We all benefit from the ritual sacrifice of the Lamb by faith. The Jews are in error if they think the benefit is exclusive to them as Christ blood is sufficient to cleanse all uncleanliness, not just the unclean 'elect'. The gentiles are in error if they believe the benefit is exclusive to them because grace does not replace law but is added.
What did the Jew receive first?
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Firstly, the Greek Word G473 was not translated as "on top of" in the bible.
Secondly, John 1:16 says grace in place of grace already given. That "grace already given" was prior to the grace out of Christ when He became flesh. That grace already given was recorded by Moses and understood by the Psalmist and the prophets. Examples in the OT are:
Exodus 34 The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.
Number 14 The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression.
Nehemiah 9 You are a gracious and merciful God.
Psalm 86 For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.....But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.
Joel 2 For he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love.
Secondly, John 1:16 says grace in place of grace already given. That "grace already given" was prior to the grace out of Christ when He became flesh. That grace already given was recorded by Moses and understood by the Psalmist and the prophets. Examples in the OT are:
Exodus 34 The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.
Number 14 The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression.
Nehemiah 9 You are a gracious and merciful God.
Psalm 86 For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you.....But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.
Joel 2 For he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love.
I think we are arguing because one side believes that Christ came to change everything, so we can not rely on what God of the Old Testament said, that the division into what was before Christ and what came after was so extreme we can even question the ten commandments, the way they used blood for forgiveness, everything.
The other side feels that there is no division in scripture, it is all of one God. Christ made it better, building on what God the Father said. They believe "Jew first then gentile", not because Jew was more important, but that God felt the way to teach man about Himself was to make a race feel separate. When God put the races together pointing out God wanted all to be united under Him, to save all mankind without mankind separating themselves from others, it was hard for man to comprehend and they are still having trouble.
Posts that are arguing with each other are really arguing about what Christ changed. It takes a lot of digging into OT scripture to track every change. So the one side feels they can figure it out by simply the epistles and they copy and paste endlessly. The other side reads the epistles as the finish work of all that came before so all these copy and paste become only how it was at the end of the story, and they feel you can't figure out the ending right without knowing the beginning so you know what the end if talking about.
As long as one side of the argument refuses to relate the end with the beginning, it is sort of beating a dead horse. They refuse, and that is that, and they say their copy and paste proves they are right.
The other side feels that there is no division in scripture, it is all of one God. Christ made it better, building on what God the Father said. They believe "Jew first then gentile", not because Jew was more important, but that God felt the way to teach man about Himself was to make a race feel separate. When God put the races together pointing out God wanted all to be united under Him, to save all mankind without mankind separating themselves from others, it was hard for man to comprehend and they are still having trouble.
Posts that are arguing with each other are really arguing about what Christ changed. It takes a lot of digging into OT scripture to track every change. So the one side feels they can figure it out by simply the epistles and they copy and paste endlessly. The other side reads the epistles as the finish work of all that came before so all these copy and paste become only how it was at the end of the story, and they feel you can't figure out the ending right without knowing the beginning so you know what the end if talking about.
As long as one side of the argument refuses to relate the end with the beginning, it is sort of beating a dead horse. They refuse, and that is that, and they say their copy and paste proves they are right.
The NT presents grace in two ways:
1) The power of God effecting, causing rebirth, faith, salvation in the spiritual paralytic who brings nothing to the table, who is totally acted upon,
as the babe in natural birth is totally acted upon and has nothing to do with any of it.
2) This unmerited action of the power of God alone then results in turning from sin, and obedience to the NT commands and exhortations.
This obedience of saving faith is likewise the grace of God operating in the believer,
giving him power to obey.
Believing Jews and believing Gentiles are the one body of Christ in the NT church,
where they are joined both spiritually in Christ and physically in the assembly of themselves together.
Have I made these things any clearer for you?
1) The power of God effecting, causing rebirth, faith, salvation in the spiritual paralytic who brings nothing to the table, who is totally acted upon,
as the babe in natural birth is totally acted upon and has nothing to do with any of it.
2) This unmerited action of the power of God alone then results in turning from sin, and obedience to the NT commands and exhortations.
This obedience of saving faith is likewise the grace of God operating in the believer,
giving him power to obey.
Believing Jews and believing Gentiles are the one body of Christ in the NT church,
where they are joined both spiritually in Christ and physically in the assembly of themselves together.
Have I made these things any clearer for you?
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all there for your bible study.
try and keep up if you can. moses was not at acts 15, the law ,god gave to him was.
destroyed the temple in 70AD,(your quote) now how can you follow the full law of moses that requires a temple made from stone.
through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." what commandments saved you,
then follow this.9 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
when was a gentile ,welcome in a syngogue in 48 ad.
You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation,
( , ie pauls convertion.) the gentile just walked in off the street, even though the christain church was in hiding.
the question you asked was asked with v5 the forrmer tells you ,what was a gentile given give regarding rules.
5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."Acts 15
they could have said, keep the 10 commands or tell them to follow the full law,(but , they did not say this)
so why would paul be saying this in romans. 3
0 since God is one---who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith?
when was the law in your heart.
then why are you following law. or 10 comandment
there is no ,missunderstanding the old testament was stolen.
they stole the old testament and put next to the new. because when did a none christain jew
8 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me."
paul is a christain jew, believing in grace a gift
10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
Acts 15
through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." what commandments saved you,
try and keep up if you can. moses was not at acts 15, the law ,god gave to him was.
destroyed the temple in 70AD,(your quote) now how can you follow the full law of moses that requires a temple made from stone.
through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." what commandments saved you,
then follow this.9 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."
when was a gentile ,welcome in a syngogue in 48 ad.
