What did the Jew receive first?

[just-me]

I really want this to be a learning thread rather than an arguing thread, so whoever wants to argue rather than learn and share, please do not contribute. Then we will see how much good this Bible study forum can be.

So the question is "what did the Jew receive before the Gentiles i.e. Greeks?"

Ephesians 3:1-6
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Dispensation=3622. oikonomia oy-kon-om-ee'-ah from 3623; administration (of a household or estate); specially, a (religious) "economy":--dispensation, stewardship.

Revelation=602. apokalupsis ap-ok-al'-oop-sis from 601; disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Mystery=3466. musterion moos-tay'-ree-on from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):--mystery.

Paul is saying that He knows that the Gentiles are included into religious rites. Are those rites the same as what the Jew's received previously, or are they different? If so, are the Gentiles grafted into the same promise that God gave to Israel?

Romans 1:14-16
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

 

[crossnote]

Paul never said to my knowledge that the Gentiles are included in religious rites.

Ephesians 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:


Galatians 6:13-16 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

To the OP...
Romans 9:4-5 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[just-me]

Paul never said to my knowledge that the Gentiles are included in religious rites.

I like the scriptures you posted, yet the Word "mystery" is intriguing to me. It is related to silence imposted by initiation into religious rites.
Mystery=3466. musterion moos-tay'-ree-on from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):--mystery.

Enough was told to the Gentiles in order for them to know there were religious rites. But it wasn't detailed, and was up to the Gentiles to search the scriptures to find the details of the religious rites given to the Jews. That's the way I see it.

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed ; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few." (Acts 17:11-12)

 

[Charlie24]

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. [SUP] [/SUP]Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal. 3:6-7

If we are the children of Abraham we must be entitled to everything as the Jew. Add to that we will be kings and priests.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev. 5:9-10

I would say those of faith whether Jew or Gentile will have the same rights. I also believe there will be a government with appointed leaders, Jews over Gentiles and Gentiles over Jews.

I believe the Jews will have their rule during the thousand year reign of Christ.

 

[jdbear]

Hi just me. Not sure if this is what you're looking for:

"...unto them (the Jewish people) were committed the oracles of God. " Ro.3:2

His word contained the mystery of how Gentiles would be fellow heirs along with Jews.

 

[crossnote]

I like the scriptures you posted, yet the Word "mystery" is intriguing to me. It is related to silence imposted by initiation into religious rites.
Mystery=3466. musterion moos-tay'-ree-on from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):--mystery.

Enough was told to the Gentiles in order for them to know there were religious rites. But it wasn't detailed, and was up to the Gentiles to search the scriptures to find the details of the religious rites given to the Jews. That's the way I see it.

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed ; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few." (Acts 17:11-12)

The normal meaning of mystery in the NT is that which was not revealed beforehand but now is.
Paul had revealed several of these...''one new man'', "'Christ in you'' ''rapture'' and others, all of which were not revealed in the OT..

 

[Mem]

There is a religious rite of the Hebrews coming up, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, that we benefit from, not the we any longer have to perform the rite as much as we do observe it. The holiest day of the year, in which the high priest is permitted to enter behind the veil into the holy of holiest to offer sacrifice upon the kapporet (the cover of the Ark of the Covenant). The Hebrews were required to do this yearly. There two goats used, one to sprinkle the upon the kapporet and the other there was tied a scarlet string around its neck and sent out into the wilderness. It is said the string then turned white, however, it is said that 40 years before the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., the string failed to turn white.

I am sure this is because we are to trust that the LORD's sacrifice to have been well sufficient to atone for all sin.

This is the study of which I have drawn this info, from John Parsons, a messianic believer. He is well versed in logic and reasoning, and presents all facets of Jewish study and traditions, some he subscribes to and some he does not, but he does bring them up anyway.

Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement

 

[just-me]

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal. 3:6-7

If we are the children of Abraham we must be entitled to everything as the Jew. Add to that we will be kings and priests.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev. 5:9-10

I would say those of faith whether Jew or Gentile will have the same rights. I also believe there will be a government with appointed leaders, Jews over Gentiles and Gentiles over Jews.

I believe the Jews will have their rule during the thousand year reign of Christ.

Thanks. What I am interested in however, is what the Jew received first before the Gentiles were involved.

 

[just-me]

Hi just me. Not sure if this is what you're looking for:

"...unto them (the Jewish people) were committed the oracles of God. " Ro.3:2

His word contained the mystery of how Gentiles would be fellow heirs along with Jews.

Thanks. I think that is a good verse to recognize.

oracles=3051. logion log'-ee-on neuter of 3052; an utterance (of God):--oracle.

3052. logios log'-ee-os from 3056; fluent, i.e. an orator:--eloquent.

3056. logos log'-os from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive;

The the next question would be ......... What was the "utterance" i.e oracle of God that was recognized by the Jew before the Gentile?

The CJB says that teh "Jews were untrusted with the very words of God."

 

[just-me]

The normal meaning of mystery in the NT is that which was not revealed beforehand but now is.
Paul had revealed several of these...''one new man'', "'Christ in you'' ''rapture'' and others, all of which were not revealed in the OT..

There is no other word to discribe mystery in the Bible other than what I posted. "Musterion" related to religious rites that were once hidden from the Gentiles and revealed to Paul that the Gentiles were now included by eh grace of Jesus Christ. That situation seems to have been hidden before Paul was given the understanding of the inclusion of the Gentiles.

 

[just-me]

There is a religious rite of the Hebrews coming up, Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, that we benefit from, not the we any longer have to perform the rite as much as we do observe it. The holiest day of the year, in which the high priest is permitted to enter behind the veil into the holy of holiest to offer sacrifice upon the kapporet (the cover of the Ark of the Covenant). The Hebrews were required to do this yearly. There two goats used, one to sprinkle the upon the kapporet and the other there was tied a scarlet string around its neck and sent out into the wilderness. It is said the string then turned white, however, it is said that 40 years before the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., the string failed to turn white.

I am sure this is because we are to trust that the LORD's sacrifice to have been well sufficient to atone for all sin.

This is the study of which I have drawn this info, from John Parsons, a messianic believer. He is well versed in logic and reasoning, and presents all facets of Jewish study and traditions, some he subscribes to and some he does not, but he does bring them up anyway.

Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement

Great. As Gentile believes, it is important for us to understand the Spiritual relevance of the physical aspects of scripture given to the Israelites long before Jesus was born in the flesh. This confirms that the works of the law mean nothing by themselves, but by faith we increase in the knowledge of our Lord through this understanding. Wonderful. Thank you.

 

[Elin]

I really want this to be a learning thread rather than an arguing thread, so whoever wants to argue rather than learn and share, please do not contribute. Then we will see how much good this Bible study forum can be.

So the question is "what did the Jew receive before the Gentiles i.e. Greeks?"

Ephesians 3:1-6
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Dispensation=3622. oikonomia oy-kon-om-ee'-ah from 3623; administration (of a household or estate); specially, a (religious) "economy":--dispensation, stewardship.

Revelation=602. apokalupsis ap-ok-al'-oop-sis from 601; disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Mystery=3466. musterion moos-tay'-ree-on from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):--mystery.

Wrong definition for Biblical meaning of "mystery" in the NT.

A mystery is something that had not been revealed before, not something that was incomprehensible,
or even worse, an initiation into a religious rite.

Paul is saying that He knows that the Gentiles are included into religious rites.

No, Paul is referring to believing Gentiles in the NT receiving divine truths never before revealed.

Are those rites the same as what the Jew's received previously, or are they different?

Your question is irrelevant.

Mystery in the NT does not mean religious rites.

Paul is not speaking of religious rites, but of divine truths never before revealed.

