When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
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Job knew his changing {1Cor.15} would be on the Day of the Lord
JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.
Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come
2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation
ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.
Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come
2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation
ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Yeah, ive looked. No where did i find the gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye other than the 1Cor.15 scripture. What im saying is the gathering and the changing are one in the same.
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Mystery—last trumpet
REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Mystery—finished—seventh angel
REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.
REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As i said before, we do not fly off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. To the kingdom
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Mystery—last trumpet
REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Mystery—finished—seventh angel
REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.
REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As i said before, we do not fly off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. To the kingdom
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JER. 16 [14] Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;[15] But, THE LORD LIVETH, THAT BROUGHT UP THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FROM THE LAND OF THE NORTH, AND FROM ALL THE LANDS WHITHER HE HAD DRIVEN THEM: AND I WILL BRING THEM AGAIN INTO THEIR LAND THAT I GAVE UNTO THEIR FATHERS.
He doesnt bring us to heaven
He doesnt bring us to heaven
Glad we agree on the twinkling
...
I believe there is a good chance that the 1 Thes 4 event and the 1 Cor 15 event occur at relatively the same time. However, I am not prepared to state this as fact since we have no passage which discusses the Lord's return with the transformation. If you look at the 1 Cor 15 event, you will see virtually nothing that ties it to the return of the Lord other than there is a trumpet, the LAST trumpet to be exact. The passages which discuss the Lord's return do NOT identify it at the Last Trumpet. Some of them do suggest the Lord returns at the 7th trumpet. But is the 7th trumpet and the Last trumpet the same trumpet? We don't know, we assume.
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
If you look at the above, you will find none of these:
The Lord
The Lord's return
Angels
The Clouds of heaven
In the Air
4 Winds
Dark skies
Gathering
Elect
There is a resurrection mentioned above which is also mentioned at 1 Thes 4 but if you look closely at 1 Thes 4 you will find that this return is the return of God, the Father, and not the Son. It is possible that the Father and Son return together and it is also possible that they don't. Just saying... We should state fact when the scripture is clear and we should state theory, when it isn't. The Pre-Tribber state their Rapture Theory as Fact when it is nothing more than wild speculation as few of the key tenants of their theory are clearly stated.
...I believe there is a good chance that the 1 Thes 4 event and the 1 Cor 15 event occur at relatively the same time. However, I am not prepared to state this as fact since we have no passage which discusses the Lord's return with the transformation. If you look at the 1 Cor 15 event, you will see virtually nothing that ties it to the return of the Lord other than there is a trumpet, the LAST trumpet to be exact. The passages which discuss the Lord's return do NOT identify it at the Last Trumpet. Some of them do suggest the Lord returns at the 7th trumpet. But is the 7th trumpet and the Last trumpet the same trumpet? We don't know, we assume.
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
If you look at the above, you will find none of these:
The Lord
The Lord's return
Angels
The Clouds of heaven
In the Air
4 Winds
Dark skies
Gathering
Elect
There is a resurrection mentioned above which is also mentioned at 1 Thes 4 but if you look closely at 1 Thes 4 you will find that this return is the return of God, the Father, and not the Son. It is possible that the Father and Son return together and it is also possible that they don't. Just saying...
We should state fact when the scripture is clear and we should state theory, when it isn't. The Pre-Tribber state their Rapture Theory as Fact when it is nothing more than wild speculation as few of the key tenants of their theory are clearly stated.
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[TABLE="width: 354"]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4-5[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor 15[/TD]
[TD]Mat 24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s) Present[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Voice of Anchangel[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Shout/ Loud Voice[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asleep Proceed Living[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Concept of Vengeance[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Watch/Be Ready[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Comes as a Thief[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Day of Lord/Christ[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Man of Sin Revealed First[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Falling Away happens first[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Warning about Deception[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sun and Moon Darkened[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Powers of Heaven Shaken[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stars from Heaven Fall[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Earth Mourns[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Power and Great Glory[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]No One Knows Day or Hour[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]One Taken, One Left[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Every Eye will See Him[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dead in Christ Resurrected[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Living "Changed"[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kingdom of God[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]In a moment/twinkling of eye[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last Trump or Trumpet[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Event[/TD]
[TD]1 Thes 4-5[/TD]
[TD]1 Cor 15[/TD]
[TD]Mat 24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints coming from heaven[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lord Coming[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Angel(s) Present[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Voice of Anchangel[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Shout/ Loud Voice[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alive Caught up/Gathered[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Meet in clouds in "air"[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Always be with the Lord[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timing Given[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Trumpet[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asleep Proceed Living[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Concept of Vengeance[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Watch/Be Ready[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Comes as a Thief[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Day of Lord/Christ[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Man of Sin Revealed First[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Falling Away happens first[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Warning about Deception[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sun and Moon Darkened[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Powers of Heaven Shaken[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stars from Heaven Fall[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Earth Mourns[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Power and Great Glory[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]No One Knows Day or Hour[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]One Taken, One Left[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Every Eye will See Him[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dead in Christ Resurrected[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Living "Changed"[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kingdom of God[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]In a moment/twinkling of eye[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Last Trump or Trumpet[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]x[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
PSALM 17 [13] ARISE, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: [14] From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes. [15] As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, WHEN I AWAKE, WITH THY LIKENESS.