You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation,
( , ie pauls convertion.) the gentile just walked in off the street, even though the christain church was in hiding.
the question you asked was asked with v5 the forrmer tells you ,what was a gentile given give regarding rules.
5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."Acts 15
they could have said, keep the 10 commands or tell them to follow the full law,(but , they did not say this)
so why would paul be saying this in romans. 3
0 since God is one---who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith?
when was the law in your heart.
then why are you following law. or 10 comandment
there is no ,missunderstanding the old testament was stolen.
they stole the old testament and put next to the new. because when did a none christain jew
8 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me."
paul is a christain jew, believing in grace a gift
10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
Acts 15
through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." what commandments saved you,
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Yes, she is distinguishing between the Biblical statement about the law and
the Biblical statement about the old covenant.
The Biblical statement about the old covenant is that it is obsolete (Heb 8:13).
While the Biblical statements about the law are
we are no longer under the law of Moses but are under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Mt 22:37-39),
the law has been set aside in the NT (Heb 7:18-19; Gal 5:6) and is fulfilled
in the law of Christ (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10).
the Biblical statement about the old covenant.
The Biblical statement about the old covenant is that it is obsolete (Heb 8:13).
While the Biblical statements about the law are
we are no longer under the law of Moses but are under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Mt 22:37-39),
the law has been set aside in the NT (Heb 7:18-19; Gal 5:6) and is fulfilled
in the law of Christ (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10).
You have made your position clearer. We agree that Jew and gentile is one body, what isn't clear about that is why you are so negative about the Jew? Perhaps our difference is that you only believe in the condemnation brought on the Jew through the ones who do not accept Christ has God turning his back completely on them, and from studying all Romans has to say about that I think there is a possibility God is protecting them in some way, but I do believe we are not to judge them. We can judge turning from Christ as Savior, but not their hearts.
I think, frankly, you re losing it with your idea of grace. Grace isn't the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit and what it does is the Holy Spirit. Grace shows us the power of God over any other power, I agree to that. Man can't take on himself what the grace of the Lord does.
We seem to be closer than I thought, but it bewilders me that you truly seem to feel you have all the correct answers, you don't have to search or listen to the Lord any more. I don't think either of us are so finished we don't have to search any more, or all the world can come to us with absolute assurance that we understand all.
I think, frankly, you re losing it with your idea of grace. Grace isn't the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit and what it does is the Holy Spirit. Grace shows us the power of God over any other power, I agree to that. Man can't take on himself what the grace of the Lord does.
We seem to be closer than I thought, but it bewilders me that you truly seem to feel you have all the correct answers, you don't have to search or listen to the Lord any more. I don't think either of us are so finished we don't have to search any more, or all the world can come to us with absolute assurance that we understand all.
Paul said he was not under the law, but was under the law of Christ, which is the law of God
(1Co 9:20-21).
Keeping in mind there is no precedence of Jew over Gentile in the church.
The NT makes clear what Christ changed in the words he spoke in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
through the NT writers; i.e.,
the priesthood (Heb 7:11-12),
the law (Mt 22:37-39; Heb 7:12, 18-19; Ro 13:8-10),
the old covenant (Heb 8:13).
It's not complicated.
All it requires is belief of the NT revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
throught the NT writers.
Unbelief is what makes it confusing.
(1Co 9:20-21).
Keeping in mind there is no precedence of Jew over Gentile in the church.
The NT makes clear what Christ changed in the words he spoke in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
through the NT writers; i.e.,
the priesthood (Heb 7:11-12),
the law (Mt 22:37-39; Heb 7:12, 18-19; Ro 13:8-10),
the old covenant (Heb 8:13).
It's not complicated.
All it requires is belief of the NT revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2)
throught the NT writers.
Unbelief is what makes it confusing.
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Don't know what you mean by that.
Grace is the power of God, acting in two ways:
1) alone and sovereignly, totally acting upon the individual with nothing required, as in rebirth, faith, salvation, and
2) in the obedience of the believer, giving him power to obey.
You have me confused with someone else.
Grace is the power of God, acting in two ways:
1) alone and sovereignly, totally acting upon the individual with nothing required, as in rebirth, faith, salvation, and
2) in the obedience of the believer, giving him power to obey.
You have me confused with someone else.
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Don't know what you mean by that.
Grace is the power of God, acting in two ways:
1) alone and sovereignly, totally acting upon the individual with nothing required, as in rebirth, faith, salvation, and
2) in the obedience of the believer, giving him power to obey.
You have me confused with someone else.
just posted this on another topic
Grace is the power of God, acting in two ways:
when did law introduced you to god. or take away your sin.
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!3John 1
and
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.7
John
and
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.1
Yes, and your statement was about the law being "obsolete."
She pointed out to you that what is "obsolete" is the old covenant. (Heb 8:13),
that the law has been "set aside" (Heb 7:18-19), etc.
The law has been "set aside" in the NT (Heb 7:18-19; Gal 5:6) and is fulfilled in the law of Christ (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10),
we are no longer under the law of Moses but are under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Mt 22:37-39).
The old covenant has been made "obsolete."
The law spoken of in the verses given above is the law of Moses.
She pointed out to you that what is "obsolete" is the old covenant. (Heb 8:13),
that the law has been "set aside" (Heb 7:18-19), etc.
The law has been "set aside" in the NT (Heb 7:18-19; Gal 5:6) and is fulfilled in the law of Christ (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10),
we are no longer under the law of Moses but are under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Mt 22:37-39).
The old covenant has been made "obsolete."
The law spoken of in the verses given above is the law of Moses.