Your misunderstanding of the meaning of "mystery" in the NT, which is the basis
of your whole point, means that anything you say based on it is in error, as is your post here.

 

[Jamal]

"Jews first" because they're already followers of God. ("Jews" being followers of God before Christ, not a race and not people who reject Jesus.)

 

[jdbear]

Thanks. I think that is a good verse to recognize.

oracles=3051. logion log'-ee-on neuter of 3052; an utterance (of God):--oracle.

3052. logios log'-ee-os from 3056; fluent, i.e. an orator:--eloquent.

3056. logos log'-os from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive;

The the next question would be ......... What was the "utterance" i.e oracle of God that was recognized by the Jew before the Gentile?

The CJB says that teh "Jews were untrusted with the very words of God."

The hidden meanings in the OT.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


"...the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.... to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us." Acts 7:37-38

"Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures... preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Lk.24:45,47

 

[Elin]

I like the scriptures you posted, yet the Word "mystery" is intriguing to me. It is related to silence imposted by initiation into religious rites.
Mystery=3466. musterion moos-tay'-ree-on from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):--mystery.

Nope. . .that is not the NT meaning of "mystery," that is it's pagan meaning.

Such ignorance!

Enough was told to the Gentiles in order for them to know there were religious rites. But it wasn't detailed, and was up to the Gentiles to search the scriptures to find the details of the religious rites given to the Jews. That's the way I see it.

Your erroneous attempt to insert religious rites into Paul's statement by use of a wrong definition,
so that you may then link such rites back to the OT
and thereby establish the Mosaic law as a religious rite for the NT
is both obvious and a MISERABLE FAIL.

 

[Mem]

Actually, they were not followers of God, I understand they were idolaters up to Abram (although I cannot cite where I learned this). God called Abram out of his country, his kinsmen, and his fathers house, to show him blessing. The mystery, or what is incomprehensible, is God's blessing despite Abram's worthiness (or lack thereof). Why would God pour out blessing and heap up honor on such a person as this or anyone else? And the revelation is Pure Mercy, Love, and Grace.

 

[Elin]

There is no other word to discribe mystery in the Bible other than what I posted. "Musterion" related to religious rites that were once hidden from the Gentiles and revealed to Paul

You're mixing paganism with Christianity.

"Run, Forest, run!"

 

[Elin]

Actually, they were not followers of God, I understand they were idolaters up to Abram (although I cannot cite where I learned this). God called Abram out of his country, his kinsmen, and his fathers house, to show him blessing. The mystery, or what is incomprehensible, is God's blessing despite Abram's worthiness (or lack thereof). Why would God pour out blessing and heap up honor on such a person as this or anyone else? And the revelation is Pure Mercy, Love, and Grace.

Keeping in mind that the NT meaning of "mystery" is not incomprehensible, but simply an understandable divine truth never before revealed.

 

[Mem]

Keeping in mind that the NT meaning of "mystery" is not incomprehensible, but simply an understandable divine truth never before revealed.

The lexicon points to the Greek word (which is the original language of the NT) musterion;

3466 mystḗrion (the root of the English term, "mystery") – mystery. In the Bible, a "mystery" (3466 /mystḗrion) is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it.

 

[just-me]

Nope. . .that is not the NT meaning of "mystery," that is it's pagan meaning.

Such ignorance!


Your erroneous attempt to insert religious rites into Paul's statement by use of a wrong definition,
so that you may then link such rites back to the OT
and thereby establish the Mosaic law as a religious rite for the NT
is both obvious and a MISERABLE FAIL.

Evidently you have a problem with the Strong's concordance. This post is not meant for arguing, and your statements of ridicule are way out of line. If you want to contribute for edifications sake that's fine. If not keep your opinions to yourself.

From the OP

I really want this to be a learning thread rather than an arguing thread, so whoever wants to argue rather than learn and share, please do not contribute. Then we will see how much good this Bible study forum can be.