ARISE,O LORD! At this time our mortal bodies will be changed {in the twinkling of an eye} and made in the likeness of Christ
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44] IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.......
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
New testament scriptures describing and verifying Psalm 17.
PSALM 132 [7] We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. [8] ARISE, O LORD, INTO THY REST; thou, and the ark of thy strength. [9] Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
ARISE,O LORD! At that same time our bodies are changed, Christ enters His resting place. The Rapturist would have you to believe that Christ at this time is going back to heaven and taking us with Him. You wont find that in scripture. Its just not there.
PSALM 132 [13] For the LORD hath chosen ZION; he hath desired it for his habitation. [14] This is MY REST FOR EVER: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. [15] I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. [16] I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
Where is that rest? Zion, Jerusalem, His Holy Mountain. The 1000yr period of rest and beyond
ARISE,O LORD! At this time our mortal bodies will be changed {in the twinkling of an eye} and made in the likeness of Christ
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44] IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.......
1 CORINTHIANS 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
New testament scriptures describing and verifying Psalm 17.
PSALM 132 [7] We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. [8] ARISE, O LORD, INTO THY REST; thou, and the ark of thy strength. [9] Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
ARISE,O LORD! At that same time our bodies are changed, Christ enters His resting place. The Rapturist would have you to believe that Christ at this time is going back to heaven and taking us with Him. You wont find that in scripture. Its just not there.
PSALM 132 [13] For the LORD hath chosen ZION; he hath desired it for his habitation. [14] This is MY REST FOR EVER: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. [15] I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread. [16] I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
Where is that rest? Zion, Jerusalem, His Holy Mountain. The 1000yr period of rest and beyond
I get the idea that believers in the rapture are of the notion that the earth will be destroyed so we can't be left here or we get destroyed with it. But the bible does not mention only earth passing away but also heaven too, and e everything becoming new. So if we leave here because earth is "passing away" then when does heaven "pass away"?
Also, I am sorry I need a few more course in English lit to use proper terminology of parts speech but could someone conjugate the in the clouds verse for me? For example is "in the clouds" used as an adverb or an adjective here?
Also, I am sorry I need a few more course in English lit to use proper terminology of parts speech but could someone conjugate the in the clouds verse for me? For example is "in the clouds" used as an adverb or an adjective here?
That's true, but there is virtually nothing to tie the two passages together. There is no translation of the living found in any passage where the Lord's return is discussed and in the 1 Cor 15 passage the Lord is NOT found, nor any of the accompanying descriptions except for a trumpet. The 1 Cor 15 passage calls it the "Last Trump" or trumpet. This is the only place in the whole Bible where the Last Trumpet is found. To me this speaks of FINALITY.
Now consider 2 Peter 3:
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Peter calls this the Day of God, so this is NOT the return of CHRIST unless they return together or the day is not literal.
So ask yourself, "When is it required that all be in indestructible bodies?" Could it be a split second, or a twinkling of the eye prior to the old earth being dissolved?
Now consider 2 Peter 3:
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Peter calls this the Day of God, so this is NOT the return of CHRIST unless they return together or the day is not literal.
So ask yourself, "When is it required that all be in indestructible bodies?" Could it be a split second, or a twinkling of the eye prior to the old earth being dissolved?
Your English is fine. You are correct. At best, the Pre-Trib view of all the views, has the most holes in it. At worst, it is a direct contradiction to the Word and is an "Addition to Scripture" which of course is a very dangerous thing. John warns us in one of the last verses in the Bible and the second to last warning found in the whole Bible this:
Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.
So the question is: Would adding an additional, earlier return of Christ to His Revelation of Jesus Christ rise to the level of adding to "these things?" I don't know but I would caution my Pre-Trib Rapture friends about this. Many of them think the Rapture occurs in Rev 4:1 which is just silly.
You raise a great question about the Clouds... More in a moment.
Rev 22:18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.
So the question is: Would adding an additional, earlier return of Christ to His Revelation of Jesus Christ rise to the level of adding to "these things?" I don't know but I would caution my Pre-Trib Rapture friends about this. Many of them think the Rapture occurs in Rev 4:1 which is just silly.
You raise a great question about the Clouds... More in a moment.
"The Clouds of Heaven" are not some fluffy rain clouds we see every day. They are very special clouds. I did a study on them once. The word, "Cloud" appears 96 times in the Bible.
Daniel 7:13 NKJV
"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Joel 2:2 NKJV
A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.
Nahum 1:3 NKJV
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
Zephaniah 1:15 NKJV
That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Did you see what Joel said?
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong
When you see the word, "like" used, this is a sign post telling you that a figurative/spiritual term is used. Therefore, these are NOT literal clouds. Instead, this is a Angelic or Holy Army.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
So, those who are caught up are caught up to join the heavenly army. They are like clouds because they ride white horses and come in big numbers.
