...

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Many will die...

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

There is a group that is protected, but they are taken as human beings, to a place of safety on the earth...

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

protected for 3-1/2 years. Who are these? A portion of the church. Which part? Scripture does not clearly differentiate, but we do read this...

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And we read this...

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Many people like to try to apply this to the return of Christ but it doesn't fit. If you were to see Christ coming down to the earth, would your first thought be to run into your house and grab your "stuff"? No, of course not but if you were instructed to leave where you are and go to a desert place (the word wilderness in Rev 12:14 actually means desert) you might be tempted to go back in your house and get a change of underwear and a toothbrush.

notuptome · Oct 2, 2014

We shall see. If I live long enough to die then it won't matter. If my Lord returns in the air today I'm ready to go in the twinkling of an eye.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

PlainWord · Oct 2, 2014

notuptome said:

Rog,

Just be sure to not go voluntarily. Remember what Christ said? If they say He's in the desert or the inner rooms, do NOT believe and do NOT go forth!! If you are taken by force that's fine, just don't go out when someone tells you Christ is here, because it won't be him. Don't go even if they say they are Angels sent by Christ to gather you. They will be able to do miracles and be very convincing. The "Rapture" is supposed to be involuntary, so at least stick with that and you should be okay.

konroh · Oct 3, 2014

When Jesus says that He will send His angels to the four corners of the earth to gather the elect, it would be pretty silly to think that one could deny the angels and the power of the Son of man by refusing to go. If you're elect, you're going.

PlainWord · Oct 3, 2014

konroh said:

If you go for the wrong angels, those sent to deceive, you are a dead man walking. Remember, Paul gives us the correct order of who comes first and that the one who comes first comes to deceive using unrighteous means.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish...

The "pre-trib rapture fantasy" is an "any means."

Wall · Oct 4, 2014

PlainWord said:

Wall,

I generally agree with most of what you said above. However...

...not sure I agree 1 Cor 15 "twinkling of the eye" event changing of the living occurs before the Millennium. I see it as after the millennium and part of the final resurrection. Note that there is no mention of Christ or His gathering in 1 Cor 15:50-52? No mention of angels. Further, this is the ONLY passage that refers to a "last trumpet."

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Therefore, I see this is the FINAL resurrection of those who did not rule with Christ - those who were asleep for 1,000+ years.

Do you believe the 1Cor.15 event and the 1Thes4 are one in the same? Do you then believe the DAY OF THE LORD will happen after the 1000yr period of rest?

Mem · Oct 4, 2014

Wall said:

The Day of the LORD is a terrible day, as Amos 5:18 says,

What sorrow awaits you who say, "If only the day of the LORD were here!" You have no idea what you are wishing for. That day will bring darkness, not light.

Wall · Oct 4, 2014

Mem said:

Yes Mem. But only for the bad guys. Gods people will be protected from the wrath

1 THESSALONIANS 5 [8] But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. [9] FOR GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

REVELATION 16 [1] And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to THE SEVEN ANGELS, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of THE WRATH OF GOD upon the earth. [2] And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

REVELATION 15 [7] And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of THE WRATH OF GOD, who liveth for ever and ever. [8] And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.

7th trumpet – the last trumpet {1Cor.15} to be blown

REVELATION 15 [1] And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, SEVEN ANGELS HAVING THE SEVEN LAST PLAGUES; for in them is filled up THE WRATH OF GOD. [2] And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

ISAIAH 13 [8]And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. [9] Behold, THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

ZEPHANIAH 1 [14] THE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [15] THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. [18] Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Verse 16 “A day of the trumpet”= last trumet to be blown = as found in 1Cor15

Mem · Oct 4, 2014

I understand, but could not the changing to incorruptible be what saves us from that judgment, for as it is written the LORD is a refining fire ( that separates the pure from the dross). As exampled in Daniels account of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego not being consumed though they were in the midst of the fire. Also where consensus is the understanding of the rapture is that the ones taken be the fortunate, could it not be that the one left is such blessed to remain while the other beside him is consumed? This would correlate that 1Thes:4 and 1Cor:15 are the same event, if 1Thes:4 can be reconciled with a clarification in the conjunctive phrasing?

When does the rapture occur?

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