The term CLOUDS OF HEAVEN appear just 4 times.
Mark 14:62 NKJV
Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.
Daniel 7:13 NKJV
"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Matthew 26:64 NKJV
Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
He comes WITH or He comes ON the Clouds of Heaven meaning He comes with the Armies of Heaven.
Daniel 7:13 NKJV
"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Joel 2:2 NKJV
A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.
Nahum 1:3 NKJV
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The Lord has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
Zephaniah 1:15 NKJV
That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Did you see what Joel said?
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong
When you see the word, "like" used, this is a sign post telling you that a figurative/spiritual term is used. Therefore, these are NOT literal clouds. Instead, this is a Angelic or Holy Army.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
So, those who are caught up are caught up to join the heavenly army. They are like clouds because they ride white horses and come in big numbers.
The term CLOUDS OF HEAVEN appear just 4 times.
Mark 14:62 NKJV
Jesus said, "I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.
Daniel 7:13 NKJV
"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Matthew 26:64 NKJV
Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
He comes WITH or He comes ON the Clouds of Heaven meaning He comes with the Armies of Heaven.
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The word clouds in 1Th 4 refers to clouds in the sky.
Notice the use of the word "like" in Joel2:2, "like the morning clouds", clearly a figure of speech
Yet this is different from 1 th4:17.
I would have hoped that you'd no longer be making this fallacious argument since I and many others refuted it a year ago.
Notice the use of the word "like" in Joel2:2, "like the morning clouds", clearly a figure of speech
Yet this is different from 1 th4:17.
I would have hoped that you'd no longer be making this fallacious argument since I and many others refuted it a year ago.
Refuted? But did you do so accurately? Did Jesus ascend into a white fluffy cloud? Were they terrestrial mesospheric, stratospheric, or tropospheric? Which type of cloud were they?
Did they look like this?
Or this?
or perhaps this?
You don't know, do you?
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
11. ...This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
Where did Jesus go? Heaven, right? So, tell me about the CLOUD. Again, was it a normal cloud like one pictured above? Do you envision that Christ was lifted up and met the cloud in the air or did the cloud come to the ground and lift him up? Once Jesus was in the cloud, did the cloud leave earth's atmosphere and accompany Jesus all the way to heaven or did Jesus merely pass through the cloud and the cloud stayed here?
The text clearly states that "the cloud received him out of their sight." So this "cloud" traveled at least as far up into the sky to no longer be visible with the naked eye from the ground, correct? Does this make the "cloud" special or do you still think it was a random every day cloud in the sky? I don't know of any cloud that travels that high.
Matthew 26:64 NKJV
Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Matthew 24:30 NKJV
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Daniel 7:13 NKJV
"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Notice the phrase, "Clouds of Heaven." Are these "Sky Clouds" or are they from/of heaven? Jesus comes on/with the Clouds of Heaven!! What else does Jesus come with?
Revelation 19:14 NKJV
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
What color are these armies from heaven? Could they be characterized as a cloud from a distance? Who appeared the moment Christ departed?
Acts 1:10 NKJV
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel...
How do you suppose these angels where able to arrive at the very moment Christ departed? They came here, right? Could they have been part of this cloud? What color were their clothes? These passage are all about the Lord's return and all involve clouds, including this one.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
So, if these clouds are the Armies of Heaven then your rapture theory is destroyed. The Lord returns once with His army PERIOD, end of story.
Did they look like this?
Or this?
or perhaps this?
You don't know, do you?
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
11. ...This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
Where did Jesus go? Heaven, right? So, tell me about the CLOUD. Again, was it a normal cloud like one pictured above? Do you envision that Christ was lifted up and met the cloud in the air or did the cloud come to the ground and lift him up? Once Jesus was in the cloud, did the cloud leave earth's atmosphere and accompany Jesus all the way to heaven or did Jesus merely pass through the cloud and the cloud stayed here?
The text clearly states that "the cloud received him out of their sight." So this "cloud" traveled at least as far up into the sky to no longer be visible with the naked eye from the ground, correct? Does this make the "cloud" special or do you still think it was a random every day cloud in the sky? I don't know of any cloud that travels that high.
Matthew 26:64 NKJV
Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Matthew 24:30 NKJV
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Daniel 7:13 NKJV
"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Notice the phrase, "Clouds of Heaven." Are these "Sky Clouds" or are they from/of heaven? Jesus comes on/with the Clouds of Heaven!! What else does Jesus come with?
Revelation 19:14 NKJV
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
What color are these armies from heaven? Could they be characterized as a cloud from a distance? Who appeared the moment Christ departed?
Acts 1:10 NKJV
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel...
How do you suppose these angels where able to arrive at the very moment Christ departed? They came here, right? Could they have been part of this cloud? What color were their clothes? These passage are all about the Lord's return and all involve clouds, including this one.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
So, if these clouds are the Armies of Heaven then your rapture theory is destroyed. The Lord returns once with His army PERIOD, end of story.
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Mat 13:
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.